In light of recent outbreaks of measles and other vaccine preventable illnesses, and the refusal of anti-vaccination advocates to acknowledge the problem, I thought it was past time for this post.
Dear parents,
You are being lied to. The people who claim to be acting in the best interests of your children are putting their health and even lives at risk.
They say that measles isn’t a deadly disease.
But it is.
They say that chickenpox isn’t that big of a deal.
But it can be.
They say that the flu isn’t dangerous.
But it is.
They say that whooping cough isn’t so bad for kids to get.
But it is.
They say that vaccines aren’t that effective at preventing disease.
But 3 million children’s lives are saved every year by vaccination, and 2 million die every year from vaccine-preventable illnesses.
They say that “natural infection” is better than vaccination.
But they’re wrong.
They say that vaccines haven’t been rigorously tested for safety.
But vaccines are subjected to a higher level of scrutiny than any other medicine. For example, this study tested the safety and effectiveness of the pneumococcal vaccine in more than 37,868 children.
They will say that doctors won’t admit there are any side effects to vaccines.
But the side effects are well known, and except in very rare cases quite mild.
They say that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
It doesn’t. (The question of whether vaccines cause autism has been investigated in study after study, and they all show overwhelming evidence that they don’t.)
They say that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism.
It doesn’t, and it hasn’t been in most vaccines since 2001 anyway.
They say that the aluminum in vaccines (an adjuvant, or component of the vaccine designed to enhance the body’s immune response) is harmful to children.
But children consume more aluminum in natural breast milk than they do in vaccines, and far higher levels of aluminum are needed to cause harm.
They say that the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (and/or the “vaccine court”) proves that vaccines are harmful.
It doesn’t.
They say that the normal vaccine schedule is too difficult for a child’s immune system to cope with.
It isn’t.
They say that if other people’s children are vaccinated, there’s no need for their children to get vaccinated.
This is one of the most despicable arguments I’ve ever heard. First of all, vaccines aren’t always 100% effective, so it is possible for a vaccinated child to still become infected if exposed to a disease. Worse, there are some people who can’t receive vaccinations, because they are immune deficient, or because they are allergic to some component. Those people depend upon herd immunity to protect them. People who choose not to vaccinate their children against infectious diseases are putting not only their own children at risk, but also other people’s children.
They say that ‘natural’, ‘alternative’ remedies are better than science-based medicine.
They aren’t.
The truth is that vaccines are one of our greatest public health achievements, and one of the most important things you can do to protect your child.
I can predict exactly the sort of response I will be getting from the anti-vaccine activists. Because they can’t argue effectively against the overwhelming scientific evidence about vaccines, they will say that I work for Big Pharma. (I don’t and never have). They will say that I’m not a scientist (I am), and that I’m an “Agent 666” (I don’t know what that is, but I’m pretty sure that I’m not one).
None of these things are true, but they are the reflexive response by the anti-vaccine activists because they have no facts to back up their position. On some level, deep down, they must understand this, and are afraid of the implications, so they attack the messenger.
Why are they lying to you? Some are doing it for profit, trying to sell their alternative remedies by making you afraid of science-based medicine. I’m sure that many others within the anti-vaccine movement have genuinely good intentions, and do honestly believe that vaccines are harmful. But as a certain astrophysicist recently said “The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it”. In the case of vaccine truthers, this is not a good thing. Good intentions will not prevent microbes from infecting and harming people, and the message that vaccines are dangerous is having dire consequences. There are outbreaks of vaccine-preventable illnesses now throughout the United States because of unvaccinated children.
In only one respect is my message the same as the anti-vaccine activists: Educate yourself. But while they mean “Read all these websites that support our position”, I suggest you should learn what the scientific community says. Learn how the immune system works. Go read about the history of disease before vaccines, and talk to older people who grew up when polio, measles, and other diseases couldn’t be prevented. Go read about how vaccines are developed, and how they work. Read about Andrew Wakefield, and how his paper that claimed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism has been withdrawn, and his medical license has been revoked. Read the numerous, huge studies that have explicitly examined whether autism is caused by the vaccine…and found nothing. (While you’re at it, read about the ongoing research to determine what IS the cause—or causes —of autism, which is not helped by people continuing to insist that vaccines cause it).
That may seem like a lot of work, and scientific papers can seem intimidating to read. But reading scientific articles is a skill that can be mastered. Here’s a great resource for evaluating medical information on the internet, and I wrote a guide for non-scientists on how to read and understand the scientific literature. You owe it to your children, and to yourself, to thoroughly investigate the issue. Don’t rely on what some stranger on the internet says (not even me!). Read the scientific studies that I linked to in this post for yourself, and talk to your pediatricians. Despite what the anti-vaccine community is telling you, you don’t need to be afraid of the vaccines. You should instead be afraid of what happens without them.
Edited to add: This video is an outstanding summary of many of these issues. I encourage you to watch it.
“Humans try to make sense of the world by seeing patterns. When they see a disease or condition that tends to appear around the time a child is a year or so old, as autism does, and that is also the age that kids get particular shots, they want to put those things together. Parents watch kids more carefully after they get shots. Sometimes they pick up on symptoms then. Just because two things happen at the same time doesn’t mean that one caused the other. This is why we need careful scientific studies.”
Note: For people coming via a direct link, please also feel free to participate in a follow-up discussion
here.
1/13/15: Edited to update broken hyperlinks. If you find any additional broken links, please don’t hesitate to let me know. –JR
4/19/16: Edited again to update more broken hyperlinks. If you find more, keep letting us know and we’ll keep fixing them. –CM
Violent metaphors 
One concern with vaccinations that this article does not satisfactorily address are the effects of aluminum injected directly into the bloodstream. While the article notes that there is substantially more aluminum consumed through breast milk less than 1% of aluminum consumed orally makes it into the blood stream. During the first 6 months of life a baby is injected with about 4 mg of aluminum from vaccines and consumes about 10 mg from breastfeeding of which less than .1mg makes it into the blood stream. So more than 40 times as much aluminum makes it to the blood stream from the vaccines than from breastfeeding and in much more condensed intervals. There is no evidence that I am aware of demonstrating the safety of injected aluminum on children adults or even animals. Please send me any such papers you are aware of. Here is a paper that suggests the opposite. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819810/
I’m no expert, but it looks like the accepted safe level of aluminum injected intravenously is 1 mg per kg per day. Vaccines aren’t injected intravenously, but intramuscularly, and they don’t get all 4 mg of aluminum at once (even assuming they get 4 mg at all). But even so, if we assume a 2.2 pound baby, for the sake of argument, you’re talking about 4 days’ worth of aluminum in a year’s worth of vaccines.
As I said, though, I’m not an expert. Fortunately there are experts out there looking into questions like this. (They are, almost to a person, not ant-vaxers, which illustrates the lack of science behind the anti-vax movement.) Here is one study (not the first) to find that there is no significant risk from the aluminum in infant vaccines:
“The authors based their calculations on the series of vaccinations that deliver the maximal possible levels of aluminum during an infant’s first year of life and the assumption that infants would receive the entire recommended schedule of vaccines during this time. . . . Using the updated parameters, the authors found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.”
while engaging in a fairly contentious conversation with an old friend (and exceptionally conservative Catholic), I discovered that the Catholic church has actually stated that it is pro-vaccination for the welfare of the common good. Any Catholic that tries to claim religious objection is straight up lying or just plain ignorant. I don’t have the time or energy to re-read the dozens of articles that brought me to that information… but it is out there.
My biggest complaint is that there lacks longitudinal studies regarding vaccines. In light of studies showing that DES actually is connected to DNA changes in grandchildren of women who took it, how do we know that vaccines are not causing a slew of ills in this generation – the first born to highly vaccinated parents? My children are vaccinated, but each only had 1 MMR — then I had them titered to prove they responded, avoiding the additional vaccines (though if the vaccines do have epigenetic ramifications, my kids will still be sool.)
As much as either extreme of opinion would like to have a black and white topic, it just is not the reality. Any medical treatment comes with an element of risk. Balancing benefit and risk is just part of the job. It is up to the physician to provide information so an individual can make an informed choice. The physician should not choose for someone. Platitudes and bias should not be venues mixed with objective indifference. The herd benefits associated with vaccination does not justify seeing or treating people like cattle. People ultimately have a right to choose their own fates. Certainly white lies, obvious biases, misinformation, and loss of pragmatism polarizes in both directions, no matter which extreme.
Brilliant & moral opinion! More power 2 U!
For some values of “brilliant” and “moral”. Saying that the physician should not choose for someone is one of those “platitudes”. Physicians know quite a bit more about the pros and cons of vaccines than the rest of us. You trust them for many other issues but, magically, decide to not trust them on this? Ludicrous.
“The herd benefits associated with vaccination does not justify seeing or treating people like cattle.”
This is another example of “brilliant” for low values of brilliant. If “herd immunity” sounds so bad, talk about “group immunity”. IT’S THE SAME THING. Not treating people like cattle but people.
” People ultimately have a right to choose their own fates”
This sounds moral, right? It isn’t: choosing not to get vaccinated means one puts at risk not only his own life but also lives of people who can’t be vaccinated.
I agree. The “Right to Choose Your Own Fate” does not include opening the exit door on a passenger aircraft at 35 000 ft so you can try flying. It is interesting that the “Free Will” argument used to explain the presence of evil as well as an allpowerfull and loving God, also misses the point that one person’s will to kill someone violates the free will of their victims.
A very good analogy. I will steal it if you don’t mind. 🙂
Feel free. My epigrams are in the public domain!
“This is another example of “brilliant” for low values of brilliant. If “herd immunity” sounds so bad, talk about “group immunity”. IT’S THE SAME THING. Not treating people like cattle but people.”
There is also “community immunity.” It kind makes it known there is a social responsibility (plus it rhymes!).
I often tell folks who claim they are healthy without vaccinations to thank their responsible neighbors who vaccinate, because they are protecting that person and their family by maintaining their community’s immunity to disease.
Of course, I never get any kind of response.
I’m not anti-vaccine, BTW. I just don’t find dogma ever benefits anyone.
I grew up knowing several people who were polio survivors. They were all severely handicapped. Some were confined to wheelchairs, and some had to walk with double crutches or walkers. These people had been that way since childhood. My mother told me nightmare tales of public pools and parks, anywhere children gathered during summer, being closed due to “polio season.” This is a nightmare we have been spared from due to vaccines.
I also know a lady who contracted tetanus, and she can barely walk and barely talk. That woman has lost her quality of life due to a vaccine preventable illness.
People go on about how vaccines are killing us and all that other bullshit. Fact is, our life expectancy has DOUBLED in the last since 1900. That is attributable to modern science, and a lot of that modern science was the development of vaccines.
I don’t think that all Doctors, simply because they disagree, are lying to us. There has to be room (in this country and within the medical establishment), for dissent and critical analysis in order to gain a better grasp of the whole truth. There are two sides to the story and I personally avoid judging the personal medical decisions families make whether pro or con, as that is their civil right protected by the constitution…….For example, these three doctors, a handful of medical professionals amongst countless others out there, who object to the vaccination policy of our current health care system, seem to be well informed practitioners on the other side of the fence.
My son got the measles vaccine 7 days later had german measles it was all over his body and he was so sick , got the chicken pocks shot 1year later got shingles and almost died so to me I think this should be thought about way more!
It intrigues me that if we were talking about people in a far away “foreign” country advocating for denying women and children access to safe medical care (e.g. vaccines) we would view them as enemies of the West — not to mention enemies of reason and of humanity (e.g. The Taliban). Yet, for some reason, we accept that ignorant, fundamentalist, anti-science rhetoric within the West is okay… Frankly, those who irresponsibly advocate against vaccines are endangering children’s lives — they are openly supporting the maiming and killing of children (e.g. from measles). Why do we deplore it when children are intentionally blinded in India to be used for begging, yet if some ignorant hate-monger here at home allows measles to spread and blind children that it is somehow okay? It’s time to stand up to these people who spout hate and would even let children suffer and die (and endanger other people’s children). These are clear and present dangers – threats to our children right here in the West, right at this moment. I am much less (almost infinitely less…) likely to ever run into a Taliban terrorist spreading biological terror – than I am currently at risk of my child getting sick from one of these local fundamentalist zealots spreading misinformation and disease. We need to take these people to task every single time a preventable illness maims or kills someone. The real threat to our way of life – to our very lives and those of our children – are the ignorant, anti-science fundamentalists we have too long, too politely allowed to risk our lives and rights within our own borders. I am much less likely to ever run into a human slave trader who blinds children than I am currently at risk of my unborn child getting measles from a local Jenny-Mcarthy-inspired nitwit. Our lives are at much greater risk from stupidity here than from the monstrous terrorists our brave soldiers are off fighting abroad.
I vaccinate my children with caution. We do forgo a few. My oldest is 12 so we chose not to do the Gardasil and we also chose not to do flu shots. Only because they are fairly new. Also due to the severity of the flu this may change. I know there are risk associated with not getting a flu shot and we take as many precautions as possible. Of course we know that’s not good enough. I think of it this way. If my child was diagnosed with Autism due to a vaccination, while that is sad I would prefer that over my child’s death.
Obviously many of you didn’t pay much attention in science class when you were in high school. Also…. To the people who are against it and say that you’ve never had the flu… You’ll be saying that you wish you had got the vaccine when you are one of the 1000s that die from it or you’ll wish that you got your baby vaccinated for whooping cough when they die.
Scare tactic at it’s best. Doctors are actually taught this, you know? To coerce the parent into getting the vaccines and if it doesn’t work than frighten them with the thought of their child’s death “that could have been prevented!”
Also, there is that qoute from up top and so many people saying how doctors know much more than the university of google about vaccines/vaccination. Well that may be right in one aspect, they surely know more about VACCINATION, because they dose them out as a one size fits all and don’t bother to check the child’s Kidney function let alone if their sick. But actual VACCINES, probably not most doctors. It is well known that while in medical school they spend only one day if my memory serves me correctly ( regardless, it’s an extremely small amount of time) learning about vaccines, and a lot of it is spent teaching them what they Must do to convince ALL to vaccinate their children and themselves, and different scare tactics that are shown to work the best.
Lol, so what are your qualifications for doling out advice? Reading opinion blogs that match what you believe to be true? Even if only a day was spent on learning vaccines, I think I would still rather advice from a doctor with lots of education of biology and chemistry over fear mongering from sites like natural news.
The following was written by a physician in response to precisely that sort of uninformed comment:
“I added up time I spent learning immunology and infectious disease in the First Two Years of medical school. Without even counting the related fields of physiology, the respiratory system, gastroenterology, histology, neurology, etc, I came up with 920 hours of graduate education in immunolgy, microbiology, and infectious disease – and that’s before ever hitting the wards in 3rd and 4th years.
And of course that doesn’t even count the time spent in training by Family Practice, Pediatrics, or Internal Medicine residents.
If we presume that my (rather average) medical school was representative, then most doctors spend ~ 920 hours in graduate education in this field before ever being allowed to sit for the Step I Board Exam and, if we passed it, allowed onto wards and into clinics.
And all of that is miniscule compared to the amount of education involved for biomedical researchers in the field who are the ones figuring out these principles. We doctors need to know how to understand and apply those principles, since we don’t have to derive the background information ourselves. A PhD in the field would have easily spent 70-80 hrs/week in class, labs, and reading, at least 45 weeks per year, for about 4 years.
That’s 75x45x4= 13,500 hours of graduate education, not including Bachelor’s or Master’s Degrees. For a researcher with 10 years experience, that’s a minimum of 13,500 + (2080 hrs/yr x 10 yrs) = 34,300 hours of education, training, experience.
And not one moment of that is spent learning what doctors “Must do to convince ALL to vaccinate their children and themselves.”
Is that what you meant by “an extremely small amount of time learning about vaccines?”
So, I’m asking you:
How much time was spent studying these topics by the people from whom you get your information?”
How about just admitting that you are entirely wrong about how much time physicians learn about vaccines and how they work, to say nothing of the much greater time the immunology researchers spend learning about these topics?
Care to admit that you’re wrong, even just a little?
Interesting report by the cdc in March 2014 about the measles outbreak in CA. Vaccinated people “CARRY” the disease and pass it to unvaccinated people. Who should we be worried about when we have new babies, and immune compromised adults out in public?
your an idiot!
You’re, not your. Idiot.
A spelling mistake doth not an idiot make. Being an imbecile, ignoramus, moron, bonehead, halfwit, muttonhead, simpleton or cretin an idiot doth make.
Needlessly exposing your children to potentially fatal afflictions an idiot doth make.
Idiot.
Actually, I’m pretty sure mixing up your and you’re while trying to insult somebody’s intellect makes you an idiot. Especially considering its early middle school lessons maybe sooner. Those in glass houses.
Especially if you know anything about the devastation such diseases caused many decades ago, before vaccines…when entire families were wiped out or left with life long effects from them.
T, it’s “it’s,” not its” if you want to have a grammar battle, or you could just stay on topic.
Actually, it is “its” as it has been used in its possesive pronoun form.
Haha! If you’re going to call someone an idiot, try not to be so dumb about it.
I agree
Sorry but you’re the idiot. As you seem completely unable to assimilate the facts of scientific research, that it seems makes you the idiot or at the very least uneducated.
Site your reference, make sure it is from a reputable peer-reviewed source. Then we’ll talk.
“Cite.” The word is cite.
The words in blue text are links to sources. I encourage everyone to at least check out the measles links. Some of them are WHO (world health organization) pages which are very reliable
Why? You’ll ignore it.
Bonus: you do not know how links work…
That reminds me, why is The Lancet still considered a reputable journal? One of the stated reasons for them pulling Wakefield’s “study” is they discovered the review board he claimed oversaw his research did not in fact do so. This means this entire mess could have been prevented if they had bothered to make a 5 minute phone call to confirm anything about his study before publishing it.
The Lancet is considered respectable because of almost all of their other articles. They also have worked hard to show Dr. Wakefield’s fraudulent work.
It can be very difficult for journals to detect deliberate fraud if a researcher is lying to them. However, in this case the process worked: Wakefield’s deception was discovered and the paper was withdrawn.
If all it takes to be considered “unreliable” is to have made a single mistake at one point in time, there is no such thing as a reliable source … rendering everyone’s arguments invalid. Do you really believe this to be true? And why do I care, being that your beliefs are unreliable and invalid?
“Interesting report by the cdc in March 2014 about the measles outbreak in CA. Vaccinated people “CARRY” the disease and pass it to unvaccinated people. ”
Are you actually serious!!?? Vaccinated people do NOT carry the disease and pass it on to unvaccinated people. This is 100% incorrect and leads to more mis-information about the true facts. Re-read your source and stop spreading lies.
Read/study/research – dreacle – there is so much information not being spread
among the population… Or alternatively, you can just believe what you are told!!.
http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm
”This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.”
which doesn’t disprove the effectiveness of this vaccine, or speak against the vaccination of adult populations. Having just gone through a pertussis outbreak, the CDC’s recommendation to vaccinate children and parents of children is still quite fresh in my mind…..
So, Gary Richards, you think it is a good idea to spread pertussis through the population via vaccination? What about the babies you are trying to protect?
This reply is actually for Tony…are you implying that the vaccine causes pertussis? You do realize that the vaccine protects the recipient from pertussis and not makes that person a carrier. The FDA article cited above states that a vaccinated individual can still become infected, they just will not, you know, DIE…it is in no way saying that the vaccine itself spreads the disease…wow, I don’t even know where to start…
Absolutely need to vaccinate your kids. The likelihood that a vaccinated person will be a carrier is MUCH lower if more people are vaccinated because fewer people are walking around and aerosolizing their pathogens. To anyone who detracts from this, please see the links about herd immunity. That’s what it is and how it works. The likelihood that someone will be an infectious carrier if they are vaccinated is also much lower than if they are not vaccinated.
The fact that diseases can be spread even without presence of symptoms is actually a greater impetus to just get the vaccines.
The article you cited is about whooping cough, not measles. You can’t use them interchangeably. It also proves that if EVERYONE is immunized, then EVERYONE is protected. The study says the bacteria stays in the system for 6 weeks, meaning that even when people can’t get immunized, you only need to hold yourself back from sticking your fingers in their mouths for a maximum of 6 weeks.
But this study does refer to measles: http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/162/5/1036.abstract
The study above resulted from a measles outbreak at a college where they happened to have held a blood drive just prior to the outbreak. Therefore they were able to look at the blood pre and post exposure/infection. From those results, 70% of students whose pre-exposure PRN titers were between 120 and 1052, ended up having a serologically confirmed measles infection, but since their altered disease symptoms did not conform to the clinical measles case definition, they were categorized as non-cases during the outbreak. That would suggest that may have been capable of spreading it.
If I wear full plate armor, I’m protected, but I’m not invulnerable. The issue has become one of semantics; those words do not mean the same thing.
If I may cite in more complete context:”Animals that received an acellular pertussis vaccine had the bacteria in their airways for up to six weeks and were able to spread the infection to unvaccinated animals. In contrast, animals that received whole-cell vaccine cleared the bacteria within three weeks.
This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.”
It would appear that the whole cell form of the vaccine is better choice. I would point out as well that an active case of pertussis is going to release a lot more germs than an individual who as a result of vaccination, is actively fighting the disease and thus keeping the number of bacteria down.
“While the reasons for the increase in cases of whooping cough are not fully understood, multiple factors are likely involved, including diminished immunity from childhood pertussis vaccines, improved diagnostic testing, and increased reporting.”
Please try reading the rest of the article instead of copy/pasting out of context the part that confirms your bias–that’s academically sloppy and obvious.
This is a study on determining what is the best strategy to combat pertusis which was all-but wiped out. It’s also a comparison of whole cell and acelluar pertussis vaccines.
Those who have become naturally immune to common viruses and the flu can pick up the bacteria and infect those who arent. The point is if you have vaccinated your children and yourself you most likely will not contract the illness; however, babies will forever be susceptible to illness therefore when you have a baby don’t let people handle your child during cold & flu season and when dealing with your child wash your hands frequently. You completely twisted what the CDC said and therefore made a piss poor argument for anti-vaccinations.
Read your own quotation. It says that vaccinated individuals may still become infected, not that the vaccine infects them. This means that while they might get infected, they are frequently not symptomatic. Yes, they can spread it as much as the unvaccinated person who is symptomatic. So vaccinate.
dreacle,
Sorry you are misinformed. “Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants”
Pertussis Infection in Fully Vaccinated Children in Day-Care Centers, Israel.
“The research suggests that while the vaccine may keep people from getting sick, it doesn’t prevent them from spreading whooping cough — also known as pertussis — to others.” NBC News.
Would you like more? stop spreading misinformation
Actually YOU are wrong. The MMR vaccine just like the chicken pox virus CAN be spread from vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. If you are an adult receiving the shingles vaccine you cannot be around new born children or imunosppressed people who have not or cannot receive the varicella vaccine. This is included in the informational handout that your pediatrician should have given you to read before hand.
so what’s that tell you.. the vaccine is the problem.. I was born natural so were my children and we will stay natural. the rest can live in fear. end of rant!
No it doesn’t. Like all ailments, you should be away from others as you recover.
Did you bother to read even the press report? Here is the important part excerpted form the report ” Animals that received an acellular pertussis vaccine had the bacteria in their airways for up to six weeks and were able to spread the infection to unvaccinated animals. In contrast, animals that received whole-cell vaccine cleared the bacteria within three weeks.” That means if you got the whole cell vaccine, you cleared the bacteria in 3 weeks, and were not contagious after that. It took 6 weeks to clear the bacteria if you received the acellular vaccine, and so were contagious 3 weeks more than the whole cell vaccine. See also Universe25’s reply
Vaccinated people can absolutely catch and spread the diseases for which they are immunized.
They also will harbor the bacteria in their bodies for three weeks to a month or more, depending on the vaccine. Immune suppressed people are WARNED by doctors to avoid people who have recently been vaccinated for this reason.
Just look it up.
Actually, you’re very very wrong. It is a scientific fact that people who are vaccinated carry the diseases they are immunized for, for up to a month following immunization. The problem lies in that vaccinated people can carry the diseases without being “sick”, so unvaccinated children and adults with compromised immune systems are far more likely to catch these diseases from people who were recently vaccinated, than from people who have not been vaccinated. That is because people who have not been vaccinated and carry the disease are sick- so they don’t unknowingly carry the diseases around, like the people who think they’re protecting babies by getting vaccinated and then coming in contact with the child within a month of their vaccination. THEY are the ones passing the diseases around while unknowingly carrying them (mostly due to ignorance).
Many people carry the pathogens without getting sick. That is not only for the vaccinated. We are constantly fighting off illnesses without become symptomatic. Some illnesses are no longer contagious by the time symptoms appear. So this argument is a non starter.
Ahhh. So inadvertent mis-inoculation makes the overall immunity negated? Nope.
You’re a liar and an intellectually dishonest person. A vaccine is unable to spread contagion by the fact that it is a vaccine: it has been rendered unable to reproduce. It’s a culture of microbial eunuchs, you nonce.
Ooh… nice name-calling. 🙂 Try doing a bit of research into the oral polio vaccine (VACCINE!) used in Africa, India, and in the Middle East. Do a bit of research into all of the cases of polio that are not caused by the wild virus, but are caused by the vaccine itself. Nonce, indeed. 🙂
While you’re at it, just go to the websites for each of the vaccine manufacturers and read the inserts for each of the vaccines they produce. Nearly all of them list the disease they’re meant to protect against as a potential side effect. Nearly (if not all) list various forms pf autoimmune disease as a potential side effect (this I know is true, my son developed an autoimmune disease from the MMR… look on page 4, last paragraph of the MMR II insert on Merck’s website.)
Actually, this is true. I know because it happened to my children. When my daughter age 4 was given the mmr vaccine, my 2 yr old daughter broke out in a rash exactly 14 days after the older one was given the mmr. Also my nephew came to visit from out of state and arrived 4 days after the vaccine was given, and he stayed for a month. Excatly 2 weeks after coming into contact with my older daughter, he then broke out in a rash and slight fever. When I brought my daughter to the doctor they said it might be rubella. Then they explained that for 21 days after the vaccine is given, sometimes we can shed off the disease and give it to others. It turns out rubella isn’t really that big of a deal. Its just a rash and sometimes accompanied with fever. look it up…. Im down the middle with vaccines. Some I do, and others I don’t see a need for. Like for instance the hep-b vac that they give infant hours after they are born. Do you know how you get hep-b? unprotected sex and sharing dirty needles. Most infants I know don’t take part in this type of life style, scratch that, all infants. This article seems a bit off to me. He can’t argue all of his points. And Im pretty sure a family was rewarded money in court after determining their child was a victim of a vaccination injury, just last year. And maybe you should also check out where american children stand in health against the whole world. You may be surprised to find that 1 out of every 6 has some type of auto immune disease. I really don’t trust either side, so until I do, I will go with my gut.
More misinformation. Most Hep B infections are received as a child. It can live outside the body for a very long time. And Hep B works your liver over and leads to very debilitating diseases later in life.
And there is evidence that suggests our lack of parasites leads to an over active immune system when it comes to allergies and the such. Since we aren’t fending off worms we are over responding to other antigens.
You can get hep b from food handlers not properly washing hands after using the restroom, improperly washed vegetables, etc. Or many, MANY other ways. The stigma of “only dirty people get these dirty diseases, not me” is what keeps them going.
You absolutely cannot get hep B from food/water. Only A and E are transmissible via contaminated food and water. B and D must be transmitted via bodily fluid exchange, like HIV.
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/Pubs/viralhepatitis/index.aspx
Interesting report by the CDC in April 2014 about Ms. Cabrera being the actual size of a peanut. People with the “peanut-sized brain syndrome” fortunately are not contagious.
You waste our time. You insult Ms. Cabrera. Whatever I might think of her question, and it was a question, Lee, there was no need to call her childish names. Why not answer her question, or don’t you know how?
Here, here
Well if an unvaccinated child hadnt been running around infecting those who werent 100% immune we wouldnt have anyone carrying anything now would we.
You think its your choice not to vaccinate but you are putting other peoples children at risk. Children who have cancer and are been treated lets make sure they dont have a chance by letting deadly preventable diseases come back, yeah great job! Lets give that baby whooping cough and watch it fight for breath until its little body cant fight anymore. Tell the parents of that child or baby “but I had the right not to vaccinate” what do you think their response would be.
Im a childrens nurse and it makes me so angry when I see a child suffering from a disease and its complications that so easily could of been prevented. I wish we could put all you non vaccinators on an island and you can all have your natural diseases. The best bit is you will eventually all be killed by the harmless diseases and remove such stupidity from the gene pool. Harsh! Yeah but not as harsh as sentencing another child to death or disability for your personal choice. It isnt personal when it can impact others so much.
There is no middle ground vaccines are safe, there is no scientific proof that they cause autism. My brother is autistic Im not both vaccinated why with such similar genetics would it affect him but not me if vaccines are to blame.
And cherry picking articles to make your case against vaccines is laughable. I could cherry pick articles to back any lie I like. You either use the whole article or you dont use it at all.
I am sick and tired of the scaremongering from the idiots in our population. You dont want to vaccinate then go live away from everyone else so you cant hurt anyone.
Unfortunately reason, fact and common sense are absent here. These people pick and choose what “facts” they want to believe and end up with the insane ideas you’re reading about. Let’s just hope natural selection weeds out the idiots, because they seem to be multiplying and that doesn’t bode well for the rest of us.
Where do you work? Posting rants like this and wishing death upon people who don’t share your opinion is ridiculously unprofessional and can cost you your job. I for one would not want my child in your care, when you act like a five year old yourself.
You re a fool that wasn’t a rant. Facts were stated and death was wished upon no one. What you Did was a rant. Saying stupid things like “you can lose your job”. That is pettu because you had no facts of your own to come back with so in the end you lose. And I’ve had 12 yrs of experience dealing with autism so I am very educated on all this. Shame on you come back with facts and put your big boy pants on ok
Well unless the island with all the unvaccinated on it exists I really didnt wish death on any one. I simply stated that you would eventually be wiped out by disease eventually, while it will remove you from the gene pool. However the island doesnt exist, there you go cherry picking again it is really very silly.
And I have very strong opinions on vaccination because it breaks my heart for children to suffer. Many have to suffer because of a parents choice not to vaccinate be it their own or someone elses, the innocent suffer the stupidity of the adults.
Dont worry adults dont miss out with me I educate my friends and they have been vaccinated. I have boosters and titers done on a regular basis to maintain my immunity. Yes I had a serious allergic reaction to the flu shot which was unfortunate but I am one of the few. Unfortunately I cant have that one anymore. However I am fine with the rest. If someone gets sick after a vaccination it is a great sign your immune system is working. Your body is making those symptoms as it fights the invading pathogen however your body is safe to the dangerous effects of the disease itself as the diseas is inactivated/dead. So body aches and pains, a headache and stuffy nose arent so bad when you are saved the damage the disease can cause in the time it takes your body to mount defence and produce antibodies.
I have my opinion yes, I think it is dangerous and irresponsible not to vaccinate child or adult. As I see the devastation I have seen a baby die in ICU from whooping cough. I have seen a child lose her lower limbs and another become blind and deaf both from complications from measles. If they had veen vaccinated, and those around them in the babys case it could of been avoided. I dont apologise for my feelings and I dont wish death on anyone I see enough thankyou very much. I really hope that none of you have to experience the horror of a vpd. It isnt just a childhood disease its deadly.
I would absolutely want this individual to care for my children because s/he is passionate about protecting children from preventable illnesses. Seems that s/he is relying on scientific research to make an informed decision in the medical field and is frustrated by individuals who would KNOWINGLY choose to risk the health of other individuals. I wish more nurses and health care professionals would speak so passionately about the health of our most vulnerable.
So would I! That anger shows she cares and fights for her patients. My kIds are vaccinated, I was vaccinated and I KNOW I’m doing the right thing.
I appreciate your thoughts, but this could apply to the thousands upon thousands of children who are injured by vaccines. And the vaccines can be made safer, they could he working towards a test that could be done at birth to determine whether or not a child would likely have a hyper reaction to an over stimulated immune system, but they just keep saying there’s no dangers.
My son has a vax injury, so I have proof before my eyes everyday.
And I’ve never heard a person who has decided not to vaccinate their children, after much research shows the POTENTIAL for injury is there and cannot be denied, aim hurtful wishes about the health and well being of vaccinated children. But I hear so often from pro vax community that they wish “my son would get a serious vpd and die”. It’s totally horrible. He’s already been injured while I was trying to do “the right thing”, and now I must deal with death wishes for him? Or me??
There’s just too much information that points to a possible link to many autoimmune diseases from exposure to vaccines, or environmental toxins.
Here’s an article you should read in it’s entirety, as well as some of the studies it sites, conducted by medical professionals the world over.
“or environmental toxins”
I’m sorry for your son’s injury. I do wish that your son and the many who have been injured were not just a cost of doing business, or acceptable loss to big pharm. However, the causes of many of our medical issues right now are more likely due to our very unhealthy lifestyles, and environmental toxins. They are all over our world, and as a generality, humans are so unaware….
I feed my kids a healthy diet, are very active, and both deemed “healthy as a horse” by his doctor just before receiving the MMR vaccine that caused my eldest to develop a very serious autoimmune disease (which was linked to MMR and is even listed on the MMR manufacturer insert… feel free to go look it up, page 4, last paragraph).
I understand your hurt because I am subject to it, too. It is unacceptable to the general populace that your child may be the exception to the vaccination rule. It’s heart-breaking to be judged as an unconscionable parent/citizen for doing what you know is best for each individual child. Others have stated that parents who choose to not vaccinate clearly don’t care about children with cancer or other serious health issues. Nothing could be further from the truth. Three of our children have vaccine injuries. I suppose they would suggest that we sacrifice our children so the children with cancer can live. I wish I knew the best answer but, please, please don’t beat up on the parents who are doing exactly what you are… caring for their children in the very best way that they know how. You don’t know how badly it hurts.
when will we learn that toxins and dead animal and aborted fetal cells, and disease (vaccine ingredients) injected into our bodies-will never bring health. when will the GMO false vaccine science mind set be put to rest. To try to eradicate disease only brings more strands upon us. We have not eradicated disease, we have only renamed them all! I know many unvacinated HEALTHY people and even more UNHEALTHY diseased vaccinated people. I prefer to stay natural then contaminated! Thanks- but NO THANKS!! My three children were only sick after toxic filled vaccines; hence why I know opt out and have watched them become healthier for it. Found a peditrician who agrees with natural immunity and is very supportive of my choice and actually agrees with me. so I do believe that all the fear based opinions that trust in vaccines need to keep their opinions (because that is all that it is..) to themselves and back off of the unvaccinated (antivax) peoples CHOICE to trust in natural immunity! I’ve been on both sides of the fence- and truly understand health and immunity now and it will NEVER come from a science lab period! My LIFE, MY CHILDREN, MY CHOICE! no more debate, arugement over and out!
I’m going to just bolster your proof that autism is NOT caused by the vaccinations. I am the mother of twins, male/female. My son is diagnosed Autism Spectrum Disorder by several evaluations. His twin sister is not . She has been evaluated and re-evaluated to be certain it wasn’t missed due to girls being more difficult to see the milder forms. They got their vaccines on the same days. So, don’t you think that if it was the vaccines, they would both have Autism? Based on the theoretical approach of the vaccine debate being behind the cause. Oh, and they are sufficiently old enough to fall in the prior to 2001 full removal date. So, nope, that is not the culprit. Find something else to blame it on, but stop using Autism as a stage. It’s an insult to anyone who is the parent of a beautiful child with ASD!
Giving you a virtual high five Talkative Woman. As a fellow Mom with a son with ASD I am so happy to hear I am not alone in the knowledge that vaccines are not the issue!
Hi there talkative. As your twins are not identical this wouldn’t be proof. Even if they were identical this wouldn’t be proof one way or another. But I agree that your conclusion is still true.
Are my children that are twins 100% proof positive, no. Not just an example of one set will ever be. Sure, they are not identical, however, with that said, for a set of twins to be born, one Autistic, the other not. Well, that is rare from the information I have looked at upon it. Does it mean that it is impossible, no. You can possibly have the same scenario play out with identical twins. My main point is that Autism is not always genetic, and we don’t know all the potential environmental causes. One potential example are the pesticides that we use on our food. Do we really understand the effects on DNA at this point? What about the fact that there is ethylene glycol in our food? Engine coolant, how is that healthy? The point is that there are many possible contributors to environmental causes. Therefore simply blaming the vaccination is ludicrous, even if it is later proven that they do hold some responsibility in the source of Autism, I believe there are several factors that could be linked to it in the end. The question is simply which ones?
“What about the fact that there is ethylene glycol in our food? Engine coolant, how is that healthy?”
What foods contain ethylene glycol? Be specific and don’t mix it up with other types of glycol.
Takis, which is one example of chips, and yes, the research has been done into the difference. I don’t just spout off to spout off. But, wow, talk about not understanding the whole point, it was simply to point out that there are about a million sources of possibilities beyond genetics. There is no one in the parental family history prior to my son that has had Autism. Not even the hint of it.
But back to your question, I am someone who does research on things, from an abundance of sources, and don’t just quote one person’s statements. I am a mother, my son is Autistic, and he doesn’t have to take medications in order to function in this world. I have not taken the traditional approach with him, and he is doing remarkable. So, let his successes be proof. Am I saying that he is no longer Autistic because of diet and so on, no. But, I am saying that he is doing much better than he used to. Perhaps I am just willing to question everything we have been told in hopes that science was wrong. If that makes me a bad person for trying where so much science has failed, then so be it. But, my son is all the proof I need, and what works for your family, that is good enough for you. Am I asking you to try the things I do for my family? No. I am just simply placing the option of expanding your perspective before deciding that just vaccines are to blame for the increase in Autism diagnosis. Do we really disagree?
“Takis, which is one example of chips, and yes, the research has been done into the difference”
Evidence please, because I found nothing. And I am pretty sure the company that makes them would not be pleased with that kind of accusation.
“There is no one in the parental family history prior to my son that has had Autism. Not even the hint of it.”
There is no history of obstructive hypertrophic cadiomyopathy in our family. None. But my oldest kid had surgery for it two years ago. He even had a genetic screen for eighteen genetic sequences that were then known to cause the abnormal heart muscle growth. He had none of them. The genetics doctor did say it could have been a de novo mutation.
He also suffered seizures from a vaccine preventable disease before the vaccine was available, and he has a severe speech disability and many autistic features. So the genetic doctor would have loved to have a full genetic screen to see if there was some sequence in his DNA that was related to both conditions. But it would have been something not paid by insurance, and we were not going to pay the five figure sum.
“But back to your question, I am someone who does research on things, from an abundance of sources, and don’t just quote one person’s statements.”
Same here. This is why my son got speech therapy instead of cranialsacral therapy, and is taken to a cardiologist instead of a naturopath for his genetic heart condition.
And why I am asking for actual evidence that ethylene glycol is used in food.
By the way, have you ever seen the NOVA program “Ghost in Your Genes”? Here is a link to the transcript: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3413_genes.html
You know what else your engine cooling system contains? WATER! OMG. I hope there’s no WATER in your food or drink. Please try to step away from the idea that all CHEMICALS are bad. Everything, including you and me and water and air, is made entirely of chemicals. Oxygen and carbon and ethylene glycol and cyanide and arsenic all have good and important uses in our modern world.
But the flaw with your rant is that you fail to take into account that vaccine failure exists and that protection that does take fades as well. How many adults do you know who are completely up to date on their boosters? Are you out there making sure all adults are vaccinated too? Their coverage rates are pretty poor. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6305a4.htm
Wow you sound like a very caring nurse. Wishing death upon certain peole whos beliefs are differnt than your own
Well said, Kerrie!! It should be mandatory for people who choose not to vaccinate their children to live separately from the majority of the vaccinared population so they’re not at risk for exposing and infecting others to preventive diseases otherwise irradicted by vaccinations.
100% of all drugs and vaccines have negative side effects. If you want to trust the corporation selling you the product, that their product is safe, then be my guest.
The worst part of these pro-vac arguments is: If you’re all safe and immune as a result of your vaccine, then why the heck do you care if I’m not?? Let me live a natural life, promoting a strong immune system by paying attention to my whole body health (dealing with stress with a positive outlook, eating whatever makes my body feel great and spending time doing fun activities I enjoy) you can pay money for a magical solution to cure your problems and subdue your fears. If me and the other skeptics wish to take our chances, please give us the freedom to die of our choosing.
You can vaccinate yourself and your children and you’ll be just fine, regardless of what the rest of us do. If your vaccines make you perfectly immune, then there is no reason to care / guilt / or pressure the rest of the population to buy in to your philosophy. These fear tactics usually want people to suspend their better judgement the same way the used car sales person NEEDS you to make a decision now because there will never be a better time to buy.
I’m not buying it.
(Also, have you read the history of vaccinations? The original vaccine was cow smallpox pus injected into humans to prevent human smallpox. It was later proven that there was absolutely ZERO chance that the cow strain of smallpox could in anyway help to vaccinate humans against the completely different human strain, but the concept was already quite popular and widespread. They tweaked their method and keep assuming the effects were real.
How can you prove that any number of people have been saved by vaccines?! That is BS science. That is like saying, every time I wear my lucky gitch, I never get hit by baseballs, buses or asteroids therefore, my lucky gitch has prevented these events from occurring… They can suggest that vaccines have helped people, but there is no way to truly know (and they bank on this – I know people who have been extremely ill right after a shot and I doubt there was a record of it kept so that people were no longer given this vaccine).
Why was this method popular? Because there is one common fact about human nature and health: People want a ‘magic bullet’ solution and a special pill that they can take to solve their problems. Prevention is always better than cure, but people would rather wait until things become dire before they take action. A healthy immune system can stand up to just about anything, but how do you monetize that? This fear mongering is just one more reason to suspect a hidden agenda is driving this campaign…)
Because S we are protecting the immune deficient and babies who cant be vaccinated with herd immunity. But if people like you dont vaccinate that effect breaks down and they are no longer protected. Why cant you get it. Dont you think kids such as those fighting cancer have enough to deal with without the risk of a vpd taking them out.
The reason we have seen a come back in vpd is because of these unfounded beliefs of the danger in vaccines. Are yo really so uneducated to think you are only harming yourselfs with that choice. Wakeup your responsible for the deaths and the disabilities caused by a preventable disease. I dont want your kids to get a vpd I want them vaccinated so they are safe and are protecting the weak at the same time.
finally some truth! Thanks for posting. we must expose the lies and speak the truths. so many being decieved into trusting the fear mongering blind leading the blind pros.
I am truly shocked by this. If the smallpox vaccine didn’t work do you want to explain to me how smallpox was eradicated from the world? And how there hasn’t been a case in over 30 years.
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/04/02/smallpox-declared-eradicated-while-still-alive-and-well-by-viera-scheibner-phd/
I say go ahead don’t vaccinate yourself and your child, but keep in mind when you or them get sick stay out of my emergency room, use your holistic approach at home, and then call the coroner when you’ve given up.
Maybe when small pox comes back and eradicates you people, like the 500 million plus it did throughout the 19 and 20 century we will once and for all be done with this stupid argument. At least the our ancestors didn’t have the means to prevent this and other terrible illnesses.
Hospitals are the worst place for anyone to be as they are filled with infectious diseases!
As for our ancestors, that’s just the point: they didn’t have vaccines for a lot of things and yet, here we are! Hygiene played a BIG part (and still does) in eradicating diseases. After all, you just have look at the adverts asking for clean water etc, to know how important hygiene is for keeping diseases at bay. When disasters strike, so do diseases and the vaccinated are as affected as the unvaccinated (probably more due to a compromised immune system).
Vaccines are NOT safe for everyone, even Dr Paul offit mentioned on a recent article they are not free of side effects or even fatalities. As a lot of side effects ARE NOT reported ( I have experienced this myself) or onvestigated as beeing vaccine related and deaths are put as different causes, maybe it isnt as rare as he may think??? I know a side effect I experienced was told it couldnt be possible connected and wouldnt be investigated so never recorded when in reality why wasnt it checked and tested and considered instead of totally disregarded? “He fully acknowledges that vaccines given to tens of millions of people do indeed cause side effects, and even fatalities, but that these events are extremely rare” http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkroll/2014/03/29/dr-paul-offit-journalism-jail-for-false-equivalence-medical-reporting/
Going to the restroom is not with out risk, picking up the news paper is not with out risk everything you do is not with out risk and many things you do and put your kids though puts them at more risk then vaccines.
Everything in medicine has side effects and potential complications. Fortunately, those that are vaccine-related are usually mild and fleeting; but yes, there is a miniscule possibility – let’s say .00001%, being very generous – that you could die from a vaccination if you were to have some unusual and severe reaction. But without that vaccine, depending on your location, you and your presumably unvaccinated family might have as high as a 50% mortality rate. It’s just math: 50 vs .0001, you choose.
Unfortunately when you choose not to though, you are selfishly (and for real, as opposed to autism concerns) endangering the elderly, infants and immunocompromised people – who rely on herd immunity – in the event that you transmit a viable live virus to any of them during a preventable infection; one that you have a much better chance of surviving than they do. This is why, as someone mentioned earlier, there are certain live viruses used for inoculations where the recipient must not come into contact with any susceptible populations, including those mentioned above, for a period of time. This is because while normal individuals can likely handle contact with a live attenuated (weakened) vaccine antigen, they can be extremely dangerous for immunocompromised patients.
And besides, an ultra rare case of death following immunization still has nothing to do with autism!
Kerrie, I could go into a long winded reply, but I don’t waste my time on boxed in brains. You are the ones who should be put on an island somewhere, so you do NOT spread the diseases to the unvaccinated. They throw people in jail for selling drugs and yet the Big Pharma is nothing more than a glorified drug pusher and they don’t care who they maim or kill and they cover their butts all the way around. And seriously, if you can’t figure out how stupid the statement is, about how OUR unvaccinated children put YOUR vaccinated ones at risk, there’s not much hope for you then, but it’s certainly not saying anything good about the vaccines now is it? Truth is, YOUR kids put our unvaccinated ones at risk. Now, try to really think about that and you will have the answer. lol Drugs have only been around 100 years, they are of man/satan, not of God. I beat cancer without the Medical Field and measles, mumps, chickenpox and the like, do NOT kill people unless they have an underlying something or other going on and even then, the vaccine will probably end up killing them, quickly at times, but sometimes very slowly, like with chronic disease. Now, do your research, as I have researched both sides, and I know who is good and who the evil ones are. I am proud to say, I’ve not had one vaccine since I was a tiny tot and had no voice to say NO! I am pushing 60, have a cleaning business and go like a 20 year old. : – )
Sorry maybe I put too much information in my post for you. I am worried about the children who can not be vaccinated due to immune deficiency and babies no longer under mums protection or their own and too young to be vaccinated yeah there is a window there. Just as long as your okay hey!
Im not worried for my vaccinated ones they will fight it with antibodies before it can do damage. Herd immunity protects the weak. But I see you are happy to wish death on those kids that cant protect themselves. Big clap congratulations. You could be potentially one of the adults picking up whooping cough and passing it to defenceless babies. Well done.
Very well stated. The original MMR study that seems to be the beginning of all the worry about vaccinations has been debunked. The author of the initial anti MMR vaccination paper in 1998 had “In 2006, Deer reported in The Sunday Times that Wakefield had been paid £435,643, plus expenses, by British trial lawyers attempting to prove that the vaccine was dangerous” (Wikipedia) as well Wakefield had a patent pending on his own MMR replacement so the findings that started all the problems were for financial gain. The results were death and serious medical problems from parents not vaccinating their children. Wakefield had his licence to practise medicine revoked in the UK because of the fraud.
I understand your complete desperation when it comes to this…it sounds harsh we have to stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!
The way you word this is rather rude. The unvaccinated child is not the one that is necessarily infecting those who aren’t 100% immune. I have friends who have gotten sick from their vaccination… sick from the very thing they are vaccinating against. Why? Their child cannot recieve the vaccinations, so they all ‘need’ to get them. Yet they now have the flu, and she recieves it right along with them. I have never had the flu vaccine, and yet any flu I’ve ever had hasn’t lasted longer than 24 hours. Theirs lasts over a week. And honestly, I’ve come into contact with the flu many more times than I’ve had it myself.
Saying ‘let’s give that baby whooping cough and watch it fight for breath until its little body cant fight anymore’ is just plain wrong. You don’t want fearmongering? What are you doing here!!! You have an opinion. Fine. Don’t go around saying ‘it’s their fault, they didn’t vaccinate! That child got sick! They are to blame’. You want to talk cherry picking, what exactly are you doing here? Did you see the pathogen? Do you know where it came from exactly? Go ahead and pin it on someone just because it is convenient. Take the easy way out. Sure. Nice one. I’m sure that parent appreciates your fearmongering.
A disease may be preventable, but so are the symptoms of meds themselves. Give me a vaccine with a list a mile long of possible side effects, and I’m going to be doing some research into whether I think it is best to give my child the vaccine or not. That is my right. You’re blatent name calling is rude at best. “I wish we could put all you non vaccinators on an island and you can all have your natural diseases. The best bit is you will eventually all be killed by the harmless diseases and remove such stupidity from the gene pool.” Your quote. Right there. Have you seen the decrease in diseases prior to the administrations of the vaccinations that say they prevent them? Have you noticed that the diseases decreased due to clean water and environment, healthy food, etc prior to vaccinations being administered? I’ve seen many graphs, and the introduction of the vaccines didn’t change the way the graphs were already moving. Also, I’ve seen correlations of pesticides to some diseases as well… I believe that there are many people with many thoughts and perceptions about vaccinations, and calling them stupid is… well… arrogant. Who says you are right and they are wrong? I’ve seen science and lack of science on both sides of the debate. What is stupid is blindly following the masses and believing in ‘herd immunity’ as such. I live on a dairy. The only ‘herd immunity’ is making sure the virus is never introduced in the first place. Once there, it is there to stay. You could do everything to kill that disease through the entire herd, do it all the time, the disease will still be there. The animals more susceptible to it will recieve it. The others could have it, but be showing no symptoms. Now if you’re research leads you to believe that vaccination is good for you and your family, fine. But don’t rudely call those who disagree with you, stupid. The only stupidity is the ability to get information, and choose not to bother. How people process information is going to differ from one individual to another based on their own individual experiences.
you say ‘Harsh! Yeah but not as harsh as sentencing another child to death or disability for your personal choice. It isnt personal when it can impact others so much.’ What you are doing is harsh, yes. It is just as harsh as what you claim another individual is doing. You are pushing your view, practically bullying those with a differing opinion, telling them that their view is inferior, that it is impacting others ‘so much’ when you do not know that for a fact. Fact… There are diseases. Fact, people contract the disease from others carrying the disease. Fact, people can carry the disease without exhibiting signs of the disease due to their immune system function. The vaccine give us increased immunity, not the ability to not ever come into contact with the disease. Someone not getting the vaccine does not mean that THEY are the cause of the disease spread to an infant/young child like you mentioned. Fact, vaccines contain live/weakened diseases. Which are injected into your bloodstream. Which are supposed to improve your immunity. And you know what, they could very well do so. But they will not eradicate the disease. They CONTAIN the disease. Unless there is a way to effectively KILL the disease rather than promote a stronger immune response, we will not completely get rid of it. Perhaps the symptoms will lessen. That is fantastic. But stop this garbage about it being the fault of someone for not vaccinating their child causing another child to get a disease.
by the way, I am not against vaccines. I have had vaccinations. My children are vaccinated. I am SICK AND TIRED of the fear mongering by people on BOTH sides of this RIDICULOUS debate! There are pros and cons to everything. Saying to anyone that they HAVE to do something because ‘if you don’t you could very well kill/infect/disable’ another, especially with no actual evidence of such, is WRONG. They have rights, JUST LIKE YOU DO! It is upsetting that young babies get the disease, but it HAPPENS! And it is NOBODY’s FAULT! It is a disease.
The last 10 kids I have seen have been from contact with unvaccinated family members or siblings fellow student. Yes and the origin of the disease came from that unvaccinated person. As you know all such diseases need to be traced and all exposed followed up. So yes I know where it came from. Why is it now that we are seeing an increase it is because vaccination rates are dropping.
No I will place the blame where it belongs. I do research its part of my job. If everyone is vaccinated the body can fight the disease because it has seen it before it has the antibody pattern ready to replicate quickly and kill it before they spread it further thus stopping the spread. That one doesnt get to replicate and move from person to person. Most symptoms you see a person have from a vaccine is the symptoms produced by your own body because it thinks it is sick.
It is the lack of understanding out there that these diseases CAN AND DO KILL. Im not scare mongering I am stating what I see and it should scare you. Its not a fairy tale it is reality going on in every hospital. If we can prevent it why would you take the chance.
Every person not vaccinated is a hole in the defence.
The diff between my scaring and their scaring is mine is real I have touched the children the disease has taken, I have consoled the parents and always it leads back to that unvaccinated person. So I dont feel bad for making others feel bad. Your scared a vaccine might hurt your baby dont layer the vaccines have them one at a time dont not vaccinate at all. I nearly died from the flu vax I am allergic to an ingredient. But I still keep up with my boosters because I know it is rare to have a reaction. But I had it it was treated and I lived thats why you have these things ina doctors office, hospital or nurses station. But they are safe for the majority. Are eggs the devil no they are fine for most but can kill some. Do you have your first egg in the doctors office then do you never ever eat an egg just incase. I want to see these diseases are rarity again instead of seeing a comeback and the devastation they can bring. Even the healthiest person can be killed by a vpd thats the reality.
thankyou, this actually made sense to me, something hard to find these days
sorry, this was aimed at Sabrina
Ms. Cabrera. Please let me see this article by the CDC. I’d love to read it….Because I can tell you as an immunologist you are in fact wrong. There is no such article. That’s not how the immune system works. The viruses used in vaccines are deactivated and contain no DNA/RNA. So it’s impossible for you to get sick from the virus. I ask you please study how a virus works in making a person sick and how immunizations work before you spew your nonsense.
Melissa. Some vaccines are weakened viruses that indeed have the RNA/DNA. MMR, VZ, INH Flu for instance. It is not impossible to get sick from a live virus vaccine. And people that are compromised or currently sick should not get these vaccines.
All I have to say is that I have a brother who was left deaf by a disease we had no vaccine for when were kids. My brother got meningitis at 9 months old, almost died, and was left profoundly deaf in one ear and partially deaf in the other. If my parents could have gotten him vaccinated, they would have. While I was at UC Berkeley between 12 to 15 years ago, they still had outbreaks of meningitis in the dorms on a yearly basis, not to mention the measles outbreaks that were the reason we had to prove we’d had the vaccine. People do get sick from those who aren’t vaccinated.
same thing happened to my friend’s son, the very reason I chose to vaccinate my kids.
Vaccinated people don’t carry the “disease”, they carry the anti-bodies that fight the virus. That’s the whole idea behind the vaccine.
I think you need to do more research. Start with pertussis, it’s been pretty well established that the vaccinated can be silent carriers and infect others.
You can’t get full immunity from pertussis… but you won’t get sick. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get vaccinated. You don’t become a carrier from the vaccine itself. You just get infected again, but your body is now better at fighting it.
It is also well established that Un vaccinated people can get the virus and show no signs of the illness. Being a carrier is not unique to vaccinated people.
All the more reason th be vaccinated so that the chances of actually suffering from a disease is greatly reduced.
So Ms. Cabrera,
Are you trying to say that unvaccinated people don’t carry it or pass it on to anyone? Common sense is going to tell me that vaccinated or unvaccinated people can be carrier’s of any and all illnesses. The point is that being vaccinated is just a preventative measures and does not cause autism. I work in the environmental field, I am not a scscientist, chemist or anything like that. I do understand that all medicine is based on Alternative medicine just refined, enhanced and tested. Vaccination works with the body to HELP prevent a disease from infecting the body. Vaccinations DO NOT guarantee that you will not get sick but I am confident, after all of the research and development that it helps in controlling and possibly eliminating diseases like Polio and many others.
They don’t ALL carry the disease, as your statement implies, but they CAN if they come into contact with someone who passes it on to them, and, for most diseases (it’s been a while since I’ve had to study measles), there’s just a time frame in which they can pass it. While it’s possible for a vaccinated person to pass a disease to someone who is not vaccinated, the first person must have first picked up the disease from someone who had it, so if everyone (or mostly everyone) is vaccinated, everyone’s covered. Therefore, if your child can be vaccinated they should, just as stated in the article.
that’s the point; not everyone can be vaccinated. the immnunocompromised, and esp children under 12 months of age. A mother with natural immunity to measles will protect her baby for up to 6 months after birth and longer if she breastfeeds, during a time when a baby’s immune system is too immature to cope with a measles infection A mother with vaccine-induced immunity will not protect her baby for as long, and of course much less if bottle feeding.
And vaccine induced measles immunity is not guaranteed for life, so a certain percentage of adults will be non-immune too.
Vaccinated people don’t “carry” the disease. They possess a specific antibody that was perfectly designed, by their own body, to detect a measles virus.
Not possible, it isn’t a live vaccine. Flu hasn’t been very good guess lately but it also isn’t a live virus injection.
Do you even understand how vaccines work?
Ms. Cabrera, unfortunately there should be a warning that anti-vaxxers should not comment not this blog because these readers are FULL of hate and will attack anything that opposes their view in a very unprofessional manner. But yes, your comment is 100% accurate.
Megan, why are you commenting under multiple names?
Here is my rebuttal to your article. I hope you truly take the time to read it.
http://www.livingwhole.org/dear-parents-are-you-being-lied-to/
Great article Megan. I hope others take time to read it. I think what’s really powerful is to read stories by parents. I use to be pro-vaccine- very pro-vaccine. I started reading articles of vaccine injured children and started to question it, so I began doing lots of research, from BOTH sides of the argument. I am now not anti-vaccine, but I am anti-CDC’s recommended schedule of the vaccine. I believe too many are given in WAY too short of a time span.
Here are some stories of vaccine injured children:
http://crystalchild.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/vaccine-injury-blog-list/
Yep, fearful tales told by parents can be really powerful motivators that influence opinions via emotions, instead of facts.
But isnt that what you all are doing running around saying how all the unvaccinated will infect everyone and kill your immunodeficient ?
Fearful tales told by people can be powerful motivators…. Hmmmm
Note: I have removed the abusive reply in this thread, and I thank the person who called it to my attention (although his or her comment also seems to have been deleted along with it for some reason–my apologies).
You’ve got to be kidding me Megan. Did you even read the studies and pages you linked? Every scientific study and fact page from the CDC you posted supports the original post. What the everloving fuck is wrong with you that you would support an anti-vaccine movement. All of the science, including what you’ve posted points to this. Where is there any, ANY science showing that. Please, I’d love to know. You and your kind ought to be rounded up and kept on a compound somewhere away from the rest of us. Unbelievable, but not surprising there are idiots walking around believing this bologna.
Jennifer Raff, Author of this article didn’t read many of the pages she linked either.
Vaccines studies haven’t even included a saline placebo control. How can you cry out in the name of science when the standard for evidence based medicine isn’t being followed?
I read her article. Did you actually read the studies she posted? (The abstract and conclusions of those studies don’t necessarily match the results so reading the info. is pertinent). Just a thought…
Megan, why are you commenting under multiple names here, and deleting comments in response to your piece? Your actions are illustrating perfectly the sort of deception I’m talking about.
I took the time to read it. I found it generally uninformed and worse, apparently intentionally misleading in several places. You indicate that you are an attorney; I hope you would not misrepresent the record in court as you do on your blog.
First and most obvious to me, It is not true that the vaccine court “has rule[d] that evidence of a causal relationship between autism and MMR does exist.” If you disagree, please by all means give us a citation. I think this is an outright fabrication.
You also respond to the lack of any causative connection between thimerosol and autism by asking, “[a]re you sure there’s no co-relation?” This is a logical fallacy; correlation does not imply causation. In any event, there are better correlations.
Similarly, you ask whether the “0.1 – 0.5 mg/L [of aluminum] present in each dose of a vaccine” is concerning. Anti-vaxers do not like the research on this question, and seem (like you) to be generally unfamiliar with it, but this is an empirical question with an established answer. The sum total of aluminum a child gets in a year’s vaccine is about four days’ worth of the accepted safe exposure, even assuming intravenous injection and a 2.2-pound baby. The research establishes that aluminum exposure stays within known safe limits and it has not been demonstrated to cause actual harm.
You also say, “so many people have reported the development of autism post-vaccine that the Autism Omnibus Proceeding was established to handle these cases.” But you are misleading your readers with a tactical omission: Cedillo v. Sec. HHS has been decided already and the appeals are complete. The court rejected petitioners’ claims regarding a link between autism and vaccines. Eliding that information doesn’t seem to have any purpose other than to mislead your readers.
Further, you claim without support that it is nonsensical to argue that unvaccinated children put vaccinated children at risk. It does not appear that you even understand this concern, much less can refute it; vaccinations are typically not 100% effective, meaning that even vaccinated children can be at risk when unvaccinated children become carriers. We all benefit from herd immunity.
You seem desperately unhappy with the scientific consensus regarding vaccines. It appears that the very concept of vaccinations runs counter to your preferred lifestyle, which (according to your “about” page) rejects medications generally, including vaccines. Is it possible that your hostility to vaccines predated, rather than resulted from, your study of the evidence?
@Colin. As a Microbiologist and future doctor, thank you for being the voice of reason within this parade of idiocy. Measles, mumps, rubella, and whooping cough have reached some of the highest levels not seen since the 1980s, when immunologists realized that a booster was required every ten years to keep the immune system responsive to infection. Diseases we once thought would never reach these levels again.
As for @Ms. Cabrera. Do some research. Compare the levels of infant deaths to all of the diseases I have listed above to the chance of autism for your child. Even vaccinations did cause autism, the is a higher likely-hood of your child contracting one of these diseases then obtaining autism.
Also, you might want to look into this recent research pointing to autism occurring in-utero, rather than after birth.
I second this comment. It is truly sad there are parents who are trying to blame vaccines for autism.
As a Mom of a child with Autism, I can’t tell you how much rage I am filled with every time someone tries to tell me that I caused by son’s Autism by having him vaccinated… By the way they talk you’d think I personally made the decision to sentence him to death.
Megan, I took the time to read your rebuttal. It’s ill-informed at best, criminally negligent advice at worst.
You are as bad for society or worse than a common murderer, ignorance is daring. You are right the medical community made vaccines up just to mess with us.
http://hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-news/health/measles-and-flu-deaths-rising-considerably-california-40898
Please don’t insult murderers. They at least know they kill people.
With all due respect Megan, I have to disagree. I am pro vaccine. The reason – in the late Seventies there was thought to be a link between the whooping cough vaccine and epilepsy. As a result, I was not vaccinated and got whooping cough very, very badly. Thankfully it was the summer holidays, as it could have killed a friend. She had cystic fibrosis. Healthy people tend to forget just how devastating illnesses can be for those who are immune-suppressed. Flu could kill my father in law (diabetic). A friend’s daughter, while receiving chemo, had no immunity to anything
Please, please think everyone. Go back to the findings of Edward Jenner and smallpox vs cowpox. And, if you decide not to vaccinate, don’t assume that those of us who do don’t care.
OH My Goodness this is the biggest load of unscientific drivel I have come across. It distorts the facts and uses a pseudo scientific style to sound authoritative. In the western world there had been a decline in some infectious diseases due to “clean, water, clean air and clean food” however this did not apply to many places in the world to suggest that this is evidence vaccination is not required is a spurious argument indeed. I remember kids with paralysis as a result of polio, I experienced measles,chickenpox ,mumps and rubella and I was extremely ill. I was not better off for having the illness and there is no reason for the vast majority of children today to suffer those infections. When herd immunity drops to such a low level that all those unvaccinated or “naturally” vaccinated kids start getting these common infectious diseases I wonder if the anti-vaccination lobby will be quite so smug. I would like to remind you that flu wiped out a huge proportion of the world’s population in 1916 and measles etc. were responsible for decimating the native populations of many nations , they died Megan. Yes measles kills ! And it can leave kids with serious brain injuries. I have nursed some of those kids, normal healthy kids who contracted this common infection and were left incapable of speech, both physically and intellectually handicapped. We are fortunate to live at a time when we have the capability of preventing such misery but people like you are willing to put kids at risk based on a bunch of ideological nonsense with no scientific basis in fact.
.
Wow, has humanity sunken so low as to “look forward” to children dying. This comment should be flagged and removed!
I removed it–thanks for the heads up.
Keep up the good work, Dr. Ratt. I made the effort of reading most of the comments around here and I sincerely don’t get it. I’m in Med School and an RN of 15+ years and I haven’t seen one (as in “1”) vaccine injury but have already seen catastrophic casesof Influenza. As in “Young, healthy people dead”.
For you idiots around here: yes,I am current concerning Influenza, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Polio, Pertussis, Hep A & B and MMR. Regards, Oliver 🙂
“Raff”, that is. Sorry O.o
No prob 🙂
calling people idiots will surely get your point across.
Their idiocy is not my fault. I am sorry for them and their kids, though.
You are expressing an opinion without presenting foundation research. It would appear you are the “idiot” here, because you have been given the opportunity of a forum to share your knowledge, yet sadly, you have chosen to use it to hurl insults on people with OPINIONS, who seek KNOWLEDGE! OPINIONS ARE NOT FACTS! Stop wasting time and help those of us who are here to learn, digest the information, research further, and then make an informed decision.
Agreed!
I’d like to help. Please get in touch.
Sorry Jennifer, please will you specify who the message it to? Thanks.
Love it!
You can if logic fails over and over again….
Would you know a vaccine injury if you saw it Dude from Germany? lol Vaccine injury comes in many forms, including death…it can come in the form of chronic sickness and or disease, there are many faces to vaccine injury. : – )
So you seem to be saying that there is no way to tell if a vaccine actually caused many of these, rather there might just be a correlation with our improving ability to diagnose both psychological and physiological diseases and the increase in accessibility of vaccines.
And I am not current. Never had any of these. Feel great.
Even before vaccines most people never contracted these diseases. With proper vaccination programs virtually no one will contract these diseases.
One of the biggest reasons you haven’t been affected (by you or someone you being infected) is herd.immunity. The doctor mentioned this and even provided a link so you could learn more about it. The.simple explanation is; if a certain percentage of the people around you are immune, there will little to no chance that.those not immune will encounter the.disease in the first place.
You might think that this is because of Herd Immunity, but then I’d simply ask as to why my neighbors or co-workers continue to become ill.
Your not clear as to which illnesses people around you are succumbing to. If you’re talking about vaccine preventable I seriously doubt your claim. For many of these diseases, there less than a thousand cases per year. The measles out is still under two hundred. If any significant persentage of these cases where in you general area the public would be aware of it.
But, even if your claims are true, most people will not contract the these diseases. Even the worst of the, like the black death with death tolls reaching 30% to 40%, wasn’t 100% contagious.
Whooping Cough for starters. Two (of four) vaccinated brothers down the street had it this past year. Why didn’t they benefit from the same herd immunity I (or their brothers) were benefiting from. Flu would be the next one, but I understand the symptoms are similar to other diagnoses; I just have to my acquaintances’ word for it. I haven’t had Flu symptoms in forever.
Pertussis has a couple of quirks. One is the fact that you can have it and not know it. Especially among healthy adults. The point being that there can be two people, neither have had the vaccine, but is already immune and just doesn’t know it.
As I’ve mentioned, these diseases are not 100% contagious. Of the people who are exposed some just won’t catch it. As a small child I caught the measles. No one else in my household did, not even my younger sister who shared.a bedroom with me. It was the same way a few years later when my sister came down with the mumps. No one else in the house got it. This might explain why only two out of three brothers got it.
Pertussis is spread when the infectious person sneezes or coughs and the other person is close enough to breathe in the bacteria. So, if the timing is off the bug won’t be passed.
Thanks for the reply but it left me with more questions than answers. Are you saying that it is likely that both myself and their two brothers had pertussis but didn’t exhibit symptoms? In which ‘herd immunity’ wasn’t nearly 100% effective. Were you vaccinated against the measles as a small child? In which case ‘herd immunity’ still wasn’t 100% effective. Near the beginning you mentioned that its possible for an unvaccinated person to have naturally obtained immunity – I couldn’t agree more. You also stated that such diseases aren’t even 100% contagious – again, I couldn’t agree more. I would then conclude that if A) people can have natural immunity and B) herd immunity isn’t super effective and C) these diseases aren’t 100% contagious; then why bother with vaccinations (except in dire conditions) in the first place?
You logic only makes sense if you make aggressive and unwarranted assumptions regarding the utility of natural immunity, the effectiveness of herd immunity, and the contagious spread of the diseases. It’s unlikely that you’ve done the research to have solid figures for these inputs. The people who do have and study that information all seem to recommend vaccination. Why do you think that is? It’s not a trick or rhetorical question–I’m curious about your perspective on their perspective.
Colin, one does not require advanced scientific studies and research to make common sense determinations. Are not observation, experience & anecdote crucial to the beginnings of the scientific process? Why am I then not allowed to lean upon my own understandings to make educated decisions? Why must I rely on strangers with ‘degrees’ to tell me the odds of risk vs. benefit? I might have once had a traumatic experience flying on an airplane, and vowed never to fly again – despite ‘data’ telling me that the odds were in my favor. Science is infinite – no single person can understand it all. The good news is such understanding is not crucial to live. We have things like intuition, emotion and memory to help guide us through life. Sure, we can make wrong decisions, but so do doctors & scientists alike. As matter of fact if we utilize the scientific process on such thinking we could easily conclude that when it comes to our own well-being we need only to trust ourselves. Using said process we would conclude that trusting others with our own lives, safety, health, etc would be concluded as illogical.
The problem is that common sense frequently isn’t. The very fact that you are reading this on a computer is ample evidence of this. The dual particle/waveform nature of light is counter to everything you observe in life-but your eyes rely on this duality to see, and your computer would not function if we did understand this duality. BTW-explaining this is what got Einstein his Nobel.
Is common sense more common from one person to the next? In whose opinion? You attempt to impress with your knowledge and use of precocious terminology – does that indeed make you smarter? Does the fact that a computer exists nullify any risk associated with technology (or vaccines)?
I stand by the previous comment. Talk to an instrument rated pilot. The hard thing to do flying on instruments is to ignore what your senses tell you and trust your instruments. You may think you are climbing to the sky when in fact you are plummeting to the ground, if you can’t accurately see the horizon. The physiology is understood, but its hard overcome “gut feelings” That’s what an education is for.
And when those instruments fail, as scientists often do, what does that a person with?
The instruments fail far less often than the senses. The senses tell us the universe revolves about us. The instruments tell us that we are on a small planet orbiting an average star (about a 1/3 of its way through its life), not unlike millions of other stars in that galaxy, in the outer arm of a fairly average spiral galaxy, not unlike thousands of other galaxies.
Our senses tell us that heavier things should fall faster (neglecting air resistance-which we can compensate for). Our instruments tell us that all things fall at the same rate (demonstrated by a guy named Galileo Galile)
Instruments do fail but they fail far less than our senses do.
Perhaps you should create an instrument that can tell me when a discussion becomes pointless.
armothe, if what you’re leaning on is your own uninformed understandings, then it’s not an informed decision. That’s virtually a tautology. An informed decision requires actual knowledge of the underlying facts, and if you don’t have them experts are a logical place to look.
You don’t need to “rely on strangers with ‘degrees’ to tell me the odds of risk vs. benefit.” But I suspect–and tell me if I’m wrong!–that you don’t actually know the odds. I don’t see anything in your comments that suggests that you accurately understand the likelihood of harm from a vaccine, or the likelihood of harm to yourself or others from a vaccine-preventable disease. I don’t mean knowing whether it’s possible; I mean knowing how likely it is, and what the actual magnitude of the possible harms are. Without that information, you aren’t making an informed choice.
It’s like betting everything on one poker hand because you know a straight is possible. You aren’t betting intelligently unless you know how likely you are to get it, how likely it is to beat the other players’ hands, how much money you’re betting and how much is in the pot.
The value of expertise is that they do have that understanding. As laypeople, you and I can and do make our own decisions about whether to trust the experts. The fact that virtually all the experts (and seriously, is there a single anti-vax infectious disease specialist?) concur that vaccines are safe and effective weighs heavily in favor of their perspective.
The problem with relying on intuition is that intuition is often, often wrong, and it doesn’t have the corrective mechanisms of science. Doctors and scientists can and do make bad decisions, but those decisions are then scrutinized by their peers. It’s how we discover counterintuitive truths, like the antimicrobial applications of moldy bread.
Your last couple of sentences are utterly illogical. I don’t see any reason why we would, or could, conclude utilizing the scientific process that it’s illogical to trust others with our safety, lives, health, etc. It’s logical to look to experts for guidance on subjects that we don’t understand, from surgery to plumbing to taxes to litigation. Vaccines are no exception.
It sounds like you’re edging towards some theory of or refutation of rational ignorance. Are you familiar with the idea?
Hi Colin. I need not read past your first sentence to understand how you yourself do not understand the concept of knowledge. By your logic nobody makes an informed decision. Rather my intuition tells me a discussion with you is pointless, mostly because you are unable to grasp the basic principles of metaphysics. Therefore I will consider your decision to reply ‘uninformed’ an example of what rational ignorance may look like. No Wikipedia necessary.
It sounds like you’re using the language of philosophy as an escape hatch, since the point is ineluctable: if you don’t have the information, then your decision is by definition uninformed. There is nothing about that premise that means that people can’t or don’t make informed decisions; they do it by getting the information. They do it by educating themselves and/or looking to others who have that information already.
If what you mean is that intuition is an equal or better kind of “knowing” than understanding the actual facts, then we can test that! What’s the cure rate of intuition-based medicine over science-based medicine? How strong are intuition-based bridges? How high do intuition-based rockets fly? How well do intuition-based investments perform?
if you don’t know the actual facts regarding the magnitude and probability of harm resulting from a decision, then you can’t make an informed decision. Intuition is not an adequate substitute; it doesn’t matter how passionately I feel like my poker hand is a winner, if I bet everything on a bad hand I’m still probably going to lose.
Great article, Jennifer. I love that you have encouraged people to read scientific papers and have provided helpful information for everyday people to be able to synthesize journal articles and rigorous scientific research. It’s great that you have pointed out that people should educate themselves widely, even in regards to your own post. Brilliantly written and so important. Hats off.
I think its still there, I can see it.
Unfortunately, such comments are the product of ignorant…um…(trying not to use the word I want to use)…jerks/bullies/rear-end-cavities/etc…abusing/hiding behind Internet anonymity (in no way a negatory comment to your anonymity, just the people who abuse it). 90% of the people who say such things on the internet wouldn’t dare say it to someone’s face.
I have read it. You are obviously too young to remember when these diseases positively ravaged children (plus some adults) and their communities. I’m not: I remember them very well. And I am happy to say that my daughters and all my grandchildren have been vaccinated! If you are so paranoid that you believe that vaccinations are some big, made up conspiracy, you should have lived back when the paranoia was REAL. Parents who became paranoid about their kids every summer…the time of year when polio was most likely to strike.
Take your self righteous, paranoid, uneducated bullshit somewhere else…like Venus or Mars. We don’t need it here.
I remember being a Polio Pioneer at school in grade 2. It was a terrible shame that that one lab made a bad batch of the vaccine. On the other hand, Polio in North America is a thing of the past, and let’s hope vaccination keeps it that way.
Amazing how Megan is actually moderating the comments on her blog so that ones (such as mine) haven’t even shown up on her site yet those who support her (and commented after me) have!
That’s something that Jennifer hasn’t done here. It says a lot about which of them is more confident in their science.
She just can’t handle the heat of someone with a different opinion than her, which is also why she hasn’t responded to anyone on this site but takes time to say thanks on her own that she’s selectively choosing to share. She’s one who is only listening to and repeating what she wants to hear and nothing different. So really, she HAS NOT done any research to the contrary.
That’s a harsh position, but I can’t say it’s inaccurate. She is also withholding a version of my comment above, listing numerous objectively false statements in her post. Nor has she attempted to correct her mistakes.
And yet this is your comment.
… and this is yours…?
Complications from Measles you ignorant slob:
•Ear infection. One of the most common complications of measles is a bacterial ear infection.
•Bronchitis, laryngitis or croup. Measles may lead to inflammation of your voice box (larynx) or inflammation of the inner walls that line the main air passageways of your lungs (bronchial tubes).
•Pneumonia. Pneumonia is a common complication of measles. People with compromised immune systems can develop an especially dangerous variety of pneumonia that is sometimes fatal.
•Encephalitis. About 1 in 1,000 people with measles develops encephalitis, an inflammation of the brain that may cause vomiting, convulsions and, rarely, coma or even death. Encephalitis can closely follow measles, or it can occur months later.
•Pregnancy problems. Pregnant women need to take special care to avoid measles, because the disease can cause pregnancy loss, preterm labor or low birth weight.
•Low platelet count (thrombocytopenia). Measles may lead to a decrease in platelets — the type of blood cells that are essential for blood clotting.
My cousin suffers from seizures, brain damage, and cannot walk because of contracting measles from a child who was not vaccinated. And he lives in New York, not some third world country. You disgust me for the simple fact that you have no idea what kind of hurt families go through because of measles. You think it’s no big deal? God forbid someone you love develops any of these problems because you chose not to vaccinate your children.
CRAWL BACK IN YOUR HOLE MEGAN.
Really? Is this the best you can do? You need to get out more.
You appear to have deleted my comment on your blog pointing out several specific factual mistakes in your post. Is your intent to give people the best information, or the information that is most convenient to your ideology? I’ve got no problem with you pruning commenters on your own blog, but you could at least correct those misrepresentations. Having taken a position purporting to educate people, it’s the ethical thing to do.
Colin for the win.
Obviously a mature, thoughtful and rational human being.
Definition of irony is someone who comments “your an idiot”. It’s you’re, as in you are an idiot. Idiot.
“Anonymous” also spelled “cite” incorrectly, so it appears that he/she is a poor speller, which is unfortunate in this case, since his/her opinion on vaccines is correct. I would suggest that anyone who wishes to make a point, especially when disparaging others while making the point, would do well to have that opinion proofread before posting it. Those who, for whatever reasons, stubbornly refuse to see the overwhelming evidence of the benefit of vaccination will not respond positively to rudely-worded comments filled with mechanical or grammatical errors.
Undisputed Fact and on the record- cancer virus were in vaccines
Simple google and you will find articles on SV40 and so on.
Another fact -Merk cooked the books on there vacinne results.
Lymrix was another vacinne that severly damaged its receipents –
Another Fact it was pulled from the market and makers sued
Another fact most peered reviewed science is bought and paid for by big pharm and special interest . Almost no independent study are every conducted…WHY?
We all make informed decision based on our best intentions and whilst I vaccinated my children, if given the chance again I would not.. I think it’s the biggest scam of all time along with GMO and fluoridated water but that another issue in itself.
Last point what happened to bird flu and the swine flu? We didnt vacinate our way out of that..Most disease has a life cycle and if you look at when vacinnes were introduced to the western world,most disease had already sharply decreased and in some case were eradicated( scarlet fever)
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/vaccine-fraud-exposed-merck-falsified-vaccine-efficacy-results-employees/
Grammar not great, typing on the iPad sux
Intelligence not great either.
Yes, our delivery mechanisms for vaccines weren’t initially as good as they could have been,
and
Yes, we weren’t as aware as we should have been of the all the side effects of vaccines.
BUT
Firstly, we have improved and are still improving. It’s called science!
Secondly, vaccines WORK, that’s why Merck needed to “cook the books”, because their efficacy was falling below 95%.
Finally, even if things were as bad as the conspiracy nuts make them out to be, being vaccinated would still be better than not being vaccinated.
MMR DOES NOT CAUSE AUTISM. BUT EVEN IF IT DID, THE RISK OF GETTING AUTISM IS AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE LOWER THAN DYING OF MEASLES. OR WHOOPING COUCH, OR RUBELLA.
GET IT?
Oh, I don’t know why we bother getting into these arguments, can’t change your minds anyway. Go on, let your children die, just don’t bring them near my family.
Why are you arguing with such a person? You will never convince them. I know, it probably gets you upset, and I understand. I believe those who won’t vaccinate their children are irresponsible and that behavior is criminal. Just do the best YOU can and let those who believe “Big Pharm” is behind everything worship their hero Kevin Trudeau and hope they don’t infect the rest of us.
All I can say is since your children are obviously vacinated then us coming around your kids wont make a diffenrence. And by the way Getting autism from these vacinations (and yes it does cause Autism) may be better than dying but insurance doesnt’ want to pay for treatments needed to help this kids (that later turn into adults). So then you have Autistic adults with no serivces and we parents will die eventually and then who will take care of these autisic adults that were made autistic by the vacines??? Something to think about.
collateral damage. kids with autism are collateral damage. vaccines save more lives than they harm, there’s no doubt. as a parent of an autistic child, i guess we should suck it up for the “herd”. we should have damaged children so others can live. and then if we dare speak up against it, we are irresponsible conspiracy theorists. i don’t think it’s just vaccines that cause autism, but how about, instead of beating us with a club, you could say thank you. we’re the ones who took one for the “herd”. you’re welcome.
There is no scientific proof of a CAUSAL relationship between vaccination and autism just anecdotal correlation. There is a difference.
If you don’t understand how vaccines work, then why are you even replying? They aren’t 100% effective. If a vaccine has only 98% efficacy then having unvaccinated children around increases the risk that my children are exposed to diseases.
VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. Wakefield’s results were falsified. End of Story.
Why are people like you so obstinate in believing some rubbish you read on a conspiracy website?
A little bit nasty I would have thought, however you question my intelligence but make ridiculous statement like” Merk had to cook the book” & the risk of autism is far our weighed by the greater good.
Doesn’t make sense to me- autism rate are 1 in 68 and science and data should be authentic.
You sight the disease whooping cough but don’t have a clue that nearly all cases being reported are from a different strain we don’t immunise for or against and was most likely a mutated strain from over vaccination.
Polio was a disease spread through feacal contamination- India has had wide spread campaigns of mass immunisation and the polio rate has not changed because the water and sanitation is still terrible.
Lets look at the Amish . no autism and no disease- they don’t vaccinate . Why?
Won’t you or anyone other pro vax person at least question the narrative?
I question ADHD , I question GMO, I question cancer rates ,autism , obesity ,autoimmune disease, I question why we fluoridate our water, why we add over 3000 chemical to our food supply each year …I question why little kids get leukaemia
I question the so called science and governments that approves this crap.
Wasn’t that long ago government and big buisness promoted smoking and thought the Cain toad was a brilliant idea.
Blue Peter Please don’t say anything about my children , that really is a piss weak and wimpy stance and I don’t wish any ill to anyone. We can agree to disagree and like I mentioned I vaccinated my children but would not again. My opinion now based on all i have read and watched is that vacinnes are the greatest scam ever perpetrated on mankind along with the bank heist of 2008 .
But that just my opinion and I’m glad you have yours.
Fletch,
>>
Lets look at the Amish . no autism and no disease- they don’t vaccinate . Why?
>>
This is wrong. The Amish do vaccinate (though their rates are low), they do get autism, and they do get diseases.
Diseases do not have a life cycle. They simply have a cycle of expansion and decrease if left untreated. Vaccines are what can eradicate them. Look at Polio. It’s been virtually eradicated in countries with the vaccine, but is seeing a rise in non-vaccinated countries. As for your claim that Scarlet Fever has been naturally eradicated, check again. My daughter and others have had this disease in recent history.
Here’s some good information on the SV40 issue:
http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/sv40.html
Are you actually a doctor Colin? You represent yourself that way. Just wondering if you’ve actually graduated from medical school.
No, I’ve never represented myself as a doctor. I’m not one.
http://www.today.com/health/more-20-cases-measles-california-due-unvaccinated-children-2D79455508
Here is my “source” please read this and comment.
Yup, says it right there in the article, “Vaccinated people can carry the disease and when they come into contact with unvaccinated people these people contract the illness.”
Same goes for pertussis. Vaccinated adults can serve as silent reseviors and pass the disease to infants too young or too young to be fully immunized. “The research suggests that while the vaccine may keep people from getting sick, it doesn’t prevent them from spreading whooping cough — also known as pertussis — to others.” http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cold-flu/whooping-cough-vaccine-may-not-halt-spread-illness-f2D11655363
” Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants “http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm
If vaccines are so safe and good for us as your post claims –
Why did the US National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program pay out total awards as of the August 6th 2008 the unbelievably high amount of $1,804,415,262.35. This is over 1.8 Billion dollars in damages (awards) for these claimed to be health-giving and harmless vaccines!!!
You might wonder how easy it is to get an award, well it is extremely difficult as you might imagine! Besides fighting and proving one’s claim against such powerful companies and the resources they have: A stipulation provides that in order for the vaccine recipient to qualify for an award, the first symptoms of either such injury, or the first symptoms of a “significant aggravation” of either such injury, must have been exhibited within three days of the inoculation! Aside from the above program offering limited justice, there are many Legal Firms specializing in taking cases on behalf of other victims which would add greatly to the compensation these Drug companies have had to pay out. Claiming that all Vaccinations are safe and work is definitely misleading and wrong. Maybe some are, but that is even doubtful when one reads the small print!
You are either spreading disinformation, or intentionally being dishonest by not including the above info for your readers!
As of 2013, that number was closer to $2.8 billion. That’s over about 25 years of the court’s existence. In just one year, automobile accidents cost about a hundred times as much.
In fact, in the court’s lifetime, less than four thousand people (last time I looked at the numbers) had filed a claim. That’s everyone who files, which is free since the government pays for your lawyers, not the ones who win. Fewer than a thousand people in almost every year. And in every year, well over ten million vaccines are administered.
A product that’s used hundreds of millions of times and generates just a few thousand claims (not payouts, claims) is a safe product. Much, much, much safer than cars.
Your other talking point is wrong, by the way; I think that claimants can always prove (if they have the science to support their claims) that a vaccine caused their injury. There may be a 3-day limit on using the “table injury” standard, which is a way to make things easier for claimants by not requiring them to prove causation, but if so I haven’t seen that rule. Can you cite to it please?
Vaccinating or not is such a personal decision. Though I chose to delay immunization until the teen years for my children, one of whom then chose to be selectively immunized, the other having certain precarious health factors, I think there are valid points and reasons on both sides of this equation. What disturbs me most about this thread is not the beliefs and decisions that may be in opposition to mine, nor the perilous possibilities, but the disrespect and absolutism displayed by participants. We have to live in this world with each other. And we have to be able to live with ourselves and our choices. Yet people here are mudslinging and denigrating each other rather than supporting informed decisions either way. Please be kind even when you atrongly disagree, and please refrain from insulting people for their beliefs regarding healthcare. That people research on their own and consider their particular families based on information they have sought out and pondered rather than being blind and manipulated EITHER WAY is to be celebrated. I know each of you feels sure you are in the right…..but that doesn’t entitle you to lash out and insist, and frankly, that will not win anyone over to your side anyway. In a kind and heartfelt exchange of ideas and information, mostly everybody wins.
Nina, very nice to hear your reasoned thoughts. While I strongly disagree with the anti-vaccination movement in principle I do support people being able to present their views without being abused for having done so. However; if someone chooses to present views that are not supported by the vary articles they cite, then that’s a problem and they should be able to deal with any rebuttals. I take issue with Megan’s article because she misrepresented studies to support her own argument. The CDC study she cited regarding Varicella went on to say that prior to establishing the use of the vaccine, reporting of Varicella cases and related deaths was very low (<0.1% to 20%). This would have had a bearing on the actual figures. After the vaccine was introduced there was a significant decrease in the rates of infection and related death and a massive increase in the reporting rates. (The age adjusted mortality rates decreased by 66%). These all support the conclusion that the vaccine works, and works very well. I will admit I didn't bother to carry on reading all of her links because I just don't have time to address each of her claims and I am perfectly satisfied that vaccination is a critical tool for the maintenance of community health.
Very, not vary. Should spend more time proof reading before posting!
Prick not Jeff. You should get your name right before posting.
Prick? How so. I’m happy for you to point out how my previous post was anything but objective and reasonable if you can do so.
I fully respect and admire your thoughtful comment. Thank you for having a wholistic approach to such an apparently hot button issue.
I am in favor of safer vaccines, not anti vaccine, but I’ve been attacked and have had hateful things wished upon my family, including my vax injured son.
I believe, like you do, that people are just doing their best for their family while considering the greater good and their local community. I wish nothing bad on anyone, even those who don’t offer me the same courtesy.
Thank you for your perspective!!!
Thank you for this post. Someone once told me we need to be responsible for “the listening” we create. By bringing respect into the dialogue it allows either side to possibly hear what the other has to offer. After much grappling with the decision, reviewing research, talking to both a dr. And naturopathic physician we decided to not vaccinate. In my peer group, I have several parents who have chosen this same route while others have chosen to vaccinate. What is apparent among all of us is the motivation behind our decisions stems from wanting the very best for our children. I can’t think of a peer who has made a blind uninformed decision, yet we have not all reached the same decision. I remain open to engaging in the information and appreciate some of the links posted. Mudslinging in either direction detracts from what either side is trying to accomplish
Thank you. Really, thank you. This is exactly the issue I’ve been having on here. I’m sick of the mudslinging, the name calling, the blame game on either side of things. It just is not right. Each parent is trying their very best to make informed decisions for the health of their own kids. Nobody should be blaming them for another child getting sick, or having a side effect, or any of that. Disease is disease. It is terrible. It can be terrifying. But it is not the fault of anyone else. If my kid gets sick because someone in their school was sick, I will not be blaming that child and their parent. Why? Because it is a disease. Nobody can control it. Nobody. We can do what we think is best to prevent it, or to care for those who have it, or to prevent the spread of it, but we cannot control it.
Amen, sister.
It may be safe however they TESTED the pnuemococcal vaccine for its SAFETY and EFFECTIVENESS on 37,878 CHILDREN. What of it wasn’t safe and effective…what would have happened to those children?? just curious where the interest lies in this.
You may want to hit the books and look at what happened in trials of AIDS vaccines-which were not found to be safe and effective-primarily not effective. People who are injured in clinical trials are offered standard of care for the syndrome/region. If the vaccine is not effective, they are no worse off than the unvaccinated-no harm has occurred.
BTW, you may also want to look at what any drug goes through before release. They are typically tested in rats and mice, followed by another species or two, then non-human primates. Lots of drugs “wash-out” during preclinical trials. It then goes to phase 1 trials-where a small number of people (~10-20) are given either increasing doses, or a single dose and closely monitored for side effects. Its then tried in broader population (100-500)(phase 2) at an established dose from phase 1. If those are satisfactory, with limited or manageable side-effects (will vary based on what the drug is designed to do-we’ll tolerate many more side-effects from an anti-cancer drug than a vaccine), its then tried on a large population-several thousand, to establish adverse side-effects and safety-because, you know, people do vary in their reactions to anything(phase 3 testing). If it passes all those hurdles, it will be approved and go into production/release to general public-its an approved drug. Even then the monitoring doesn’t stop, there is post-release monitoring for adverse side-effects and effectiveness-and if these become great enough, the drug is withdrawn. All this is at the expense of the drug company, and can cost several $100,000,000.
Who would sign their kid up for that study??? They’ve never “tested” the full load of 5-9 shots a two month old baby gets on actual babies. They’ve tested the individual shots on infant monkeys, and some reports show that any unfavorable results were just not included in the stats.
The study wasn’t a test, it was an evaluation. That means the vaccine previously shown to be safe prior to release on to market, has been further evaluated in real situations to evaluate effectiveness (not safety, which has already been ascertained)
Also it was nothing to do with monkeys.
Reblogged this on polyfeministix.
What kind of crazy ass sneeze kills people in the third world?
Just saying something might cause autism is irrelevant. I might be God. Reality as we know it might be a computer simulation. Cheese might cause cancer. Go ahead, it’s fun!
Smallpox. Simple. Where is it now?
Yes public health has improved, thanks to world class scientists! Vaccines are one piece of the picture! Science has enough huge challenges, such as the oncoming storm of antibiotic resistance to have to worry about pep ole unravelling problems that have already been solved!
Of course we need to keep an eye on big pharma, absolutely. If we waste our energies on this nonsense then other smaller issues will slip through the net.
Thank you for the well presented argument. It is easy for people who have never seen the damage these illnesses do to forget how serious they truly are. I am in my fifties. The measles vaccine had only just been made available shortly before I contracted the measles. I nearly died that night. In fact, I convulsed, stopped breathing and my father resuscitated me.
We had family friends who lost a child to herpes encephalitis, a complication of chicken pox.
We had another family friend whose normal healthy little girl suffered severe brain damage after contracting measles.
If people who choose not to immunize were risking only their own children’s health, I would shake my head at their cavalier attitude. However, as you rightly point out, if their children succumb to one of these diseases, they are risking the health of other children who cannot be immunized.
This author undermines her position by using the same fear mongering tactics that she claims the anti-vaccine movement is using. The problem with vaccines is layered and, just as the author quotes a FB meme about the irrefutability of science, there is as much science discounting vaccines as there is supporting them. When looking at this issue, a responsible person wholly understands both sides and makes an educated decision. The author of this article is nothing more than angry and trying to use an old American strategy to get simple minded people to accept her opinions. If you aren’t a thinker and are easily swayed, I recommend you follow up this article with others of differing viewpoints and research before you decide what is best for you. There is no research in this article; no citations or references to new studies. This problem is bigger than vaccines because it isn’t the choice to vaccinate that is the only problem. It’s the people who vaccinate and then do NOTHING else to manage the health of their children until that child needs a doctor. DON’T BE THAT GUY. Vaccinate or don’t-it doesn’t affect my family. Just make sure you are doing more for your child’s health than simply following an injection schedule. That’s the difference between people who rely on doctors and those who manage their own health naturally; naturalists use daily preventative measures, conduct daily analysis of their bodies and health, and identify likely culprits of illness so as to eradicate the problem. Perhaps that is why their children aren’t the ones getting sick. Vaccinated children and unvaccinated children using traditional Western medicine strategies are the ones becoming ill. If what I have said made you angry, determine that you really do understand all sides before you argue your position with me or anyone. Spouting off one sided rhetoric just adds to the problem and the confusion. People love someone to blame and this issue isn’t being resolved because no one is listening to anyone else. Instead, everyone is pointing the finger of blame away from themselves. First order of business: point that finger back at yourself because EVERYONE is to blame on this one. Just something to think about.
“The problem with vaccines is layered and, just as the author quotes a FB meme about the irrefutability of science, there is as much science discounting vaccines as there is supporting them.”
I don’t think that you know how much science there is on either side; this is a false statement. Why throw it out there?
In fact, the vast majority of doctors support vaccines as safe and effective. So do the vast majority of scientists, including the ones who make it their life’s work to understand these issues. Consequently the FDA, WHO, IOM, and pretty much every other major public health organization, governmental or not, supports vaccines as safe and effective.
Anti-vaxers, having been unable to generate science that supports their position, often fall back on the rhetorical tactic of just telling people that there is “just as much science” on both sides. But it’s not true.
The more I hear of this crowd, the more disillusioned I become. There is no convincing the unintelligent. These people are ignorant and cowards. They will not look in the face of convincing fact and change their opinion, they will simply stick their fingers in their ears and yell LALALA until they drown out all dissent. Let’s just hope natural selection does work.
Thanks, Colin! It’s very interesting that some people are still suggesting that there’s replicated scientific studies supporting anti-vaccination when there are not. Have you ever heard of The Panic Virus? Phenomenal book, I just finished it for class. http://sethmnookin.com/the-panic-virus/
One of the interesting points Mnookin makes is that the benefits of vaccines can be taken for granted…Since vaccines have prevented major outbreaks, people look around and say, oh, I don’t need to vaccinate my children. There are no major outbreaks! Well, it’s because people have been vaccinating their children…To break from this is dangerous for society from a public health perspective. But maybe that’s where we’re heading – a deadly outbreak of an otherwise preventable disease. Maybe then people will have a better understanding of what vaccines actually prevent – not just the harm of one person or child, but the harm of many.
Thanks. I just picked up The Panic Virus, actually–it’s next on my reading list. Glad to hear the recommendation.
Rubbish. There is NOT as much science refuting vaccines as there is supporting it. Not even close.
It’s natural for about 30-40% of children to die before they reach the age of 5. Modern medicine has reduced that number to about 0.5% in developed countries. Africa is very natural, but the 9 of the 10 highest infant mortality rates are in Africa (Afghanistan being the exception) ranging between 16% and 20%.
http://www.childinfo.org/mortality_ufmrcountrydata.php
Keep you children away from my family.
Slow down the vaccine schedule if you are scared of layering. We did that with our second two after an illness with my middle son popped up. I felt strongly that he needed and should receive vaccines. I simply spoke with his doctor about spacing them out in a way that was safe for him. As parents we have flexibility, we just need to be responsible to our children as well as the children around them.
As a parent who vaccinated my children up until the point my son became “autistic”, and yes he became, I can say that watching that occur in your own child is absolutely heartbreaking. He received his 18 month shots and in the next few weeks that followed he had rubella three times, three times! My pediatrician offered no reason as to why just to give him Tylenol and fluids and not to forget to come back for his next round of shots. That’s the last time I saw that doctor and the last time vaccines will ever be in my house hold. I have since spent the last five years trying to help my son recover. You may call me an idiot, say I need to live on an island or even wish death upon my three beautiful, bright, healthy boys. Learn to be a little more open minded and understanding. Until you have watch the light in your own child’s eyes vanish don’t be so quick to throw hatred at those of us who have. Pro or anti-vaccine we should all get along on the grounds we want our children healthy.
Vaccines don’t cause Autism. They just don’t. Just like my son, your son is Autistic because he was born that way. The brain changes as it grows and Autism manifests itself anywhere between 6 months and 2 years of age. You’re not going to vaccinate him because of reactions – fine. Don’t blame it on Autism.
sadly you really do not know that..no one does…
Yes. I do.
There is no evidence (that hasn’t been found to be fraudulent) to say that vaccines cause Autism.
Show me evidence – not a blog.
Great article. But it didn’t take long for for the other side to refute. All I had to do was look at their sources to see it’s a lot of circular arguments http://www.livingwhole.org/dear-parents-are-you-being-lied-to/
The linked-to piece is an attempt to advocate for a position, and neither constitutes nor reflects an analysis of the science on this topic. It generally restates anti-vax talking points without any critical analysis, and therefore repeats a number of obviously false and misleading canards. As an attorney, the legal misstatements were most obvious to me, but the doctors and experts commenting on that piece obviously find it deeply flawed from their perspectives as well. The author seems content to leave her misstatements up, which reflects to my mind an intent to reinforce her beliefs rather than a willingness to adapt those beliefs to the facts.
To be clear, all these inaccuracies are found in the “livingwhole.com” piece, not the one above.
First, I am not aware of any vaccine court ruling “that evidence of a causal relationship between autism and MMR does exist.” I am aware of rulings that there is no demonstrable causative connection, such as the omnibus proceedings (discussed also below). If you disagree, please by all means give us a citation. I think that at best this is a common anti-vax talking point that the author has swallowed uncritically; as an attorney she should know better.
I would appreciate some citations from the author to any court cases ruling that such a causative link exists. Or the vaccine inserts the author falsely claims also report such a link? The only reference to autism in any insert I’m aware of simply says that it’s been reported by others as an adverse condition, which is not a statement that there is a causative link.
The author also responds to the lack of any causative connection between thimerosol and autism by asking, “[a]re you sure there’s no co-relation?” This is a logical fallacy; correlation does not imply causation. In any event, there are better correlations: http://kfolta.blogspot.com/2013/02/organic-food-causes-autism.html.
Similarly, the author of that piece asks whether the “0.1 – 0.5 mg/L [of aluminum] present in each dose of a vaccine” is concerning. Anti-vaxers do not like the research on this question, and seem (like the author) to be generally unfamiliar with it, but this is an empirical question with an established answer: http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/scienceresearch/ucm284520.htm. The sum total of aluminum a child gets in a year’s vaccine is about four days’ worth of the accepted safe exposure, even assuming intravenous injection and a 2.2-pound baby. The research establishes that aluminum exposure stays within known safe limits and it has not been demonstrated to cause actual harm.
The author of that piece also says, “so many people have reported the development of autism post-vaccine that the Autism Omnibus Proceeding was established to handle these cases.” But the author is misleading her readers with a tactical omission: Cedillo v. Sec. HHS has been decided already and the appeals are complete. The court rejected petitioners’ claims regarding a link between autism and vaccines. Eliding that information doesn’t seem to have any purpose other than to mislead her readers.
Also on the legal front, she misrepresents the Supreme Court’s ruling in Bruesewitz v. Wyeth. If the author really believes that the Court exempted vaccine manufacturers from all product liability claims–including defective manufacture and failure to warn claims–I would appreciate some citation or language supporting that contention. I think this is another talking point she’s repeating without personally knowing (or bothering to check) whether or not it’s true.
Further, she claims without support that it is nonsensical to argue that unvaccinated children put vaccinated children at risk. It does not appear that she even understands this concern, much less can refute it; vaccinations are typically not 100% effective, meaning that even vaccinated children can be at risk when unvaccinated children become carriers. We all benefit from herd immunity.
Given the many errors and omissions, it appears that the author is not at all familiar with the overall science on this issue. That’s not surprising, as she (like me) isn’t a scientist or an expert in this field. But the result is that someone reading this piece, if they believed she had a deep or substantive understanding of the topic, would come away with misconceptions and false impressions.
If people want to really review the science, which I highly recommend, should look for the balance of scientific opinion. The American Academy of Pediatrics has a good summary of research at http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf. The Institute of Medicine, a division of the National Academy for the sciences, has another significant report analyzing all the literature at at http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety.aspx.
http://www.livingwhole.org/dear-parents-are-you-being-lied-to/
It’s neither, and uncritically reports numerous false facts. Someone reading that piece without access to better information would be deeply misled about the issue. Please see my specific criticisms above.
Thank you for this article with links to actual evidence! Unfortunately I don’t think the anti-vaxxers will be convinced. In fact a recent study showed that anti-vaxxers, when presented with scientific evidence disproving their beliefs, merely dug in their heels and stubbornly became even MORE determined to believe vaccines were evil. The study called for a less antagonistic strategy for convincing anti-vaxxers to vaccinate. Interesting psychology there, huh?
I’d also like to point out that vaccines are NOT a profitable industry for biopharma. Most vaccines are heavily subsidized by governments because they do not generate profit for biopharma. This is coming straight from a friend who works for biopharma and works all day to get vaccines funded through various budgets. Not everything is a conspiracy, people!
I will say this much… I’m definitely not anti-vaccine or anti science… I believe that vaccines have served an immense service to human beings and that the anti vaccine campaigns especially after being turned on its head are largely ignored by me… The only thing i find your article does is undermine natural science health all together…i believe in the idea of a holistic approach to health… I personally use my medical doc and a naturopath for my health and i can attest to the difference taking natural remedies has made to my health… I think there is a huge movement where both natural medicine and allopathic medicine are pitted against each other as opponents… When the truth is that they can work together for overall health boost
…a good ND will not disregard vaccines or allopathy,rather provide you with other tools to battle health issues… So, don’t just buy into any odd quack science, so your research and get your children vaccinated because you are more than likely putting your child at a high health risk
By exaggerating the information cited in each argument, Jennifer Raff, in her article entitled “Dear parents, you are being lied to,” makes what is (judging by the popularity of the article) an apparently compelling argument in favor of vaccinations to those unwilling to dig deeper, but is essentially a straw man once the surface is scratched….
So what part of Jennifer Raff’s CV makes her not a scientist? The Ph.D. in Anthropology or the Ph.D. in Genetics? The 10 years of basic research? The published papers?
Would I qualify? I’ve got almost 29 years experience at the bench, experience in protein biochemistry, molecular biology, immunology, sleep research, bacteriology, hepatology, and neuroscience. I’ve published numerous papers-peer reviewed, and have expertise in a broad number of techniques. I’ve considered myself a scientist since high school, but maybe I’ve been deluding myself. I’m willing to learn.
By what criteria does someone, in your estimation, become a scientist?
Scott, out of the whole article, this is really what you got hung up on??? How about her makes unsupported claims? How about the exaggeration on the information she uses to “prove” her points? How about the fact that she links to articles that have absolutely nothing to do with the points she’s trying to make???
But if you really want to get hung up on “scientist”… I never claimed that she wasn’t a scientist. By definition a “scientist” is “one engaging in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge.” By that definition, ANYONE can be a “scientist” and I acknowledged her as such in the very first sentence.
I will say, however, that her article is ANYTHING but “scientific.”
Apparently those blue highlighted words don’t show on your computer? They’re hyperlinks to cited data, papers, and in some cases blogs that cite the data. Apparently you can’t click through?
Also, as stated in your blog, Jennifer isn’t a scientist, the phrase was in quotes, typically signifying you doubt the validity of the claim. What are your criteria for a scientist and good data?
Apparently you didn’t read all of MY article, which refutes every one of her “blue highlighted words,” often using the very same sources she cited. But nevermind, if you’re going to get hung up on the word “scientist” I’ll be sure to take it out of quotations. Thanks for that tip!!!
Tina, your still begging the question. What qualifies, in your mind, as a scientist and what is the criteria for good data, and I’ll add now, what constitutes too many adverse reactions and a good risk/benefit analysis
Half the links are to no where, out dated sources and irreputable sources. I can post a CV online, too, but that doesnt mean it’s authentic.
Rina appears to be neither a scientist nor someone who is critically engaging with data. Her post goes back to the old anti-vax well for any canard she can dredge up, such as that death rates were declining prior to vaccines (which games the statistics to mislead people) and that there is scary, scary aluminum in vaccines (it’s <a href="http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/scienceresearch/ucm284520.htm"about four days’ worth of the accepted safe exposure in a year's worth of vaccines, stays within known safe limits and it has not been demonstrated to cause actual harm).
When actual scientists engage the data, they come to vastly different conclusions: “This report is the most comprehensive examination of the immunization schedule to date. The IOM committee uncovered no evidence of major safety concerns associated with adherence to the childhood immunization schedule.”
Anonymous-I just clicked through the whole thing. There were two broken links-to newspapers, which frequently turnover, and two to journals which I could not access. The vast majority were to the journal Pediatrics, which is to be expected, since we are talking primarily about children. A number of other links were to the CDC and various vaccine organizations-again within the expected norms. There is nothing wrong with old references-Watson and Crick’s Nature paper of April 25, 1953 is still perfectly good-they got the structure right. Similarly, If I were to look for a paper on the incidence of smallpox, I wouldn’t expect to find many after 1980, since the last case was in 1979. Could you be more specific as to what is wrong? Perhaps you should enlist the help of a librarian if many of the articles are behind a pay wall. There are frequently ways to get the paper for free.
Umm-so what to your mind constitutes a scientific paper? This was not intended to be a lit review or a scientific report, and is not formatted as such. It was intended as a lay review of the overwhelming scientific data-about which the CDC, IOM, WHO, and AMA have no dispute. Vaccines save lives and the risks of vaccines are much less than the risks of the disease, so I guess in that respect, you are correct-its not a lit review or report. It is a valid compilation of scientific data however, targeted at the lay public.
Please inform us as to what constitutes acceptable risk/benefit ratios, unacceptable risks, acceptable efficacy rates, and why your opinion is so much better than people with a decade or three worth of research experience, or organizations dedicated to preservation of health which have cumulative experience in (most likely) 10,000’s of man-years. Then I will be able to read your citations in view of these criteria and determine whether they measure up or not. Of course, I will also consider the opinion of the previous organizations and see what they say, and see if their opinions are coincident with yours.
Thank you 🙂
There are flaws in the logic of this article. Like comparing ingesting aluminum to it being shot directly into the bloodstream.
If you don’t like the analogy, you can go straight to the research: http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/scienceresearch/ucm284520.htm
“The authors based their calculations on the series of vaccinations that deliver the maximal possible levels of aluminum during an infant’s first year of life and the assumption that infants would receive the entire recommended schedule of vaccines during this time. . . . Using the updated parameters, the authors found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.”
Colin-Thanks! I was actually at the bench when writing that, didn’t bother going to the FDA for primary sources. Nice of you to provide them. Not that it makes any difference-“‘There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.” -The Works of Thomas Chalkley, 1713
I am reblogging this. I am a HUGE supporter of vaccinations. I feel it is irresponsible for people NOT to vaccinate their kids. I have a friend with an immune disorder called Juvenile Myositis. Basically, she gets really, really ill from the common cold. Anything worse could potentially kill her. She has been vaccinated and so has her son. Unvaccinated kids and adults are a danger to her LIFE.
It’s irresponsible to re-blog this strong one sided, scare tactic garbage. Bravo, Darcy, Bravo.
It’s irresponsible to expose your kids to measles, mumps, polio, whooping cough, etc… because you choose not to vaccinate your kids. Those diseases are not minor diseases. Now, I am not fully on board with the chickenpox vaccine, but the others I am. It just makes sense.
Who says I am exposing them to the illnesses?
By not vaccinating you are unless you can ensure that every person they come into contact with doesn’t have the disease or has been vaccinated. Just saying.
@Darcy,
What about your children who were unable to receive the MMR before 15 months? Were you exposing them?
“I am a huge supporter of vaccinations”
Think about that sentence for a moment. The very idea that anyone should say that they “support” vaccinations makes me sad. It’s like needing yo say that you “support” hydration. Like hydration, vaccination should be so obvious that it shouldn’t need to be said.
I agree with you there! Unfortunately, many parents don’t feel that vaccinations are necessary. So, it is necessary to say I support vaccinations. I don’t understand the anti-vac movement. Like you said, vaccinations should be obvious, but to some parents, they are not and that is very sad that those parents are exposing their kids to diseases that are life threatening and should be eradicated.
Reblogged this on Words to Live By… and commented:
For anyone who chooses not to vaccinate your kids, you need to be aware of the dangers you are posing not only to yourself and your kids, but other people whose immune systems are compromised. Not only that but you are preventing preventable diseases from being eradicated.
I have 3 points to make:
1. We don’t know what causes autism. New studies are finding expression of the autism gene(s) in utero. Meaning while the mother is still pregnant. I personally don’t believe that it is caused by vaccines.
2. I’m vaccinated, and my vaccines are up to date, so this really isn’t my problem.
3. As a healthcare professional, I make SURE my daughter is vaccinated. So I’m not that worried about it.
If I knew one of my friends children were unvaccinated, they would no longer be welcome in my home. I’m not trying to spread a disease from the health care facility that I worked at to a child or vice versa. Think about it.
Do you ask to see prove of up to date immunizations when inviting someone through your door? Their health history is protected.
Hmmmm. But if you are vaccinated you are safe. Why are you so afraid of the unvaccinated? because they dont work.. thats why.
I’m glad I’m not a brainiac and cannot relate to the majority of people I meet. Where would life on Earth be without disease? Disease and death are necessary and good. We shouldn’t strive so hard to prevent illnesses as much as we do… Better to prevent pain.
Fiona Apple!? Is that really you!!???
Finally! The vaccine shills admit their game: “Dear parents, you are being lied to.”
Fact: I was vaccinated as a child
Fact: I did not die from any vaccine-preventable illness
Fact: I do not have autism
Correlation does not being Causation, for example
Fact: I have on a watch
Fact: I have not been attacked by a Tiger
This means my watch keeps away Tigers
Fact: I was not vaccinated as a child
Fact: I did not die from any vaccine-preventable illness
Fact: I do not have autism.
Boy, that was fun!
Fact: I was vaccinated as a child.
Fact: I did not die from any vaccine-preventable illness
Fact: I do not have autism.
Fact: I have no training in alligator feeding.
Fact: I fed that alligator 999 times with my ten fingers.
Fact: I fed that alligator for the 1,000th time and walked away with nine fingers.
Calm, peaceful, serene and lawful metaphors would induce mindful use of long searched vaccines. A fellow worker got polio because he was born one year before the vaccine was finally stumbled upon. He still struggles to walk. Count your blessings.
The article that allegged there was an association between vaccinations and autism was retracted by the scientific journal that published it because the author fabricated the data.