In light of recent outbreaks of measles and other vaccine preventable illnesses, and the refusal of anti-vaccination advocates to acknowledge the problem, I thought it was past time for this post.
Dear parents,
You are being lied to. The people who claim to be acting in the best interests of your children are putting their health and even lives at risk.
They say that measles isn’t a deadly disease.
But it is.
They say that chickenpox isn’t that big of a deal.
But it can be.
They say that the flu isn’t dangerous.
But it is.
They say that whooping cough isn’t so bad for kids to get.
But it is.
They say that vaccines aren’t that effective at preventing disease.
But 3 million children’s lives are saved every year by vaccination, and 2 million die every year from vaccine-preventable illnesses.
They say that “natural infection” is better than vaccination.
But they’re wrong.
They say that vaccines haven’t been rigorously tested for safety.
But vaccines are subjected to a higher level of scrutiny than any other medicine. For example, this study tested the safety and effectiveness of the pneumococcal vaccine in more than 37,868 children.
They will say that doctors won’t admit there are any side effects to vaccines.
But the side effects are well known, and except in very rare cases quite mild.
They say that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
It doesn’t. (The question of whether vaccines cause autism has been investigated in study after study, and they all show overwhelming evidence that they don’t.)
They say that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism.
It doesn’t, and it hasn’t been in most vaccines since 2001 anyway.
They say that the aluminum in vaccines (an adjuvant, or component of the vaccine designed to enhance the body’s immune response) is harmful to children.
But children consume more aluminum in natural breast milk than they do in vaccines, and far higher levels of aluminum are needed to cause harm.
They say that the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (and/or the “vaccine court”) proves that vaccines are harmful.
It doesn’t.
They say that the normal vaccine schedule is too difficult for a child’s immune system to cope with.
It isn’t.
They say that if other people’s children are vaccinated, there’s no need for their children to get vaccinated.
This is one of the most despicable arguments I’ve ever heard. First of all, vaccines aren’t always 100% effective, so it is possible for a vaccinated child to still become infected if exposed to a disease. Worse, there are some people who can’t receive vaccinations, because they are immune deficient, or because they are allergic to some component. Those people depend upon herd immunity to protect them. People who choose not to vaccinate their children against infectious diseases are putting not only their own children at risk, but also other people’s children.
They say that ‘natural’, ‘alternative’ remedies are better than science-based medicine.
They aren’t.
The truth is that vaccines are one of our greatest public health achievements, and one of the most important things you can do to protect your child.
I can predict exactly the sort of response I will be getting from the anti-vaccine activists. Because they can’t argue effectively against the overwhelming scientific evidence about vaccines, they will say that I work for Big Pharma. (I don’t and never have). They will say that I’m not a scientist (I am), and that I’m an “Agent 666” (I don’t know what that is, but I’m pretty sure that I’m not one).
None of these things are true, but they are the reflexive response by the anti-vaccine activists because they have no facts to back up their position. On some level, deep down, they must understand this, and are afraid of the implications, so they attack the messenger.
Why are they lying to you? Some are doing it for profit, trying to sell their alternative remedies by making you afraid of science-based medicine. I’m sure that many others within the anti-vaccine movement have genuinely good intentions, and do honestly believe that vaccines are harmful. But as a certain astrophysicist recently said “The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it”. In the case of vaccine truthers, this is not a good thing. Good intentions will not prevent microbes from infecting and harming people, and the message that vaccines are dangerous is having dire consequences. There are outbreaks of vaccine-preventable illnesses now throughout the United States because of unvaccinated children.
In only one respect is my message the same as the anti-vaccine activists: Educate yourself. But while they mean “Read all these websites that support our position”, I suggest you should learn what the scientific community says. Learn how the immune system works. Go read about the history of disease before vaccines, and talk to older people who grew up when polio, measles, and other diseases couldn’t be prevented. Go read about how vaccines are developed, and how they work. Read about Andrew Wakefield, and how his paper that claimed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism has been withdrawn, and his medical license has been revoked. Read the numerous, huge studies that have explicitly examined whether autism is caused by the vaccine…and found nothing. (While you’re at it, read about the ongoing research to determine what IS the cause—or causes —of autism, which is not helped by people continuing to insist that vaccines cause it).
That may seem like a lot of work, and scientific papers can seem intimidating to read. But reading scientific articles is a skill that can be mastered. Here’s a great resource for evaluating medical information on the internet, and I wrote a guide for non-scientists on how to read and understand the scientific literature. You owe it to your children, and to yourself, to thoroughly investigate the issue. Don’t rely on what some stranger on the internet says (not even me!). Read the scientific studies that I linked to in this post for yourself, and talk to your pediatricians. Despite what the anti-vaccine community is telling you, you don’t need to be afraid of the vaccines. You should instead be afraid of what happens without them.
Edited to add: This video is an outstanding summary of many of these issues. I encourage you to watch it.
“Humans try to make sense of the world by seeing patterns. When they see a disease or condition that tends to appear around the time a child is a year or so old, as autism does, and that is also the age that kids get particular shots, they want to put those things together. Parents watch kids more carefully after they get shots. Sometimes they pick up on symptoms then. Just because two things happen at the same time doesn’t mean that one caused the other. This is why we need careful scientific studies.”
Note: For people coming via a direct link, please also feel free to participate in a follow-up discussion
here.
1/13/15: Edited to update broken hyperlinks. If you find any additional broken links, please don’t hesitate to let me know. –JR
4/19/16: Edited again to update more broken hyperlinks. If you find more, keep letting us know and we’ll keep fixing them. –CM
Violent metaphors 
Having your child vaccinated is your choice. In my opinion vaccines are nothing but toxic to inject your kids with. Could probably hold them down and blow cigarette smoke in their face for a full day thatll be equivalent to a vaccine. Btw from facts and ppl i know you can get sick from what you were vaccinated for a you can spread it. My childs not vaccinated and is healthier than any vaccinated child i know. My cousin almost died as an infant from getting the combo vaccine. Personal experience personal choice no one will ever change my mind about it. Do your research is it really worth it??
“Vaccines are not 100% effective.” Reason enough not to subject my kids to them.
Aside from that, since when it is my responsibility to look out for the health and wellbeing of a stranger’s child? My kids are my responsibility, yours are yours.
The end.
““Vaccines are not 100% effective.” Reason enough not to subject my kids to them.”
And I presume you apply the same standard to vitamins and a healthy diet (not 100% effective at reducing illness), seat belts, car seats, and airbags (not 100% effective at presenting injury in a car crash), education beyond grammar school (not 100% guaranteed to improve your lot in life), or other forms of health care (not 100% guaranteed to cure your illness)?
It’s a good thing you don’t feed your children well, or buckle them in their car seats, or educate them, or make sure they have any other form of healthcare. You are upholding your 100% infallibility standard for those, too, right?
That comment is so despicable, it makes me sick. Luckily, I got the flu vaccine, so actual illness is unlikely. Too bad I can’t get vaccinated against reading heartless, stupid comments like yours.
Wow, grow up everyone and have a dignified debate.
By spouting things back and forth will solve nothing it appears both sides r hard headed im not going to give u my opinion but one of the sides is sooooo wrong plus if there were no anonymous setting half these people would be to scared to say anything and keep their mouth shut some of u r fools for starting the fighting and some of u r fools for taking the bate and continuing the argument no ones gonna change their opinion we as a world r narssusists period
I agree, I’m just too lazy to fill out my name, lol!
http://www.endalldisease.com/the-vaccine-hoax-is-over-secret-documents-reveal-shocking-truth/
I tried to read that page, but it just rants on and on–I can’t even identify what “secret documents” they’re talking about. Can you point to what those documents are?
it basically says because FOIAs were not honored by our government about information from the cdc that vaccines are a hoax.
Thanks. I thought that might be what they were driving at, but I couldn’t figure out what “secret documents” the were referring to. I guess they assume that such documents exist, and since they haven’t been disclosed in response to the FOIA request they must be secret?
http://gianelloni.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied-to/
This post relies on some particularly hoary misrepresentations. As I’m a lawyer, not a scientist, I’ll focus on the legal issues. (For the scientific issues, I’d suggest that readers not credit an author with a “bachelors in science and years of experience as a lab tech” over the Institute of Medicine, a charter of the National Academy for the Sciences. Its report analyzes all the extant scientific literature and concludes that in the balance, there is “no evidence of major safety concerns associated with adherence to the childhood immunization schedule.”
As for the legal issues, the piece you linked is woefully unreliable. It appears written to persuade people by giving them as little information as possible and spinning it as hard as possible. It complains, for example, that the NVICP pays out “$100M a year in damage,” but that is an absurdly small amount given that well over ten million vaccines are given each year. Car crashes run into the hundreds of billions of dollars each year.
In fact, in the court’s lifetime, less than four thousand people (last time I looked at the numbers) had filed a claim. That’s not just counting the people who won their claim, it’s everyone who filed a claim (which is quite easy to do, since the government pays for your lawyer). In any given year, on average well over ten million vaccines are given and less than a thousand people even file a claim for compensation for an injury. That’s a safe product.
She also complains that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe,” trying to make those words scary. But “unavoidably unsafe” is a legal term of art. Roughly, it refers to a product (like a drug) that cannot be designed in such a way as to have no side effects, but has benefits that outweigh those side effects. This comprehensive explanation used the term “ethical” product, which I like.
Finally, the piece you linked restates–for about the millionth time–that “the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act releases all manufacturers and administers of vaccines from all liability from any injury caused by a vaccine.” No. I have lost track of how many times I’ve corrected this error. (Not one anti-vaxer seems to have gone back and corrected themselves; I doubt the piece you linked will be the first.)
The Act releases vaccine makers from one of the three types of product liability suits. Parents can still sue if they think the vaccine was negligently manufactured or failed to warn them of possible side effects (such as autism, which I don’t think any vaccine warns against).
For parents who want to sue on the third type of product liability suit, defective design, they can do so in the vaccine court. They have huge advantages there over normal courts: the government pays for their lawyers even if they lose, and for most ailments they don’t even have to prove that the vaccine caused their injury, just that their injury occurred sometime after getting a vaccine.
The piece you linked is highly irresponsible. Interested readers should really stick with what the experts say.
Well I guess my family must be the odd ones out then. My brother had seizures til he was 8 because of his vaccines. He was given a settlement because of it (proving Dr.s acknowledged and admitted it was from his vaccines). My other brother stopped talking at 2 right after his vaccines and started screaming. Didn’t talk again for an entire year. Now has mild autism. My niece just died 6 hours after her vaccines last November when she was perfectly healthy. So while I don’t believe that all vaccines are bad, I don’t believe in just taking Dr.s orders as gospel either. Phen phen use to be ok for you too. Boy were they wrong. So science can in fact be wrong, especially because we have imperfect people doing that science.
Stop having children! It is the single most selfish act in the world. Just a bunch of little “you’s” walking around the planet is a testament to the “me, me, me” society. The world is too overpopulated as it is and there are thousands upon thousands of parent-less children waiting to be adopted. You’re just a bunch of sheep or lemmings acting on what everyone else is doing without thinking of the consequences or greater picture. Parents are the most selfish of all humans. Pay for your own vaccinations and everything else that you expect society to do for you. Enjoy your feces infected public swimming pools too, you deserve it. No sympathy whatsoever.
http://wearechange.org/fda-vaccine-insert-lists-autism-adverse-reaction/
This link has already been trotted out and debunked. The insert the video shows only states that people have reported autism as an adverse event. But that doesn’t establish causation; anyone can list just about anything as an adverse reaction.
this article lies flat out. “They say that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism. It doesn’t , and it hasn’t been in most vaccines since 2001 anyway .” this is completely untrue it is still in atleast half of them. And just so u know the cdc openly admits they have NEVER dont a large study on wether the mmr vaccine causes autism.
What is the chance of my child suffering a serious adverse reaction and maybe even dying after getting a vaccine or a combination of vaccines? (For some answers, you don’t have to look any further than the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System and the Federal Vaccine Court which, by the way, has paid more than $2 billion to families of vaccine-injured children since 1989. How does our government create a FEDERAL VACCINE COURT and still deny a link between vaccines and autism? Or anyother disability. Why do they give a 200 lb man the same dose they give a 8lb baby? It’s ludicrous.)
” They say that the aluminum in vaccines (an adjuvant, or component of the vaccine designed to enhance the body’s immune response) is harmful to children. But children consume more aluminum in natural breast milk than they do in vaccines , and far higher levels of aluminum are needed to cause harm “.
babies who follow the recommended vaccination schedule are injected with nearly 5,000 mcg (5 mg) of aluminum by the time they are just 1.5 years old.
The FDA considers levels of aluminum up to 0.85mg to be “safe,” so you do the math on the risk involved here.
Can you cite any kind of source for your claims regarding thimerosol and the CDC? I’m having trouble squaring this with your claim that no one’s studying the supposed MMR/autism link.
Your comments about the vaccine court are also just more talking points that have been repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly debunked. Yes, the court has paid more than $2 billion during its lifetime, over 25 years. But that number only sounds large if you don’t know the context. Even small claims add up fast in a nation of over 300 million people! For example, in one year automotive accidents alone rack up nearly $250 billion.
In fact, in the court’s lifetime, less than four thousand people (last time I looked at the numbers) had filed a claim. That’s everyone who files, which is free since the government pays for your lawyers, not just the ones who win. Fewer than a thousand people in almost every year. And in every year, well over ten million vaccines are administered. That’s a safe product.
Your aluminum nonsense is, again, more of the same debunked talking points. Your 0.85mg number is new to me–the numbers I’ve seen are expressed in mg/kg of body weight, so I don’t know where you’re getting that from. The sum total of aluminum a child gets in a year’s vaccine is about four days’ worth of the accepted safe exposure, even assuming intravenous injection and a 2.2-pound baby. The research establishes that aluminum exposure stays within known safe limits and it has not been demonstrated to cause actual harm.
How timely…
http://www.wtsp.com/videos/news/nation/2014/04/06/7381295/
Flu vaccine contains thimerisol. Pediatric offices advise getting flu shots every year for all children.
1) What’s your point? 2) While flu vaccines do still contain trace amounts, virtually every other immunization is now thimerosal-free. 3) Researchers have spent the past 15 years thoroughly investigating these supposed connections and have found no compelling evidence to support an anti-vaccine argument.
http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228
That website is complete garbage and discusses mostly issues that have little or no relevance to human vaccination. Also, the studies are about as unimpressive as they come, with huge differences in N between the treatment and control groups.
I appreciate the free exercise of speech and value opinions as well as facts. It would be a benefit to everyone to be civil, even through differences. I have had the unfortunate experience of a child who suffered an adverse reaction to an immunization. Holding your blue-grey seizing child who is unresponsive for not quite 48 hours is a frightening thing! So are the limitations on what good doctors and nurses could or couldn’t do for my child while we were in the hospital. Vaccinations are not for everyone. There are complications, there are risks. As a parent, as Americans, we should still have a choice. The anti-vaccination crowd, as they are called, are making the right to choose to vaccinate or not more apparent to parents. For so many years vaccinating your child was not presented as an option, but as a requirement. I have had doctors advise that I continue to vaccinate as well as those who have clearly explained the potential negative impact of a second adverse reaction and suggested that I refrain for further immunizations. I trusted more the physician who clearly explained the potential dangers if vaccination was attempted again. We have since tested my child’s immunity to infectious diseases and have narrowed down what single vaccines might benefit my child. In summary, respect for those who face challenges that are different from your own is better than attempting to lump everyone together. All people who refrain from vaccines are not bad, ignorant, risky or uninformed. Naturally the same applies to those who do choose to vaccinate.
Here is a connumdrum: I personally know a family who chooses not to vaccinate because they don’t want to put toxins into their children, yet they feed them processed foods with ingredients most definitely made in a lab. They also use store baby wipes to wipe their bums and disposible diapers and let their baby chew on a bum wipe when he was teething.
The reality is, everyone makes their decisions based on what people share on facebook, whether it is fact or fiction, science or pseudoscience. Shares, videos, blog posts, that’s how people make decisions now. That’s how they get their information. My only hope is that our education system teaches our children how to critically evaluate information they obtain from the internet so that they can filter through the garbage and know how to make well-informed decisions.
Decisions should never be made based on social media.
There is no scientific proof of a CAUSAL relationship between vaccination and autism just anecdotal correlation. There is a difference.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/03/24/drug-companies-extra-payments-researchers-raise-conflict-interest-concerns/N2xZV00WnLGhaHGH3c07OK/story.html
As long as we have international travelers and immigrants who come here illegally no one in the “heard,” referring to our citizens, is completely safe. International travelers and illegal immigrants do not follow our immunization guidelines. In addition, they may bring infectious diseases with them as a carrier exposing a host of innocent people. Certainly some diseases are more prevalent in certain regions of the world than in others. Through immunization can we really be safe from all strains of illness? It seems that illness and disease have persisted in-spite of our best efforts to protect the masses from them. So, I wonder if America would have less of these illnesses if we required visitors and transplants to receive the full list of recommended vaccines before entering our country. Perhaps by looking at external variables, rather than choosing to pick each other apart and limit our own protected constitutional rights, we can reach a better conclusion. Just a thought…..
Earlier someone mentioned that viruses mutate to survive. It’s 100% true. Vaccines are simply a catalyst for such alterations. Mutations would occur at a much slower rate without them.
And yes, outbreaks occur when someone contracts a virus/disease in another country and brings it back. The ‘scientific community’ will then propose everyone in the world receive a laundry list of immunizations. Impossible. Who pays for such an undertaking?
Mercury in flu shots to pregnant women give the fetus 200 times the safe dose of mercury and causes autism, Asperger’s, diabetes, ADD, asthma, spontaneous miscarriages and lowered IQs which can make people grow up to be stupid enough to vote for democrats and republicans. You cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain with ALA.
3 responses debunking everything in this article.
http://gianelloni.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied-to/
http://www.livingwhole.org/dear-parents-are-you-being-lied-to/
Here are 84 papers/studies linking vaccines and their ingredients to autism.
http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2007/06/no-evidence-of-any-link.html
How are vaccines made? That’s all you need to know. Then make up your own minds as to whether or not they are safe.
They’re made after extensive safety and efficacy testing.
The article above is reasoned, provides supporting evidence and is worth reading. The comments though, the comments… a few are sensible but overall, I despair for our race. What a sick picture they make of human beings, their frailties, their ignorance and their bile.
try harder, folks. Show a little compassion and, yes, humanity
In the 1990s, the spectrum of Autism was broadened. Prior to that time, the diagnosis of Autism was limited to children who had crippling learning disabilities, were non-verbal, had violent outbursts, etc. Now, I have met several parents who have kids that by all appearances have no issues, but are diagnosed with Autism because they’re a little hard to control in the classroom or throw temper tantrums when they can’t eat pizza every night for dinner. I do not mean to come off as lacking compassion, but the stark reality is that many people have made money off the hysteria created around Autism. Or how about “Sensory Disorder”? Or what about in the early 90’s, when everyone had ADHD? When our environment has changed so much in the last twenty years…how can vaccines be singled out when you have animals pumped so full of hormones and foods that are so processed, that the majority of their ingredients are produced in a lab somewhere? My grandmother use to make ice cream with cream, sugar and vanilla extract and now you can’t even pronounce the ingredients on a carton of it you buy from the store. Blaming it on vaccines is just an easy thing to do, when it’s far more complicated than that.
Yeah Autism is a total myth. Go big pharma, yay!
Idiot.
I see a lot of your posts here Anonymous. Glad my kids will grow up in a society without polio, had wished the same about measles. I would encourage you to travel to India or Sub-Saharan Africa where vaccines are rare or non-existent, so unpretty. You have a skewed first world perspective, born of privilege and medical abundance. Vaccines enable you to be this way, through the lack of disease in our privileged society..
Go back to your cave and eat some reishi mushroom, and keep your disease vector kids away from mine, please!
don’t suppose sanitation has anything to do with that?
sanitation and sterile procedure was occurring long before the debut of mainstream vaccinations. So no.
No, No, it’s beautiful. It’s truly beautiful.
They really pushed hard on polio vaccinations in India these last few years. The last case was three years ago, so they’re declaring India polio free now!
Yeah, yeah, what a thing to be joyful about!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City/Bangalore/Polio-warriors-mission-is-far-from-over/articleshow/33414489.cms
Dear Dan, I am all for vaccines but the current schedule is a cause of problems in many children. My son is one of them. The MMR caused his autism. Before you say no, I watched his behavior go from completely normal for his age to autistic in a matter of days after he had the vaccine. Yale University is also conducting tests to see if Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in children is caused by an autoimmune reaction which damages the brain. The immune systems of many autistic children do not function properly. Until you have a child that spends two weeks in the mental ward because he threatened to kill you, don’t think you can dare point your finger at me for being angry at pharmaceutical companies. Just in case you want to throw back that myth that vaccines don’t cause autism, then ask the government why they have a vaccine court which relieves vaccine makers of liability. Most of the autistic children’s families whose cases are heard are forbidden to speak about the results by the court.
No, it didn’t.
I’d like to chime in here if I could. “Anonymous”, you may be misinterpreting what is going on with your child. Sometimes children develop a sudden onset of developmental disabilities. That may simply be coincidence that the age at which most children develop that type of sudden onset of developmental regression just happens to occur at a time when they are getting a lot of vaccines. One does not necessarily cause the other. Without definitive proof, all you have is a fallacy of logic. The, now overwhelming, evidence shows no correlation between autism and vaccines. This is not a new event your child experienced either. It has been known that a very tiny number of children have what may or may not be an adverse reaction to vaccines. The CDC monitors all reports of vaccine reactions. The reason we vaccinate anyway is that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Herd immunity is the safest way to control dangerous diseases that kill people. When parents get scared by misinformation and stop vaccinating their children, it causes a loss of herd immunity that endangers a great many people’s lives.
I know it is hard be the parent of a child who is one of the very few whose disabilities may be caused by an immune system malfunction when the child was vaccinated. Even if the causality exists in those few cases, it does not mean vaccines cause autism. Any virus can cause an abnormal immune response in any person. My husband nearly died from getting Mono as an adult. I nearly died from getting Fifth Disease as an adult. Neither of those viruses have a vaccine. I also had chicken pox as an adult and it was a horrible experience. A loss of herd immunity endangers far more lives than any vaccine reaction possibly could. If it was just about a parent preferring their child risk getting these deadly illnesses by not vaccinating, there wouldn’t be a problem. It’s all the people who rely on herd immunity to keep them from getting the viruses. Babies who aren’t old enough for vaccines yet, people with compromised immune systems due to chemotherapy or HIV or any number of other causes are at risk when people who can be vaccinated don’t do it.
Interestingly, recent research has shown that autism and schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder are at opposite ends of the same bundle of genes. There tend to be both conditions in many family trees. Schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder is often mistaken for autism in children and it is not until they have their first psychotic break in their early 20s that it is evident that they were actually on the other end of that bundle of genes all along.
There is so much we don’t know about autism. But there are also things we do know, such as the overwhelming evidence is that vaccines don’t cause it.
To the author: I was going to write this same story, but you did it for me!
False. This is called confirmation bias and has nothing to do with vaccines.
This will be my only comment here. There *are* doctors who *do* think vaccinations may play a role in the development of autism. The endocrinologist I was seeing during my first pregnancy a few years ago warned me to be very careful how and when I vaccinated. She was doing research and was convinced there was a connection between autism and vaccinations. She moved out of state so I don’t know her final conclusions. On a side note, our pediatrician is still skeptical of the chicken pox vaccine and recommends getting the virus if possible and only vaccinating for it as a last resort.
Autism is not a myth it is simply not caused by vaccines as many people claim
I am not saying Vaccines cause autism. But rather 2.5 billion dollars of lawsuits and court rulings are says vaccines can cause autism. Take a look here http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/origihanlaw.aspx . I am not saying all vaccines are bad. But I do find it bad when my doctor can only list the active ingredients in the vaccine. He can’t tell me what the inactive ones are because he really doesn’t know.
Actually, the vaccine court had never found that vaccines cause autism-in fact, if you Google the omnibus proceedings, you’ll see that when the question was put to the test it decided quite the opposite.
Sorry, but you were misled by the very same deceptions the article was taking about.
My son became autistic after he had his second MMR. You know nothing.
Your son was autistic when he was born. You can point a finger anywhere you want, but it’s not going to make it true. Andrew Wakefield was a fraud and you’d do well to figure it out.
He also “became” autistic after a thousand other things happened in his life, but you only point your finger to MMR because somebody once claimed an autism link here.
The person who claimed this had patented a different vaccine and he was attempted to convince people to use his instead.
I have two autistic brothers, both younger than me. I was vaccinated with the standard immunisation package that was available, as was my second youngest brother no more than two years after. My youngest brother was not vaccinated. He developed autistic symptoms around the same age my other brother did. It just so happens to be the age deemed appropriate by the standards of modern medical science that children are vaccinated to ensure safety against all the diseases above.
I understand from a parent’s point of view how it is to suddenly find out your child is autistic after they receive their immunisation shots. Hell, I’ve played a parental figure for my parents who couldn’t deal with them growing up for almost 20 years. But as the eldest/non-autistic sibling who has spent most of my life taking care of them whilst studying anything and everything I could find about their condition, I can say that you can’t be so ignorant as to assume that a vaccination causes autism (which is very largely a HEREDITARY condition) where there is no science behind your claims other than superstition, rumour and guilty paranoia.
Anonymous, YOU know nothing. You don’t “become” autistic, just like you don’t “become” gay or you don’t “become” another species. Your human child was born with autism. Deal with it. Don’t raise him as the ignorant asshat you’re making yourself on these comments.
Great comment. The timing of the MMR shots and the onset of symptoms in autism dictate that some children will show symptoms shortly after being vaccinated. But it is just a temporal coincidence.
Our brains are wired before vaccines to develop symptoms on the spectrum. It is abusive of parents to link vaccines to autism. It preys on their fears and their concern for their children.
Enough. Trust neurologists and immunologists, not celebrities.
Please don’t pretend that you know a thing about autism. If you would look at the requirements to be diagnosed with autism maybe you would realize that it’s much more than kids having tantrums because they are wanting pizza. Don’t spread such stupid and uneducated information.
Yes.
Can’t pronounce the ingredients, so it must be bad. Tell me: Can you pronounce Dihydrogen monoxide? How about hydroxypropane-tricarboxylic acid? No? Here’s another: Deoxyribonucleic acid. Sucrose? Methoxy-hydroxybenzaldehyde?
That’s another toughy, huh? Alright, I’ll simplfy those scary sounding names for you. In order: water, vitamin c, DNA, sugar & vanilla. Just because the names are scary looking, and hard to pronounce, doesn’t mean they are bad for you.
Hope that clears some things up for you.
I have been looking for research from either the cdc or fda on testing the vaccines in combination with each other. I found a statement from the cdc that they do not test them together. Can anyone point me to research of the fda testing them if they are administered together. I’d like to research that. Thank you.
Hi Ron,
This might be what you’re looking for: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety.aspx
There is no such research, there is actually no such research that says vaccines actually work!
How did you arrive at that bizarre conclusion? Here’s a long list of studies on effectiveness just for the flu vaccine: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/publications.htm
That’s odd. I was under the impression that the meta analysis of reliable studies done on the flu vaccine showed it had no beneficial effect in vulnerable groups such as the elderly and young children. http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2011/10/strict-meta-analysis-raises-questions-about-flu-vaccine-efficacy
If you actually read your own link, you will find that a LAIV has proven to have a beneficial effect for children between 6 months and 7 years, of 83% efficacy (higher that the efficacy in adults, that is). In people older than 65 years, there is a lack of studies because it is deemed unethical in most countries not to vaccinate this risk group. However, lack of evidence for efficacy is far from evidence of non-efficacy! One RCT of LAIV in this age group showed an efficacy of 42%. This is not high, but an effect nonetheless.
Thanks, Isaac.
I would like to think that even an idiot can come to the conclusion that vaccines work. If they didn’t work, why did all these diseases become rare in the U.S but remain prominent in countries that don’t necessarily have vaccines. I’m not a doctor or anything close to one but simple deductive reasoning leafs me to believe they work
I would think that any idiot could figure out they are being lied to by the Big Pharma. I’ve harbored many of these posts, and every one of them are harbored by Pharmaceutical Shills who sit and lie to you and show you evidence that’s fake. There are NO studies, at least no long term studies done on any vaccine OR drug. Drugs are on the market for 10 years, killing people, before the FDA pulls them. The fluoroqinonlones for example are a toxic group of antibiotics. They already took 6 off the market, and yet, 6 still there, those are killing people, maiming them, putting them in wheelchairs. BECAUSE just one of the nasty ingredients is fluoride..fluoride is toxic waste, shoots straight to the brain, causing neuropathy and a host of diseases they can put a band aid on, like fibromyalgia, etc. Most Dr.’s will never admit it’s the drug and you can never get this drug out of your body as it even hangs up in the bone marrow. There’s even a black box warning on this drug and yet they are now dishing it out like candy! Google Hitler, see what he put in mass amounts in the water for his people in concentration camps…yep, fluoride..it dumbs down and sedates you. People need to really WAKE up and see what’s going on in the world today. They are ALL liars.
You might want to loosen that tinfoil hat; it seems to be cutting off the blood supply to your brain.
Ok firstly I work in collating information about ongoing drug trials and I can tell you that there are hundreds of studies done on long term side effects. Secondly the initial trials that they do are designed to test for side effects as well as EFFICACY so don’t try and say that there is no proof that they work. If there wasn’t then they wouldn’t have been approved in the first place. The only reason some side effects are only realised later on is because they are so rare that they need a population larger than they could ever get in a clinical trial to be taking the drug before antibody ever experiences the side effect which is why they do post approval studies. Also a thing I can assure you exists. Also fluoride that you are quite happily trying to say kills people is in lots of town water supplies and in toothpaste because it is good for your teeth and there is plenty of evidence that it isn’t harmful which is why they continue to allow it to be in the water supply. If anybody is intent on lying to people it is people like you which is very dangerous for everyone else. Scare mongering and being paranoid is not going to solve the increasing problem of preventable diseases killing children and if it was only you and your children that were being affected by your ignorance and stubbornness that would be fine but it isn’t. It’s creating problems for other people and that is why people will continue to make these posts to try and educate people and avoid the completely preventable spread of disease.
Just a little point about drug trials, most of them actually ignore a lot of the more inconvenient side effects so they will sell.
Paranoid much?
LOL. you nailed it with the “WAKE UP”. 10/10
How many of the links in this article did you read? None? Citations needed for everything you are claiming or gtfo.
I only ask, where’s your proof?
You brush your teeth with more Fluoride than what is in those vaccines…
There’s nearly a 70% chance that you ingest fluoride every time you use or drink tap water, and you haven’t claimed to have any of these symptoms. http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/nohss/FluoridationV.asp
Citations for your statistics please.
http://infactvideo.com/episode/03/06/
Jeez, I can’t believe how dumbed down people are? And you really believe that article about fluoridation? Seriously?? OMG, I will pray for all of you. Did you read any of the comments on that guy that put the info out? Have you googled what fluoride really is and what they have used it for? Open up that mind, research both sides…fluoride IS poison. You are exactly the kind of people that our government loves..dumbed down and obedient to anything they tell you is truth. LOL
actually fluoride is what the dentist gives you as a child to prevent cavities, it works so well that most public water supplies are treated with fluoride, this is why the cavity rate in children went down significantly in the past. Fluoride is only dangerous in doses that massively exceed anything you’re talking about. Please educate yourself before you start spouting off stuff that you don’t understand.
Thank you for demonstrating how believing in absolute terms, ex., “They are ALL liars,” severely restricts the ability to think rationally. Rather than engaging in a discussion, you are trying to divide an issue into black/white, right/wrong and eliminate productive critical thinking processes. Because people who speak in absolutes don’t want to hear facts that refute their statements, I choose to save my time by simply insulting you. It’s my sincere hope that you are intelligent enough to understand.
I was merely quoting someone else who called us non vaccinating people idiots. And besides, I don’t think you understand anything but one side. I have researched ALL sides and made my decision, and I don’t base my decisions on scientific crap, because most Scientists are Atheists, so why would I believe anything they say? I have proof that you can live without vaccines in the form of myself, my family AND my dog. Why would I inject poison into an already healthy body? Why would I inject our bodies with something that kills our own God given immune system? Hey, the government and the Big Pharma love you guys, they have you right where they want you.
And Anya, I might be insulted if I valued your opinion, which I don’t, so no problem for me. LOL
Wow anonymous! It’s a wonder anyone who brushes their teeth is still alive hahaha
Get your facts straight … you’re making an idiot of yourself and clearly know nothing of how diseases affect and spread nor how vaccines work.
I’m embarrassed for you and see why you leave yourself anonymous. Lmfao
And you’re probably a vegan too. Yup thats vegan talk. Fucking hippie.
paranoia is contagious too.
And you have been lied to by the trillion dollar big alternative medicine industry.
Autism occurs before birth.
Wait, wait… you say you “..don’t base (your) decisions on scientific crap, because most Scientists are Atheists…”?
Atheists?
So instead, you’re, apparently, trusting some priest, someone who believes the universe is only 6 thousand years old, who believes some collection of myths handed down from 3,000 years ago by a bunch of suspicious, clueless, ignorant goat herders ago has all the “scientific” answers you’ll ever need, for your medical advice?
Damn. You’re on to us! Yes, Yes! it’s true, we’re all minions of Satan! And we’re out to get your little children and turn them all into little Satanists! That’s what’s really in all those vaccines! They’re all a Satan-spawned potion that’s going to curdle all your children’s souls! And it’s too late to stop us now! We’re coming to get you! Are you feeling the heat and smelling the sulfur yet?
Ah, hahahahahahahaha….
What a rube…
You do have a flare for the dramatic, don’t you?
WE MUST PROTECT OUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!
I’d suggest you go look up some things on pubmed. A database full of peer reviewed reports of al sorts of research studies related to medicine. And maybe after that rephrase some of your sentences.
Loads of studies have been performed on efficacy, adverse effects and long term outcomes of vaccines and other drugs by independent physicians and researchers (oh yeah, they exist.. I am one)
Just do what the author says. Educate yourself in a proper way before you go out on the web making bold statements.
You are completely right. It’s sad. Science can support their claims about this shit, measles/mumps/chicken pox were barely existent and biology supports it with the interactions of the vaccines and our immune systems. But just because they can be effective limiting the spread of diseases doesn’t mean science should ignore the INACTIVE ingredients! Seriously people, wake up.
Hygiene!
I’m pretty sure the hard evidence of certain diseases being eliminated (polio) and other greatly minimized (measles, chicken pox, etc) is evidence enough to prove vaccines work.
That is an insane comment mr/ms anonymous. How then were measles and mumps and other diseases irradicated? And why now, when certain paranoid parents are refusing to get their kids vaccinated are they starting to re emerge? Explain that!
These diseases weren’t eradicated, not by vaccines anyway. If they kill people, then how come I didn’t die as a child from measles, mumps, chickenpox all naturally??. They didn’t have those vaccines then and honestly, there were really not cases of this stuff around much, not like now, .when they jab the kids and keep the diseases alive. I have had no flu shot, nothing in my entire lifetime and I don’t get the flu. Anyone that gets the flu are always the ones vaccinated and then they come back with, well, they told me it takes two weeks for the shot to be effective?? :LOL Just another little lie. It’s been proven these shots don’t work, after all, when they give out a flu shot, it’s always before there is even a case of the flu. Just how did they know what strain it was that they are supposed to protect you from? FACT, they didn’t, unless they created it. And to the polio vaccine…it caused an outbreak,Salk saw that and tried to retract it…polio was almost totally eliminated when he brought the vaccine into existence and THAT is when the outbreak occurred again. Blinded, blinded sheeple. If you can put those vaccines in your children with a clear conscious, go for it. I am not telling you to NOT vaccinate, I am telling you to do some good research on them before you do, so you can see the ingredients that you are injecting your children with and then wonder why they get sick as time goes on, even with cancer.
YOU didn’t die from them as a kid for the same reason that not everyone who has a stroke or heart attack dies… They’re not 100% fatal. But in 1950, about 500,000 people got measles, and thousands died, where as now, about 100 people per year get it, and few if any die. And the decline occured precisely when vaccines were brought in.
Polio wasn’t eliminated when Salk created his vaccine. There were over 50,000 cases in the US in 1952, the year he developed his vaccine. Next year? 35,000. By 1955, when the vaccine was in widespread use, it was down to 2500 cases. By the 1965, after the Sabin vaccine was developed? 61 cases. Worldwide, less that 7000 get it a year now, all in a few countries where vaccination efforts are limited by war or other factors. Please explain how the vaccine causes it, if now, with widespread vaccinations, we’re getting more cases than in 1952, when the first trial was brought in. Do some research and use your head. It’s really not hard.
No Joe, you use YOUR head, it’s really not that hard. I was born in the 50’s and there was not a big outbreak of measles, seriously, where do you get your info? And where do you get your info about the polio vaccine? It WAS almost non existent, when he brought in the vaccine, WHICH caused an outbreak. Now, I can see you are obviously getting your info from “the liars, or else you are one of them in the form of a Pharma Shill. : – )
Stop doing a disservice! How stupid can you be?? What facts are you talking about??? I hope you never have children fall sick and die because of your anti-vaccine rampage. What do you gain by this??? Are you trying to sell snake oil? Because that might just be your cure-all… You really have to be a science and world ignorant that doesn’t pay attention to the rest of the world and the MILLIONS of lives saved by vaccines. Moron.
You can have that thought all you like, You are lucky im glad you are in good health but some of us not so lucky.
My parents thought the same thing I did not get it and I am perfectly fine. Well when i was not vaccinated i nearly died 7 months later after contracting the chicken pocks at day care. I had to have skin grafts. I stil have those scars because my parents did not believe the doctor. Dont risk your child. it is not worth it
My understanding of vaccines today, from “yesterday”, are the fillers that are being added now are perhaps what is causing the problem. Just like our food. 50 years ago we were eating cleaner, less processed. Now, it’s all about the chemicals.
You haven’t cited sources, so I will.
Polio cases in the US:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html#secular
Wild poliovirus, endemic in only 3 countries, with 406 cases reported world wide in 2013, down from 350,000 in 1988.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs114/en/
Vaccine Related Polio cases world wide today, under 100 per year:
http://www.polioeradication.org/Dataandmonitoring/Poliothisweek/Circulatingvaccinederivedpoliovirus.aspx
So again, how is the vaccine causing polio, except in the rare (1 in 750,000) cases of the oral vaccine becoming infectious again? Please, show me how I’m wrong.
I think it’s an encouraging sign that the only anti-vaccine arguments here are coming from obvious cranks, most of whom are refusing to leave even a first name.
Anonymous here is saying things like “seriously, where do you get your info?” after a post in which he or she dumps a bunch of random “facts” with not even a web link to back them up. They seem to think “If they kill people, then how come I didn’t die as a child from measles, mumps, chickenpox all naturally??” somehow makes sense. Words like “sheeple” are used, and some other anonymous poster brought in Hitler for no reason. This is what cranks do.
I think we’re near the point where almost all reasonable people are convinced vaccines are effective. A few are short on the facts, and when they’re exposed to excellent articles like the one we’re commenting on, and learn a couple of things about science, they’ll get it too. There’s always going to be a few cranks, incapable of dealing with an evidence based world, but even now they’re on the fringes with the creationists. Soon we’ll look back on them like some weird, early 21st century flat-earthers.
Kristinn, yea, after reading a couple other posts he’s clearly a crank: https://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/25/parents-you-are-being-lied-to/comment-page-10/#comment-20650
He won’t listen to anyone because he’s decided they’re wrong regardless of their evidence, due to his perception of their religion, despite a lack of any evidence of their religion, were it even relevant.
My guess is you are some one affected by the great recession, lost a lot due to that event, realized that maybe not everything was peachy keen and wholesome as you had thought things were. With your obvious lack of education ,and fear of those who are quite intelligent human beings, you have come to the incorrect conclusion that large organizations are out to kill their client base, instead of keeping them alive for a life time of return sales. Personally, I would like to see all you anti vaxxer nut cases put onto an island together, where you can share your “non threatening” diseases together, and not send us into dark ages 2.0. Read up on FDR, to see just how short a while it was ago when you could catch polio swimming in a lake. Look at the dark ages and what caused it. I know that I am most likely not going to make an impact on you as studies have shown, but for the love of god and all that is holy properly educate your self on resent history, and Vaccinate your family and kids.
Someone who works for the CDC lives in my neighborhood. I can tell you that many of the diseases that were eradicated in this area do not mutate quickly. The flu, however does. The flu changes all the time, which is the reason why being vaccinated the previous year doesn’t help at all for the next year. How do they know what strain it will be? They don’t, really. They do the best they can to predict what kinds of mutations will occur in the virus. Some years, the predictions are right on. Some years, the predictions aren’t, and the vaccine isn’t very effective. That’s right, someone who works to create the flu vaccine admits that that particular vaccine isn’t infallible. I personally get the flu vaccine each year because I don’t react adversely to it and it might help me keep from getting sick. I have never had the flu. I don’t know if the vaccines did any good for me for sure, but that’s what I’ve seen in myself.
Simply put, the rate of mutation for the disease determines how good or not good a vaccine will be. For something like the flu that mutates extremely quickly, I can understand how you might find that vaccine to not be worth your time. However, for other diseases which do not mutate very quickly (i.e. childhood diseases that you usually only get once), vaccines reduce the incidence of the illness.
You are one of those people I would just like to slap! Not sure how old you are, but I can tell you that polio was around WAY before the vaccine came out. My uncle had polio as a child (caught when he was two) and he is now in his sixties. He survived, but he does have neurological issues because of it. And, I promise you, he never had a vaccine. Perhaps you have been lucky. Or, perhaps you have been protected by the herd immunity of the rest of us. Who knows. All I know is you are either really confused or just flat out wrong on the dates in your head. God may have given you an immune system, but he seems to have skipped your brain.
Well thanks a lot, Mr or Mrs Ignorant for ignoring the millions of adults and children that have died from polio, smallpox, measles, mumps and meningitis. Including my own unborn child, who died as the result of measles I contracted from an unvaccinated child, when I had a weakened immune sytem due to asthma treatment while I was pregnant. Oh, and it nearly killed me too, at the age of 28. You don’t have the moral right to make decisions that affect your own children, let alone those of others, based on your own insane belief system.
And because of my asthma, I have a flu shot every year. Sometimes I do get a light dose of the flu, yes, but I have never been seriously ill nor hospitalised with asthma since I decided to have a flu shot every year. It’s only anecdotal, I know, but I feel I have truly benefited from vaccination. I remember children that didn’t get vaccinated for polio when I did, that had to go through life with withered limbs. Those that survived, of course.
I believe that in a number of cases the diseases were re-diagnosed as something else to give the impression that the vaccines were working. Again, I will have to find the source.
Fuck off dipshit
Please go educate yourself on the history of smallpox.
That’s not true
For the sake of the local breeding pool, I hope you and any spawn you may have are not vaccinated so natural selection can prevent your lineage from continuing. It is unfortunate, however, that you will not be the only ones to suffer from your willful ignorance.
People are stupid. Some are very stupid. Some, like anti-vaxers, attained a degree of stupidity that can only be the result of a special effort.
You can’t fix STUPID…stupid are those who choose to vaccinate. You reap what you sow, remember that. Unvaccinated kids are sick far less than vaccinated ones. Just go do some research, personally talk to those who don ‘t and who DO vaccinate…you will see the difference. Shaking head here…your calling us the stupid ones, well, it makes me chuckle because you are the stupid ones, because you are believing all that you are told by the Big Pharma and Doctor’s. Do you not have a clue that our government, the Big Pharma, food manufacturers, Monsanto or Monsatan as we love to call them, are all in cahoots? They are all a spoke in the wheel of deceit. I also wonder if any of you realize that we are controlled by an elite group of people, who run everything here? Are you so blinded you can’t see what’s going on right in front of your faces.. WOW! I am done because you really can’t fix STUPID! We are not the trolls, you are the trolls.
If you are not willing to post on this forum links to credible (as in scientific) evidence of the things you are writing, like unvaccinated kids get sick less often in childhood and through adulthood than vaccinated kids, I simply have to consider your “facts” and opinions not relevant to the discussion and consider you an anti-vaxxer troll. Provide me some evidence and I’ll consider your opinion. You’ve not given a citation from any source, much less a scientific study that supports your claims. I’m not interested in reading some paranoid blog post, give me science. Unlike you, I don’t care what religion a scientist is, whether they are Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim or Atheist- it doesn’t matter to me because religion has nothing to do with science or scientific studies. Give a few links that back up your claims, scientific studies, peer reviewed articles. As for your claim that most scientists are Atheists, I’d like a citation for that too.
Instead of calling people “stupid”, offer supporting evidence. insults are useless and those who resort to them as an argument, or believe they will influence people in their favor, are more stupid than those who, despite the evidence, still believe the world is flat.
Idiot. That’s all.
That is really, really stupid.
I’m not a scientist. I’m a historian and a genealogist.
These diseases used to kill kids, and now they don’t. Most of my ancestors lost at least one, sometimes more, of their kids. That’s not all accidents, birth defects, and appendicitis. One of my ancestors entered a week with three kids and left it with one. This is not an accident (they were days apart). This is not a birth defect: those kill kids immediately. This was some form of communicable disease, probably one that is now vaccinated against.
19th century medicine yields 19th century results.
if you believe that Anonymous you are to pitied and if you have kids don’t bother making any plans for their retirement because if they do get the measles it will create far more serious problems in later life or some preventable disease will kill them or cause a lot of health difficulties in the near future
Go home, Anonymous, you’re drunk.
If you don’t want to read the science, or you just don’t believe it, go downtown to the old cemeteries that are at least a hundred years old. After passing all those tiny tombstones of the children who died from the disease that are almost unknown today you will walk out a shaken and changed person. At the turn of the twentieth century, a child had only a one in three chance of growing up. Do we really want to return to that?
the anti-vaxxers seem to think we should.
Right, because it’s “natural.” It used to be natural for adults to live until age 35 or 40. Now we routinely live into our 70′ and 80s with many of our elderly being spry and active until near the end of their lives. Not everything natural is good for you, same as not everything synthetic or man made is bad for you.
If you look at official figures (which i did since i am a scientist too), you’ll see that the deathrates all were gone down with 99%, BEFORE the intro of the vaccine .
If you look even harder, you’ll notice that they went down ever more AFTER the intro of the vaccine.
And I find it hard to believe that you’re any sort of scientist considering that your sentence is all a mess.
Yes they have went down more since vaccines. But take a look at the normal rate of decline for each virus through the years prior to vaccines through present day. From the ones I have seen numbers to, the rate of decline is linear and does not drastically change after the introduction of vaccines.
You are no scientist. You cannot even write a correct, cogent sentence. Go away.
You are mistakenly neglecting the fact that a lot of disease disappeared once the miasma theory of disease was replaced with proper observation and research and the advent of clean water supply in crowded urban areas.
ALL water borne diseases diminished after clean water supply and improved sanitation happened in cities. Your contribution to this discussion is misleading and in any case, negligible.
Back under your bridge, troll.
Yes, because all reputable scientists can claim English as their first language. You’re an ass.
My first thought was that English may not be this person’s first language. It’s best not to be so judgemental Zack and Cinnamon.
So, since you’re a scientist, I trust you won’t mind giving a citation?
That’s what I was thinking, Scott. I vaccinate my child against everything but the flu. He and I have both avoided the flu shot for 5 years now, and guess what? The last time we were vaccinated was the last time we actually got the flu. I don’t know how I feel yet about all this, but I will continue to follow his vaccination schedule until I can figure it all out. I feel like studies that support vaccinations tend to leave out whether or not outbreaks occurred in vaccinated or non-vaccinated populations. I know that outbreaks have been known to arise in vaccinated populations, so if they are not stating specifically it must be because they are hiding the truth. And to say that nay sayers say nay because they want to sell alternatives to vaccines is hosh posh, in my non-scientific opinion 🙂
Keep in mind, the flu vaccine varies from year to year, to protect against the strains expected to be the most virulent that year. It’s entirely possible to be vaccinated against “the flu”, and yet still catch a strain that wasn’t part of your vaccination.
You cannot get CANNOT GET an infection from a culture that is dead. The flu vaccination is a dead culture that allows the immune system to build a defence. This means you can still get the flu but it will not be as severe as your body is prepared. Remember a flu is not a cold a cold is a virus.
It’s impossible to “get” the flu from the flu vaccine. The influenza virus is inactivated, which is why it’s not a live vaccine. What you had was an immune response. It takes up to 2 weeks for vaccine seroconversion, you could have been exposed to a flu type in the meantime or caught a strain that was not in the vaccine as it only contains 3 strains. The other alternative is that you had another infection that wasn’t flu …. a rhinovirus perhaps.
I’m not sure if I understand your comment. Are you wondering the difference between between first world areas, where most people have access to the vaccine, compared to third world where they don’t as your vaccinated/unvaccinated areas? Or do you mean in certain areas where the overwhelming majority of people are vaccinated, except for those who can’t be, and areas that willing go unvaccinated? I think (but I respectively refuse to speak in absolutes), that studies do say where they were conducted and the demographic of the study subjects. I would think in these days you would have to do a first/third world comparison for what you are talking about, as it seems unlikely that people in the same demographic would be have equal access to vaccines, and therefore, would be the same population, not easily separated. Also, lack of evidence in and of itself is not evidence of evidence being hidden. But on behalf of immune suppressed people everywhere, I do thank you for having your children vaccinated.
Pardon me, I misspoke, it seems LIKELY the people in same demographic would have the same access.
Annie Marie, I explained this earlier to someone else, but I’ll reply to your post to help answer your question. Someone who works for the CDC lives in my neighborhood. The flu virus mutates really quickly–it isn’t the same from year to year which is why there are different vaccines each year. The developers of the vaccine have to predict how the virus will mutate. They have educated ways to do this, but the unfortunate fact is that sometimes the vaccine for a particular year just isn’t as effective as other years. Maybe the year you got the shot wasn’t a good year. Because the flu vaccine is made based on predictions, I can totally understand a decision not to get that vaccine. I personally have the shot every year and have never had the flu, but I’m lucky in that regard.
For diseases that do not mutate as quickly, such as “childhood diseases” which most people only get once, vaccines are much more effective, since the vaccine is produced based on the virus that actually is out there, rather than an educated prediction.
Even the best vaccines aren’t 100% effective anyways. More people are vaccinated than not, so when an outbreak occurs, even if the vaccine does help, more vaccinated people will get sick than non-vaccinated people. Let’s say there’s a vaccine for disease X that’s 80% effective. Let’s just say for math ease that this virulent disease X gets into the bodies of 100 people– 90 are vaccinated and 10 not. In that case, 18 vaccinated people would get sick along with the 10 non-vaccinated people. Yes, more sick people were vaccinated than non-vaccinated, but the remaining 72 people had antibodies to fight off the disease thanks to the vaccine. Personally, even though I know that I might still get sick from diseases I got vaccinated against, I’d still go for the vaccination in hopes of improving my chances to stay healthy.
Hope this makes sense. I have no argument with your flu story, I just felt like explaining so you’d know why you probably had the experience you had.
Dale,
Your comments are very ill informed. Some flu vaccinations are made from attenuated influenza strains, i.e. not inactivated. The flu injections are inactivated viruses and if they have been inactivated properly should not cause infection, but other forms of flu vaccines are made from attenuated virus and can cause mild infection.
Both colds and influenza are caused by viruses. Completely different types of virus, but both viruses.
RESEARCH! RESEARCH! RESEARCH! – Give us the fact-based evidence you are basing your argument on. PLEASE!
The Flu Mist IS a live virus and anyone who believes it isn’t, is totally misinformed! Anyone I know who gets the flu are either 1…ones who take that shot, or 2. they were around someone shortly after they did Flu Mist or took the jab. Why don’t people get this stuff DOES shed through saliva, skin, feces, for an amount of time after the fact. Flu Mist is live and active over 21 days. DUH!
Amen Anonymous. With the introduction of clean water, sanitation, and antibiotics…….
Antibiotics work against bacterial infections, not viruses, which is what a vaccine works against. Antibiotics will not fix a virus.
Actually there are vaccines against bacteria too. Tetanus, pneumococcal, meningococcal, whooping cough, etc.
Heat-you do know the difference between antibiotics and antibodies. Antibiotics are low molecular weight chemicals, selectively toxic to undesired organisms. Antibodies are large (150 kDa for IgG) proteins produced by B-cells to any number of antigens, which bind with pretty high specificity to an antigen.
I have taken a class or two in immunology. My point was that there are vaccines for viruses AND bacteria.
please share your sources
I call bullshit. No scientist writes as poorly as you.
Are you looking internationally? There are countries that do not vaccinate against certain diseases, which are then carried to new countries when people travel. You can’t make the case in the US that vaccines don’t work because we have no instance or limited instances of diseases like measles when each day new people who have not been vaccinated are introducing them to our societies.
What science did you study??? Creationism? Scientology? Jesus Christ Scientist? You should have your “degree” revoked.
And maybe you should have your MOUTH revoked lol
Id like to see your scientific credentials. I think we are all aware that you are clearly not a scientist!
My guess is you run a business that sells dodgy natural remedies and earn money by fooling and scaring people who are as uneducated as yourself.
stop with your lies
You, sir/madam, are no scientist.
Any form of population control would be great, actually.
Yes let me direct you on how and what to belive on the internet by sending a link to a page that is all literature approved the Government. Wow, how dumb do you think we are???
Pretty damn.
Well, you’re dumb enough to be using an internet that was developed by the government (DARPA) DOD funded no less, and routes most traffic through the US. If you think there is such a conspiracy, you should be developing your own method of communication, cause the government can hack this system to bits-should they want. Then again, maybe there is no conspiracy.
Use Occam’s razor and make your own decision.
You can get information from a non-governmental body if you like. The Institute of Medicine reviewed the literature and “uncovered no evidence of major safety concerns associated with adherence to the childhood immunization schedule.”
if your first reaction upon reading that is to try to find some reason not to credit their report, are you really open to the facts?
When you say this, what you mean is “I have made up my mind and only evidence that supports my position should be accepted”.
This is how far too many people view the world. When one is unwilling to examine evidence, question their beliefs and think logically you get a huge segment of the populace mired in delusion and ignorance. All it would take is ONE well conceived, large, properly carried out clinical trial that showed a distinct casual link between vaccines and cognitive deficits to completely flip this debate on its head and redeem the antivaccination crowd. No such study has ever been produced despite numerous attempts.
As it is, you are basing your opinions on the since discredited “study” by a fraud published and since redacted by the Lancet and the opinions of Hollywood celebrities led by a former Playboy playmate who didnt know that the Earth rotated once every single day.
Dumb as a fucking brick, frankly.
Personally, I would like to see a parent, whose child (who couldn’t be vaccinated for whatever reason,, or the vaccination just didn’t work) was infected by an un-vaccinated child, to sue the parents of said un-vaccinated child into financial ruin.
this is the only way these anti-vaxxers are going to get the freaking message. their CHILDREN are walking time bombs by being un-vaccinated, and a THREAT, yes a THREAT to the community. Said unvaccinated children should not be allowed anywhere public and kept at home 24/7.
That is the LIFE these ignorant and uneducated parents chose for their children, they should live with the consequences.
If you trust vaccinations so much to prevent disease in those who are inoculated then why would you be scared for your children s safety. Those who are un-vaccinated in theory should not effect those who are. The explanation that it “didn’t work” occurs on a similar rate of infection as the virus does normally without inoculation. For example, look at rates of flu in those vaccinated and those who are not. Same rate of infection among the populations. Food for thought!!
He just said stated that it would be someone who wanted to vaccinate their child, but could not due to other reasons (EG a congenital immunoficiency disease). At least read that far before you reply angrily.
Also if it was the child’s choice whether or not to get vaccinated, then I wouldn’t have a problem. But it’s a parent’s duty to do their best to protect and nurture their children at least until they are adult’s, and the overwhelming body of evidence is there that vaccinations prevent disease, and have few side effects. Arguably less side effects that almost any other form of medicine. And I don’t know what vaccination you are talking about, but im pretty sure polio, the measles and others occur at a MUCH greater rate in the vaccinated than the vaccinated. (Flu shot is different, it’s a whole different can of worms).
Good god, you just make shit up, don’t you?
Holy crap! I’ve never heard that one before! For the 10 Goolth (that’s 10 followed by one hundred zeroes. look it up) time: We’re not only worried about our children! We’re also worried about the immuno-compromised, the very young, and very old that cannot be.
For fuck’s sake! Think about someone other than yourselves.
Sounds like a form a medical fascism to me Keoki! There are merits to the science but if you look around the globe and see what greed and special interest has and is doing !!! Especially in the medical industry.
REMEMBER doctors with CIGARETTES!!!!! promoting them! lol hahahaha
https://www.google.ca/search?q=old+doctor+cigarette+ads&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=n7xEU8SOMaa-sQTaoIKwBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=799
Well, enough said. Trust is all but gone. People “believed” years ago that all was well and safe because the west was dominated not by rational thinking but by Semitic oriented religious dogma and blatant stupidity. 30 years later and people now have the guts to question and demand results and evidence. Cats out of the bag!!!!
Who’s more ignorant the sheep for the slaughter who’s fooled by the wolves in sheep’s clothing?? Or the Wolf itself…. In human terms one of the latter is an asshole in a suit or maybe with a stethoscope and syringe.
We need the search for the truth not to funded by the corrupt companies.
BTW what happens if all these lovely viruses evolve once day and attack? Or maybe just 2 of them happen to do so.
Anyways, so far your an asshole!
I do believe it is “so far YOU’RE an asshole.”
Brief overview of the process of how a vaccine gets to market:
1) Researchers interested in the field of immunology study an ever-changing virus to see if they can find a substance which prevents it’s affects.
2) Eventually, they find a solution which works, so now they test it to see whether it is safe for consumption. During clinical trials, any and all side effects are noted and registered. If it is unsafe in any way, it is removed and a new solution is sought (return to step 1).
3) Success! They have achieved a working, safe vaccine, now it needs to be distributed. A pharmaceutical company who are able to produce the vaccine will manufacture and distribute the solution.
What sometimes happens later:
A problem, some people do not believe this vaccine is safe. We must show them our data and other scientific papers detailing the results found, but how can we do this? Perhaps the pharmaceutical company will help out with spreading the availability of this knowledge? After all, they are invested in our research, so it would be in their interest to help us.
Viruses are continuously evolving. One which famously evolves extremely quickly is the flu virus – it continuously makes new strains, several a year. This is why there is a yearly flu vaccine, which may not prevent all cases, there are simply too many.
The bottom line is that if these diseases which we have developed vaccines against evolve and “attack”, the ones who will die first are those un-vaccinated and less resistant to the virus. Then those un-vaccinated but resistant will die. Then those vaccinated but less resistant will die. If no prevention is found by now, then the rest die.
A vaccinated individual can not be an original origin of an outbreak of one of the diseases int he vaccine. The origin can only be from an un-vaccinated individual. It is extremely unlikely for a vaccinated individual to be able to infect someone with the virus, however there is no protection from an un-vaccinated individual.
If your child was immuno-deficient in a way that prevented them from having a vaccine, though you wanted them to have one, and another child that they play with is also un-vaccinated through the parents choice, there is a danger to both individuals.
Keoki’s point is that, if your child’s friend catches one of these diseases, becomes ill, and passes it to your child, resulting in the death of you child, you may want to sue the parents of the other child for neglecting to vaccinate them.
Your child relied on the herd immunity brought on by being surrounded by other people who were able to be vaccinated.
This is not fascism, this is a response from distraught parents against those who made a decision which in the end killed their child.
I do not get the flu vaccine and I have NEVER had the flu. Yes, NEVER. I have vaccinated my children because they both have a history of asthma symptoms in the past, but they have NEVER had the flu. I think some people are just naturally immune. What are your thoughts about that?
Would you say, “I NEVER fasten my children’s seat belts and we have NEVER had an accident. I think some people are just better drivers.”
True? Yes.
Stupid? Abso-fucking-lutely.
Poor analogy. Perhaps if you realized there was a chance that the seatbelt could harm you you might think twice about buckling up each time.
There are many such injuries.
No prophylactic measure can be 100% effective or safe. It is always a question of whether the measure’s benefits exceed its costs.
You’re pretty lucky in that regard–maybe your immune system is stronger, or maybe you and your kids work in a significantly cleaner work environment than most–maybe you’re just more vigilant about hand washing than some people who get the flu. I don’t know, but congrats on making it to the child-rearing stage without catching it–I’m sure many seek your secrets.
No, you aren’t immune. Just lucky. And endangering your kids considering their asthma symptoms.
I think your logic is backwards. If YOU are afraid for your child, then the burden should be on YOU to keep your child home and isolate him/her from society. Not the other way around.
Public health doesn’t work that way.
Wasn’t there just a study done that showed that the whooping cough vaccine recipients became immune but carried pertussis in their throats with the potential to spread it to others? I had also heard on the news that parapertussis was being seen in vaccinated individuals and that the vaccine may have opened the door for that new infection. Maybe then those of us who have gotten the pertussis vaccine should be sued for spreading it. I’m fully vaccinated so should I be worried that I could be spreading pertussis to others and possibly get sued? According to your logic then I should be.
I don’t think non-vaccinated people magically carry around diseases. Recently vaccinated people walk around potentially shedding viruses. WE might be spreading it not the unvaccinated. Reading the hateful things people say about unvaccinated people makes me want to look into their arguments more because we have science on our side so then why does everyone for vaccines always have to be so hateful. Maybe if we were nicer people wouldn’t be so put off from hearing both sides. You catch more flies with honey…
I agree with you’re catch more flies with honey approach, but I think it is pretty hateful on both sides. It isn’t a conversation. It’s a tug of war. Could this be the article you’re referring to? It talks about the inefficacy of the new vaccine versus the old. http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/11/26/government-funded-study-reveals-vaccine-weakness/
your, my faux pas, but at least I wasn’t name calling.
Actually, I find it’s the anti-vaxxers who are much more strident and hateful towards people who do vaccinate. Many “articles” (no more than fear-mongering blogs) make these claims about how vaccinations don’t work, are detrimental to your health, and that the vaccinated are the ones making the unvaccinated sick, all without providing any credible evidence that their claims are true or even likely. Anti-vaxxers don’t consider the possibility that their child may have gotten sick because they refused to vaccinate at all or the possibility that even a vaccinated child can catch a milder form of some of these diseases from an unvaccinated child- which in a way is good, because if you’ve been vaccinated, chances are you will have received at least some benefit from the vaccine, therefore the vaccinated have at least some ability to fight off these life altering diseases as no vaccine or medication works 100% of the time in 100% of the people who receive it. People who are pro-vaccination generally provide valid links to scientific studies that the anti-vaxxers completely ignore or strike them as invalid because vaccines are produced and distributed by Big Pharma, and if that’s the case, they have to be bad because the pharmaceutical companies are out to kill us from childhood- that’s how evil they are. I’m not a cheerleader for the pharmaceutical industry at all- I think people should thoroughly research any medicine a doctor wants to prescribe for you or your child before taking it. On every insert of every prescription medicine I have ever taken, there is this same statement: “Your doctor has prescribed this medicine for you because s/he believes the benefit of the medicine outweighs the risks from potential side effects.” Potential side effects are listed from mild to severe and the insert tells me what to look for in a serious reaction from the medicine. Usually there is an emergency number listed in the patient information packet that comes with your prescription, not the doctor’s office or 911 (which you should call anyway if you believe you or a family member is having a serious allergic or other reaction) so you can report these side effects and be counselled on what to do should they occur. I don’t know about anyone else, but at points in my life I’ve had to take prescription medicine, I think most people do. Out of all of those times I was prescribed a medication only once did I have a mild negative reaction to a prescription (or OTC) medicine. When I bring my child to be vaccinated, I get more information sheets about the vaccination than a person can read while in the doctor’s office (but I do), and we are always sent home with a sheet with side effects to look for and also a direct number you can call to report side effects you may notice in your child after the vaccination, as well as a number for the very small amount of people who are severely harmed by a vaccine- The National Vaccine Injury Compensation program. I don’t think we would be given all this information if there were a conspiracy to harm through vaccination. My 10 year old son has received his vaccinations on the recommended schedule and has never had more of a reaction than mild soreness at the injection site. No fever, no autism, no injury at all. My son is healthy, active, does well in school. He goes to the doctor once a year. If he is sick it is never more than a mild cold or stomach ache that generally doesn’t need to be treated with any medicine. A day or two of rest and he’s absolutely fine. I mentioned in another post about how we missed our flu shots last year and we were sicker than usual, which makes me feel like we were severely unlucky this year or our yearly flu shot does provide us some benefit. Please vaccinate yourself and your children. It is important for everyone.
You are so extremely dilusional
I’m so “ignorant and uneducated” yet here’s something for you from the Oxford Medical Journals. I hope you can understand them as well as my “ignorant” self. (This says children under 2 don’t develop antibodies in response to these vaccines before age 2.) Stupid is taking the risk of injecting foreign bodies into an infant to NO AFFECT!! All risk and no benefit. “Polysaccharide vaccines. Polysaccharide antigens are T cell independent and poorly immunogenic in young children and infants. T cell—independent antigens initiate B cell proliferation without the help of T cells. The antibody response elicited is protective in certain age groups, but it is not long-lasting. Children aged <2 years are unable to make IgG2 subclass antibody, the main response elicited by the polysaccharide vaccines; therefore, they do not respond to these vaccines. The quadrivalent meningococcal meningitis (A/C/Y/W-135) vaccine, Vi typhoid vaccine, and early versions of the Haemophilus influenzae B vaccines use polysaccharide vaccine technology [5]. Age limitations for these vaccines are therefore based on an ineffective response for persons under the licensed age, which is generally 2 years old."
You’re either misreading or selectively reading the article. It is true that polysaccharide only vaccines fail to generate a response in infants under 2 because they have a poorly developed immune system. This is why the polysaccharides are conjugated to proteins in such vaccines on the schedule for children less than 2, so that they do in fact generate an immune response.
Thank you! I am very glad to see all the information being provided here. For the record, I’m not completely against vaccinations nor do I believe they cause Autism. I am however concerned about legitimate vaccine injuries, toxins that are proven to have the potential to cause cancer and autoimmune disease, and the *effect* of injecting foreign DNA into one’s body. I simply want more information before blind acceptance. Are doctors not familiar with the process of critical thinking? That’s all it is. I do research risk vs benefit and in certain cases the risk is low for ‘catching’ whatever disease either with or without the vaccine (Hep B for a newborn-really?). Be a little honest with people here. HiB cases per year requiring hospitalization regardless of outcome *equal* vaccination *deaths* from the vaccine. I even examine how these things are passed and contracted to further assess risk factors. If my child goes without a vaccine, I have a treatment plan already printed in the filing cabinet written by an MD. Some of us take this very f***ing seriously and do not appreciate being told stupid things like “we’re killing people” or “being ignorant”. I know I know more than our pediatrician when I have to remind her that the meningitis vac only covers two of the three common strains in the US but 3 or 4 more we never see in the US. Makes no sense to me but, whatever. The last thing I am being is ignorant or irresponsible.
I think all parents take this issue “very f***ing seriously” whether they vaccinate or not. Parents who vaccinate also don’t appreciate others telling us we are stupid, ignorant sheeple who are killing our children in the long run and exposing them to autism when there has not been any scientific proof that there is a causal link at all between vaccinations and autism or any information I’ve read anywhere (credible or no) that vaccines administered in childhood can cause illness and early death (as in they won’t live as long as an unvaccinated person). I go by the numbers, and it seems to me more people have been helped than harmed since the introduction of vaccines. The simple fact that we see a much (much) lower incidence of the diseases we currently vaccinate against than we did before the introduction of vaccines. I grew up next door to a woman who survived polio as a child. She could not stand up straight, so she basically walked bent over at the waist, having to hold her head up to see (the equivalent of you or me walking with our heads completely bent backwards as if we were looking straight up at the sky) plus she has a limp to go with that. I saw with my own eyes how difficult my neighbour’s life was due to polio. Remembering that and also doing my own research while I was pregnant helped me to make an informed decision. It works both ways- neither party should be throwing insults around over this, though it is frustrating even talking to an anti-vaxxer as they are so committed to the eradication of vaccines you can’t have a rational discussion. If you ask them for hard facts they will tell you they already know all they need to. Well if you’re trying to convince me, that’s not going to work because I’ve obviously not seen this devastating evidence that you seem to have seen. Until I see credible scientific evidence that vaccines in general or a specific vaccine definitely causes harm to children or adults in significant numbers (not that every life isn’t precious, but sadly people die from reactions to medicines in g, I’ll keep vaccinating and will encourage others to vaccinate. The difference between someone like me, who is willing to change my mind given proper information, a typical anti-vaxxer *has* the information now but ignores it.
Trust me, you will NOT see hard evidence of vaccine damage via the big Pharma, Doctor’s or any of the rest of them. Most have SEEN it with their own kids, and others. Why does it take Scientific evidence for you to believe things? Most Scientists are atheists, why would I believe them? I believe what I see, hear, taste smell and touch, and I see the damage, I am told by others what has happened to their children( that’s the hearing part) and I taste and smell dirty rats concerning the government, big pharma, Medical Doctor’s and Scientists and the taste and smell make me puke. : – )
It’s bad enough putting up with all the misinformation being put across by anti-vaxxers here, but to have someone such as you disparage the hard working scientists who are out there, claiming you can’t trust them because they are atheists, I mean what the fucking fuck? Take your religious libertarian crackpot tea party ideology of good Christian folk against the evil Big Pharma and fuck off.
Actually, we can say that anyone is ‘hard working’……even restaurant/fast food cooks. Yet we choose ignorance rather than watching (and being grossed out by) those 20/20 specials that catch lazy or careless employees dropping our food on the floor. You don’t think the same thing goes on in labs that manufacture vaccines? Ignorance is truly bliss. Sure, maybe they are hard working, but they are still workers collecting a paycheck; mistakes can be made and buyer should beware.
Sure anyone can make mistakes. My problem with your comment was how you bring Atheism into it, like anyone who isn’t a God botherer is unreliable and immoral. Not to mention your inference that all scientists are atheists. What, there are no Christian scientists working in vaccine labs?
Well, that wasn’t my comment, but the way WP parses out discussions is terrible so its easy to get confused. Yes, all people make mistakes. Companies make mistakes. There is a risk driving a car, there is risk in receiving a vaccine. Each person determines whether the risk outweighs the benefit. You can’t make those decisions for people.
Thanks that is gracious of you. WP threads are clumsy.
Regarding what you have just said, there are examples such as road rules, where the decision of safe driving speed is made on peoples behalf. There is nothing inherently safer than 100kmh compared to 101kmh other than the slight statistical decrease in chance of an accident. But you could apply that all the way back to 20kmh and make it law that no one ever goes faster than 20kmh. But this is obviously absurd. So we choose a speed that allows some freedom of choice, but also sets limits (literally). This is for the common good. Herd Immunity is obtained by setting an adequate percentage of the population to be vaccinated (similar to the way the selected speed limit protects the largest practical group of people given the need to allow efficient speed of transport).
In Australia, you don’t have to vaccinate currently, but to obtain certain services, such as public schooling and childcare, you are sometimes required to have your children vaccinated unless you have a religious objection. Also in some industries your own vaccination is vital and necessary (such as nursing). I think that is an appropriate level of “speed limit” to apply to vaccinations.
In order for these paranoid conspiracy theories to make any sense you must first believe that it is possible to have a secret conspiracy that involves millions and millions of people over a 100 to 1,000 year time period.
I have no idea what to say to you if you believe that to be possible.
+1
BUT, they are conjugated to aluminum which is toxic. Right or wrong?
It’s not just a case of them having an aluminum salt as an adjuvant. With most substances, there’s a threshold below which a substance will not cause harm. Apple seeds contain cyanide, which is or was used in gas chambers for capital punishment in the US. Many of the nasty organic compounds (formaldehyde, etc) that are used by some to claim that one product or another is harmful are naturally present in organically-grown variants of foods you eat every day. Aluminium is no different. The question you should be asking isn’t whether there’s aluminium in it or not, but whether there’s enough there to be dangerous to you or whoever is being vaccinated. Yes, it’s present in vaccines. It’s also been shown that it’s at a low enough level that it won’t cause long term harm.
Joe aluminum toxicity is accumulative. Whereas one shot may have low levels that are considered ‘safe’ but no doctor has so much control that they *know* how much is building up in a person and what is ‘safe’ for them. Every rebuttal so far has been half-truths. Saying it’s a ‘safe level of aluminum’ is astoundingly assumptive and dangerous to the patients health. There is no biochemical process that uses aluminum so it just sits in your body. ” It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]”-http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview Variable factors; the amount of metal ingested, entry rate, tissue distribution, concentration achieved, and excretion rate. No one tests for these things!! Don’t sit here and tell me you *know* when each patient has individual sets of circumstances to exposure. Start telling these people WHOLE truths because that is the ONLY version of “INFORMED CONSENT” period!
If up to 75% of aluminum is retained in babies, I want you to calculate the aluminum levels for each and every shot at 75% retention rate and tell me if you come up with a ‘safe’ aluminum level and for arguments sake, let’s assume the subject is 5 years old and has had all recommended vaccinations including flu shots. I would also suggest that people look up the symptoms of aluminum toxicity because they are very wide ranging, interesting and not what I expected.
Aluminum also aggravates hyper stimulation in *Autism*. I know I just swore right? It’s in your own medical journals so don’t spaz until you look it up.
Last thing on this, Aluminum half life is 7 years to expel from the human brain. **It collects for 14 years before it’s ever dumped for the first time.** Just taking someone’s word for it is at least reckless and when it comes to my child, pretty insane. I don’t care who is right or who is wrong I just want THE TRUTH!
Mel-have you ever had a course in bioavaiolabilty/mathematics? It starts elimination the moment it enters the body. For a comprehensive review, see J Environ Monit. 2004 May;6(5):375-403. Epub 2004 Apr 23.
The biological behaviour and bioavailability of aluminium in man, with special reference to studies employing aluminium-26 as a tracer: review and study update.
Priest ND.
Yes, they look at injected aluminium, bioavailability (amount remaining 5 days post injection is) 16-32%, excretion could be modeled as a 3 phase exponential equation with half-lives of 1.4, 40, and 1712 days.
Water is toxic if you drink too much of it. Its all about dosage. The amount of aluminum salts delivered in a vaccine are miniscule. See Joe Seatter’s comment; he explains it quite well.
I didn’t see a place where I could comment on your question about aluminum toxicity levels, so I’m doing it here. The EPA has recommended a Secondary Maximum Contaminant Level (SMCL) of 0.05–0.2 milligrams per liter (mg/L) (source: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxfaqs/tf.asp?id=190&tid=34). To translate (in case you’re not familiar with the Metric system): 0.00001 teaspoon to 0.00004 teaspoon per 1.05668820497 quarts. To further break it down, about the size of the period at the end of this sentence. In all the vaccines a child gets in the first six months, there is about 0.04 milligrams in total. About half of the aluminum in the bloodstream is eliminated in less than 24 hours and more than three-quarters is eliminated within two weeks. The ability of the body to rapidly eliminate aluminum
accounts for its excellent record of safety.
Source: http://www.chop.edu/export/download/pdfs/articles/vaccine-education-center/aluminum.pdf
Hope that answers your questions.
Stupid is not knowing the difference between affect and effect.
Really? “As a verb, to affect means ‘to act upon or have an influence on’, as in “Sunless days affect my mood.” It can also mean ‘to make a show of; to put on a pretense of; to feign; to assume’ as “to affect ignorance.” To effect means ‘to bring about or create’ as in “to effect a change.” If you affect something, you do to it. If you effect something, you cause it to be. Advertising might affect the sales of widgets (by causing them to increase), or it can effect sales (bring them about) if, for example, there were no sales at all to begin with. As a noun, effect means ‘result, consequence, outcome’. An effect is that which is produced when you affect something: “The poem affected me deeply; it really had an effect on me.” Affect as a noun is a term from the field of psychotherapy meaning ‘the emotional complex associated with an idea or mental state’. Keep in mind that usually if you want a noun, the word you want is effect, but if you want a verb, the word you want is affect.” <—oh yeah, that was clear as crystal wasn't it? *eye roll*
You used it as a noun. What emotional complex associated with an idea or mental state was it referring to?
Tell me the difference between Rota-Shield and the current Rota-virus liquid in use and tell these dear people what happened to Rota-Shield.
“In 1999, a highly efficacious rotavirus vaccine licensed in the United States, RotaShield, was withdrawn from the market after 14 months because of its association with intussusception.”-via PubMed RotaShield became linked to an alarming condition called instussception, which is a “blockage or twisting of the intestines” that sometimes requires surgery and can be fatal. After 76 reported cases in less than a year, the CDC recommended postponing the vaccine, and it was recalled. Everyone here wants to claim that these are all “tested” and “safe”. I call bull $#*+!! This crap would never make it to the market to bbe RECALLED if that were the case. Remember Phen-Fen people? “Studied for long term effects”? Yeah, for 30 days, again, I call bull$#*+!
Thank you!
Brown University found that: Pharmaceutical giant Merck and Co., Inc. introduced a brand new vaccine aimed at Rotavirus which was approved in 2006. Initial clinical trials showed no relationship between the vaccine and an increased risk of intussusception, but after its release, the reports began coming in.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, 80 cases of intussusception after administration of RotaTeq have been reported, 4 more than the number that inspired the recall of RotaShield.
After the first 28 reported cases of intussusception following administration of RotaTeq, the FDA issued a statement asking parents to watch their children carefully for signs of intussusception and report any confirmed cases.
RotaTeq is still given today. My son just got his a week ago and has been fussy ever since. Just an observation, nothing implied one way or the other.
Hence why there is post-release surveillance. Those 80 cases are over how many doses administered? Per FDA:
In the U.S., post-licensure studies of RotaTeq safety have not reported a statistically significant increased risk of intussusception.14-17 A cohort study in the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) that included 309,844 first doses and 786,725 total doses of RotaTeq found standardized incidence ratios of 1.2 (95% CI: 0.03-6.8) and 1.2 (95% CI: 0.50-2.5) in the 1-7 and 1-30 days, respectively, after RotaTeq Dose 1 and an AR of 1 excess case of intussusception in about 1.8 million first-dose recipients. The authors noted, however, that a risk of less than 1 excess case per 65,287 (1.5 per 100,000) first dose recipients could not be ruled out, based on their 95% confidence interval.16 A study of Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) data similarly concluded that a small increase in risk could not be ruled out, and a concentration of cases was observed in the first 7 days after vaccination, especially after Dose 1.
Full report at http://mini-sentinel.org/assessments/medical_events/details.aspx?ID=190
The only other approved vaccine Rotarix was found in 2010 to have DNA of a pig virus present and was temporarily suspended by the FDA because at the time, all vaccines were supposed to be ‘sterile’. “Porcine circovirus 1 is not known to cause disease in humans or other animals.” SO the FDA approved it again even though the virus was found to be present in the initial clinical trial lots. Well tested you say?
Scott your argument is that the collateral damage is justified because the percentage is small. Tell that to the 80 kids and their parents. Maybe even glorify their “contribution to science”. I’m sure they will appreciate that.
No, I’m saying per CDC:
Before rotavirus vaccines were available, rotavirus was the most common cause of severe gastroenteritis in infants and young children in the United States and worldwide. Almost all children were infected by age 5 years. Before vaccine was introduced in the United States, rotavirus was responsible each year for about 3 million episodes of gastroenteritis, 410,000 physician visits, 205,000–272,000 emergency department visits, 55,000–70,000 hospitalizations, and between 20 and 60 deaths among children younger than age 5 years
In Mexico, it is responsible for a dramatic decrease in in infant deaths due to diarrhea http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc1100062, graph available free at http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/11/20/one-of-my-favorite-charts-on-the-power-of-vaccines/.
In the US:
Post-licensure vaccine effectiveness and impact:
Since the introduction of RotaTeq® in 2006, several field studies have been conducted to determine vaccine effectiveness (VE) in the United States. A case-control study in Texas of 3-dose RotaTeq®VE in children age-eligible to receive vaccination during the 2007-08 and 2008-09 rotavirus seasons showed a combined VE of 84% (CI=70%, 92%). VE was highest during the 2007-2008 season (90%, CI=72%, 96%), and, while slightly decreased, remained significant during the 2008-2009 season (78%, CI=47%, 91%).35 In a further case-control study of children aged 15 days-23 months enrolled at this Texas clinical setting during February-June 2008, even partial immunization with RotaTeq® provided protection against rotavirus disease, with a VE of 69% (CI=13%, 89%) for a single dose, 81% (CI=13%, 96%) for two doses, and 88% (CI=68%, 96%) for a full course of three doses.[15]
RotaTeq® vaccine effectiveness was evaluated in a multi-site study during the first three years following licensure by the New Vaccine Surveillance Network (NVSN), finding 3-dose efficacy against G1-G4 rotavirus hospitalizations and ED to be 94.5% (CI=91%, 97%), with estimated effectiveness of 91% (CI=73%, 97%) using controls with non-rotavirus acute gastroenteritis and 86% (CI=70%, 94%) using acute respiratory infection controls. Vaccine effectiveness estimates were comparable between the first and second years of life, and these estimates were similar across observed rotavirus strains.[42]
Similar estimates of VE have been observed using different methodologies and in other geographic areas of the country. A case-control study of children aged 8 weeks to 3 years was conducted in Connecticut during January 2006-August 2009. The adjusted VE for a complete 3-dose course of RotaTeq® was 96% (CI=29%, 100%) when calculated using hospitalized controls and 99% (CI=78%, 100%) using community controls. Incomplete vaccination was also found to be highly effective at preventing hospitalization due to rotavirus gastroenteritis, with a VE of 93% (CI=41%, 99%) when calculated using hospitalized controls and 94% (CI=23%, 100%) when using community controls.[43]
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt13-rotavirus.html
That is just *one* form of *one* vaccine in *one* years time. Thousands of kids are damaged by vaccines every year. No one can deny that. You can minimize it all you want but that won’t change the outcome.
No Mel-I’m saying that as with all approved vaccines, the benefits far outweigh the risks. Also, errors in manufacturing do sometimes occur-hear about a Chevy Cobalt ignition switch problem of late? That was deliberate. I hope you’re staying off the roads to prevent being hit by one of those cars
Unfortunately, it’s going to be nearly impossible for that first parent to prove in court that their kid caught the infection specifically from the un-vaccinated kid. There’s usually enough of a delay between exposure and symptoms that the kid could have been exposed to hundreds of other people in school or various public places in that time.
I’d love to see someone try it, all the same.
VACCINES suck, this article is manipulative. The kid in the picture looks sad
Kid? That’s Dr. Pilkington-Smythe, the world’s leading expert in band-aid studies and chair of the International Committee for Repeated Reexamination of Frozen!
Colin, You Rock!!
That’s not her sad face that’s her ‘I’m concentrating on universal precautions’ face.
Yes, the article manipulates you to actually look at evidence. Gasp! Real data; the horror!
Wonderful, well researched article. As a physician, I find this issue as frustrating as any our field currently faces. It truly bothers me when an unvaccinated child is brought in with measles, whooping cough, rotavirus diarrhea, haemophilus meningitis, etc. and the parents who didnt trust us with protecting their child now beg us to help them. Why do you suddenly trust me now?
The answer is because all that political bickering, pseudoscience and “big pharm conspiracies” dont matter anymore when it becomes real and your child is ACTUALLY sick. Funny how that works. Parents arent turning to the holistic quacks, discredited research and poorly conceived antivaccine arguments when their child is in real imminent danger, they’re in the ER with everyone else pleading for their child’s life…a life they put in danger. It’s no different than the people who deny any other aspect of science, such as evolution, but then wish to reap the benefits that the study of that field has produced. The hypocrisy and willful ignorance, and the damage it can do to innocent children, is infuriating.
Our children deserve better than this. Our children deserve not to suffer and possibly incur disability or death because pushing medical and scientific ignorance onto others has become acceptable. Our ancestors, the ones who watched generation after generation be devastated by illnesses we can now prevent, would be appalled.
Amen!
Let’s not muddy the issue with evolution vs creation, doc. If you look hard enough you’ll find cases of patients who were permanently damaged by immunisation. And youll find modern cases of damage by no vaccinating. I do know, I’ve worked in an infectious diseases hospital. Remember – ALL medicine is risk vs benefit. Be informed, keep up with latest info from biomedical and natural and then choose. Certainly, don’t believe propaganda, and dont be an ostrich with head in sand.
“If you look hard enough…” How hard do I have to look? I’m not denying, I don’t think anyone is denying a very small portion of people who are vaccinated are severely harmed, some have died. That’s medicine, unfortunately. People die from complications due to disease, from medication side effects, medical treatments, accidents, infections and natural causes every single day, among other things.. Nothing in the world is completely safe. I think that is the problem with many people today, they want everything completely sanitary and completely safe. It’s just never gonna happen, not ever. You have to accept some risk if you want to experience reward. Many will say they wouldn’t risk their child, but in my opinion, it’s the braver parent who understands the risks but moves ahead anyway because they want their children to be healthy and not get very sick or die from a preventable disease, don’t want other people’s children to get sick either. Anti-Vaxxers don’t seem to care about anyone’s children but their own, don’t care that they may well be harming immunosuppressed people, don’t consider or care about the damage declining vaccinations may have on our herd immunity… It’s hard to be sympathetic to the cause
I understand your comment, but you speak as if decisions about children’s health must be rooted in a western medical standpoint. Some of us parents look to blend the best of both worlds, believing there is a time and place for each type of medicine in the life of a child. If it is an acute thing, that may be better addressed by antibiotics, then so be it – that’s what they’re there for, not for the rampant overuse that seems to be prevalent. And for the record, most of us who look to blend medical approaches don’t mistrust doctors, we mistrust the multi-billion dollar pharma who prove again and again that their profit margins are more important, their 6 week testing period for new drugs does not cover all we need to know to make an informed decision, and can end up killing people or severely hurting people. I am married to a “quack” practitioner who sees many, many people for whom western medicine did not work, who turn to him in desperation, and who find relief, support and cure with alternative approaches. Your disdain and seemingly unwillingness to see the benefits of something that was not made out of chemicals in a laboratory, or that looks at processes from other than a disease model is equally disturbing.
You are taking it personal that they don’t trust “you” for vaccinations, its not the doctor its the the vaccine its self. Yes my kids are vaccinated. However its hard to trust the clinical data when there might be BAD science involved.. who is paying for these studies, big pharm, so if a scientist does not print what they want, they will stop the study, hire a new scientist that will say what they want and continue. As a doctor I am sure that you are aware that some scientist can be bought, and have been bought. I support a parents right to parent there children. I know mine are protected, and I hope nothing happens to those who are not, never wish ill on a child.
What do you say to a mother who had a perfectly normal, calm, happy baby before vaccination but after there is high pitched screeming, seizures, and a complete turn around in cognitive ability?!?!?! Who has doctors denying that the shot had anything to do with it?!? What?!?!? Do you see our money system? Do you see how the government has treated native people? Do you see how our government is treating the environment!?!?!? Do you see how the medical community doesn’t even take nutrition into account before handing out these money making pills like they are candy?!?! Do you see the hundreds of thousands of nurses AND doctors that do not take vaccines them self?!?!?! And you expect me to just trust?!?!? I guess there is some common sense that just can’t be taught. Even when you’re a supposedly “well educated” doctor. Stop talking about people like thy are unreasonable questioning this!!!!!
Unbelievable.
There is a reason we vaccinate at a young age … the maternal antibodies start to decline at a very young age.
Do you have pets? Do you vaccinate them? I challenge you to spend some time at a veterinary hospital during the warmer parts of the year when parvovirus is around in force. Parvovirus (in idiots terms) attacks the dogs intestines and starts to eat away at them, they become lethargic, dehydrated and being to vomit blood, and pass bloody diarrhoea with visible pieces of intestine. Once the virus gets through the lining of the intestines and into the blood stream they become septicaemic. It is a horrid painful way to die and the mortality rate is huge. This virus is preventable by vaccine! Yes we inject a tiny bit of the live virus into their body, not enough for them to become ill, just enough so that their littleimmune systems can create some memory cells to fight off the virus each time they come in contact with it. This virus is HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS and I have nursed many sick animals with this and other diseases and then gone home to my own pets, who are vaccinated and have NEVER had s preventable disease.
You may say pets are different to children, emotionally most will agree. However, when it comes to being an anti vaxer … again I challenge you to not only have a look at some of the studies done on animal vaccines, but go and discuss your beliefs with a local veterinarian and ask if you can spend time and perform your own studies there! You will see specific studies and tests being performed and be able to come to your own conclusion … and I’d be happy to put money down that you’ll soon change your tune.
Unless of course you are actually one of these hear, see, speak no evil people who has a monetary stake in all this shit you spin and meanwhile could kill other peoples children.
People like You with Your big mouth and uneducated bull shit beliefs are as much a murderer as Ted Bundy. I hope for your sake you don’t find out the hard way by losing a grandchild.
Thank You, Lee!
I’d say I’m sorry for whatever disease/disorder their kid has. But it has nothing to do with the vaccination. As for your other conspiracy ramblings; I have some magic beans for you. PS: there aren’t “hundreds of thousands of nurses AND doctors that do not take vaccines them self”; that is 100%, grade-A bullsh!t.
Some reason at last!
Thank You, Jeff.
Thank is so well said, needs to be repeated, and deserves to be on the top of the response list.
You know, I posted a status on Facebook about this very subject…Let me go find it, because to try and paraphrase it would lessen the impact of the original wording….Ah. Here it is:
“Dear Antivax Crowd:
Even though I did all due diligence before deciding to vaccinate my kids, even though numerous independent studies have found *no* link between vaccines and autism, I will confess, I too considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they can. I still decided to vaccinate them. Why? Yes, it was out of a social and ethical responsibility to help maintain herd immunity. Yes, it was because I didn’t want some immuno-compromised person getting sick and possibly dying because my kid carried the illness because they weren’t vaccinated.
But above all, when it finally came down to it, this was what made up my mind in favor of vaccination: Even if vaccines did increase the chances of autism, I decided that I would rather have an autistic child than a child who died from a disease that could have been prevented with a vaccine.
Think about that before you rally behind a woman who tells everyone to stop vaccinating yet regularly injects her face with one of the most toxic proteins known to man.
But hey, if you’d rather take chances with polio, mumps, measles, rubella, etc…which could KILL your child rather than “risk autism” (which is NOT fatal) go ahead, be my guest. But your kid better not come around my kid with so much as a sniffle, even though my children are vaccinated. I am not willing to risk the life of my children simply because you’re willing to risk the life of yours.
I mean really. Autism varies in severity, and most children with an ASD are high-functioning, meaning it’s pretty darn hard to tell they have an ASD. By not vaccinating, you’re essentially saying “I’d rather risk having my child die than risk autism based on some quack who has been disproven many, many times”. Even if I play along and don’t try to change your miseducated notion that vaccines = autism…even if a study came out that said that vaccines increased autism chances greatly, I would still vaccinate. Every single time. In a heartbeat. I would rather have an autistic child than a dead child.
Just sayin’.”
Yup. Pretty much it in a nutshell. Even if a study came out and said that vaccines DO cause autism, my kids are getting vaccinated regardless.
Well said. This entire argument from the antivaccination crowd is remarkably offensive when carried to its logical conclusion. They have deemed autism a fate worse than death, and while I’m not autistic and cannot speak for them Im fairly certain my sister who does have mild autism (and a PhD in the life sciences) and advocates against the antivaccine crowd would disagree.
Autism is a terrible affliction. Other things are much, much worse.
I am a reformed anti-vaxer. Kind-of. I say “kind-of” because I refuse to give my children any vaccine that hasn’t been used for more than 2 decades. Every year is a new flu shot. Won’t get it. That HPV vaccine? Hell no. And I’m glad I didn’t since it killed, what, 20-30 young women? My only issue with vaccines in general is the age at which we administer them… babies. How do we know that the solution it’s in isn’t causing cancer to show up some 50 years down the line? How do we know that the vaccine solution doesn’t cause ADD or something? There was a link to autism at one point. Has that truly been disproven, or has the solution just been changed? How do we know the new solution isn’t going to be found to be the blame for infertility in 20 years? Too much about the medical industry relies on trial and error for me to feel comfortable trusting it. And they always come back with some excuse like “Well, technology has changed.” Or “we have new information now.” Or “there would have been no way of knowing that would happen.” They are taking educated guesses and then rolling the dice with our lives so they can make a quick buck.
Thats great, except for the fact that you dont use that form of reasoning in ANY other aspect of your life. Every single day you make educated guesses and “roll the dice” based on evidence in your daily life. For example, you roll the dice every time you fall asleep at night unafraid and unprepared for an advanced civilization of aliens kicking in your door and taking your children. Why? Plenty of people say they have been abducted by aliens, there are countless testimonies and videos of supposed alien spacecraft and numerous pseudoscientific studies claiming evidence for their existence. Many people actually believe civilation was started by aliens, and yet you lose no sleep over the prospect of them effecting your life in any way.
The reason, of course, is that your experience and real science gives us no reason to fear aliens at this time. You take the lack of an alien threat of faith despite just as much evidence for their existence and ability to harm us as there is for vaccines causing disease.
‘Scuse me, but aliens *are* coming. Not my problem if people choose to ignore facts and remain unprepared. (kidding…:-))
But that actually gets me rather irritated in general…Okay fine, some people don’t believe that aliens exist, because Earth is this speshul little snowflake of a planet, inhabited by a bunch of speshul little snowflakes, and no other snowflakes can exist in any of the other trillions of planets in the billions of solar systems in millions of galaxies because we are just that speshul, right? Right. But some people do believe (I tend to fall in the grey area. I believe that there is no way, when given the sheer number of other planets out there, that Earth is the only one that can support life. Maybe life as we know it…), and that’s okay too.
Most anti-vaxxers and pro-vaxxers can be metaphorically compared to people who don’t prepare for any kind of emergency at all, and people who at least prepare a little bit. The first group is willing to risk contracting a preventable disease that could be fatal in favor of what is a very treatable, liveable condition. And it’s a gamble they make in vain, because while they may believe that vaccination causes autism, the simple fact remains that if they do not vaccinate, there is still a possibility for their child to develop autism. Two huge “ifs”. Meanwhile, the people who vaccinate are almost completely guaranteed that their child will not die from the diseases they are inoculated against. Yes, there is still a chance that their child will develop autism, but I think that the millions of people who were vaccinated and DON’T have autism stand as proof that vaccinations do not cause, or even significantly elevate the risk of autism occurring.
When given the choice between two unknowns & the possibility of losing a child, and one near-guarantee (eliminating the possibility of losing a child) & an unknown (because even if anti-vaxxers *were* right, vaccines *aren’t* the only cause of autism, and that’s a FACT), I’ll take my chances on the unknown, just to have that near-guarantee that I won’t lose a child to chickenpox, whooping cough, etc.
You and I think very much alike, Jeff.
Personally I see anti-vaxxers as those who want to rely on themselves rather than the government to provide i.e. welfare and as for myself it is not the fear of autism that has stopped me from vaccinating, but rather the understanding that all of those toxins going directly into the blood stream just can’t be good and is probably partly the cause of the increase in cancer and so many other long term diseases.
After all, if you are not willing to drink the vaccine solution, why on earth would you inject it?
Well, I don’t drink it because it wouldn’t be effective that way-but I did drink the oral polio vaccine, and I’ve inhaled flue vaccines.
Christina: Edible vaccines? Where do I sign up?? I hate needles, and given the choice between ingesting one and having one injected, well, fill my cup!
It’s known that our digestive system is a powerhouse of a filtration system. I’ll drink a 4oz glass of wine, but I won’t inject it. Why? Because I’d probably die.
Just to be sure, I asked a friend of mine, who is an immunobiologist, why vaccines are not drinkable (My exact words: “Um, Jen? I hate needles, why the heck haven’t they made a drinkable vaccine??”), and here is her response:
“If a vaccine were to be ingested, the filters of our digestive system would filter out the dead viral cells (and other components of the vaccine), to the point that our immune system would just ignore it, as there wouldn’t be enough left (at current concentrations and dosage levels) to warrant the immune system creating antibodies against the disease being inoculated against. To make a digestible vaccine, the concentrations of the components would need to be at much higher levels. Here is where medical ethics actually work, because those higher concentrations (as opposed to the near harmless levels in the injected vaccines), while they would induce a higher profit margin, would carry a much higher risk of adverse effects, to the point that it outweighs the benefit of inoculating against the original disease.”
So there you go. One time where ethics outweigh the importance of a fat cat’s bank account. 🙂
As Scott pointed out, they did do the edible version of the polio vaccine which I had as a child (unfortunately), so that goes against the theory that it’s not possible. Furthermore, isn’t that the whole point? You are by-passing the body’s own immune system which is wrong. On top of that, with all the toxins in a vaccine, would you really WANT to drink it?
I do not believe there is anything else in the world that is generally ingested that can be safely injected. If anyone knows of such a thing, do let me know and I shall consider it.
Scott, with regard to your reference on polio, I shall look for the book in which I read that point and let you know.
I’d rather drink arsenic than inject it…at least if I drank it my body could at least attempt to lessen the impacts of the toxins.
I will ask her about the drinkable polio vaccine…you said ‘unfortunately’, I assume you had a bad reaction? If so, that would only strengthen her answer that a drinkable vaccine requires concentrations to the extent that the harm outweighs the good.
No, not at all. I say unfortunately merely because with all that I know now, I would rather have gone completely vaccine-free. I’m very glad to say that my immune system was strong enough (regardless of all the sweets I ate) to withstand the effects of the vaccine.
You are not bypassing your immune system, you are bypassing your GI tract-which has the function of breaking down proteins, carbohydrates, and fats. Now, if all bacteria would be obligated to enter the GI tract and go through the stomach (pH ~2.5-a very effective sterilant but not perfect c.f. Heliobacter pylori) you wouldn’t have so many things to worry about. That is one of the main functions of the stomach-to sterilize food. However-the flu comes in by the nose, HPV by genital tract, Clostridium tetani via breaks in the skin, Streptococcus likes to hang around your tonsils-rarely makes to the stomach. There are more routes into the body than the GI tract. Add in, we want the immune system to “see” the antigens in their native conformations so that it can react when they are present in an infection. Denature them in the stomach and there is “nothing to see here”-you’ve thwarted exactly you were trying to do.
The polio virus that we received on a sugar cube was an attenuated virus-still able to infect, not able to cause disease. That’s why it was given orally, its normal route of transmission is via the gut (I said the stomach was goo-not perfect), caused a transient, easily defeated infection, which then gave prolonged protection. We try not to do that anymore, but sometimes its the best we can do.
To my knowledge, there is no usually ingested substance that can be injected at the same concentration as ingestion.
A digestible vaccine would require much higher concentrations than are found in injected vaccines, due to the amazing filtering capacity of the digestive system. It would still wind up in contact with the immune system after passing through the digestive system, there’s no ‘bypassing’.
Let’s use the wine example. Because I like wine, lol.
Alcohol is a toxin, no one can deny that. If I drink a glass of wine, my digestive system, liver, and kidneys, unless overloaded or malfunctioning, will break down and filter most of the alcohol in that wine, resulting in little to no physical effect.
Were I to take that four ounce glass and inject it, my liver and digestive system would be bypassed, leaving my kidneys to filter out the alcohol. The four ounces that has little effect when ingested becomes potentially life threatening. Now, if I injected, say, only an ounce of wine, I might not lose my life, because the chances of my kidneys being overworked diminishes.
That same principle applies to all aspects of a vaccine. For ease of math (because I am currently not at home), let’s say an injected vaccine has 50 cc. Let’s say that 10 cc of that is dead viral matter (what provokes the immune system into forming antibodies), and the other 40 is other ingredients. Injection provokes the necessary response from the immune system to make antibodies, and in most cases, the rest is processed by the kidneys with little to no side effects.
A digestible vaccine would require more of those ingredients to ensure that enough dead viral matter reaches the immune system to provide the desired response of antibodies. It would also require a higher amount of those other ingredients, and at those levels, the risk of adverse reaction increases greatly, because while our bodies are simply amazing with what they can do, sometimes it doesn’t all get filtered out.
When I get home, I will do some more research to provide accurate numbers and math. The example above is simply to shed understanding on the principle and theory, not the actual real world application.
I am enjoying debating with you, Christina. Unlike so many others, you are able to keep it respectful and do not stoop to just saying “Well that’s dumb and you’re dumb.”
This is truly enjoyable to me…thank you! 🙂
I have to thank you too Merry Wench for exactly the same reason!
I’m afraid you’ve rather lost me with the mathematical points though I understand the principles behind your argument, but as far as I am aware (to be literal) it is impossible to inject someone with alcohol or even plain water as the blood bubbles, as I understand it. You can only inject saline solution which you are easily able to drink. That is my point, regardless of the amount being injected or ingested, you are by-passing the body’s natural mechanisms and forcing it to deal with an invading substance in a way it was not designed to do.
It’s probably a failure to efficiently communicate on my part (don’t judge me too harshly, lol, I’m a sahm of three under 9, one with ADHD and silent epilepsy, one with verbal delay, and I have ADHD myself, most days I consider myself lucky if I remember whether or not I wiped my own arse, lol!), so when I get home, I’ll sit down and try harder to convey what I’m trying to say (because a phone screen does not allow me to successfully keep track of what I’m trying to say, lol)!
You strike me as a very patient person who tries her best to understand all aspects of things before speaking on it (much like myself haha), and that is something can appreciate and, more importantly, respect.
Also, Christina, I’d like to point out two very important things:
1. Saline is not the only substance that is safe to inject into the bloodstream. Blood bubbles are usually caused by improper injection methods and a compromised IV line. Even then, a bubble in itself is not inherently dangerous either. I once panicked because I saw a small air bubble travelling down my IV line…and the doctor had to reassure me that a massive amount of air would be needed to cause an adverse effect. While there are substances that produce a bubbling reaction upon contact with the right liquids, these are the type of substances that routinely get injected into someone’s veins.
2. There are many substances used in medicine that are relatively harmless at the levels administered, but would become toxic in higher dosages. Botox is one that comes to mind. Despite its prevalence in the cosmetic application, Botox is also used to treat muscles affected by cerebral palsy, excessive sweating, cervical dystonia, and chronic migraine, to name just a few. Yet in elevated doses, it becomes toxic. Botulinum toxin (Botox) is also the cause of botulism.
I’m sure you are aware that medicine is not a practice of “Okay, this cancer medication works for 1,000 people but 5 people had an adverse reaction, therefore we can’t use this”, but more “Okay, this cancer medication works for 1,000 people but 5 had adverse reactions. What are the reactions they had? Does the severity of the reaction outweigh the successful remission rates?”
I’m severely allergic to poison ivy. When I was a child, they were developing a medication (injected), that would effectively cancel out the reaction to the ivy. Unfortunately, during trials, several out of the hundreds it was tested on had adverse reactions. The type and severity of these reactions were such that they outweighed negating the benefits of it. There were, and are, treatment methods that, while they might not prevent *all* reaction, they make it less severe. Given the choice between itching for several days while I’m on Prednisone, and risking the adverse reactions exhibited by several test subjects just so my skin won’t act like it has third degree burns? Itching, please.
Two good examples of situations where the benefits outweigh the risks are the cases of Crohn’s Disease and Celiac Disease. My brother has Crohn’s Disease, I have Celiac Disease, and after witnessing what my brother has gone through, I feel lucky to have Celiac Disease and not Crohn’s. All I have to do to not be in excruciating pain is avoid gluten completely. My poor brother…he can eat something one day and be fine. Yet a couple weeks later, he can eat the same thing and trigger a flareup. He is on Humira, an immuno-suppressant, that has been used with decent amounts of success to lessen the immune system’s response to triggers. Celiac Disease, like Crohn’s, is an autoimmune disease. However, there is only one cause of a reaction: gluten. I can’t eat a roll, because no matter any other circumstances, that roll will ALWAYS trigger my immune system to attack my intestine. Humira is not used as a treatment for Celiac Disease, because the risks that come with immune suppression far outweigh any benefit. It simply doesn’t make sense to suppress the immune system and risk illness just so I can have some bread. Yet the benefits of Humira allow my brother to eat with a lessened instance and severity of flareup outweigh the risk. I don’t need to eat things with gluten in them, there are plenty of other options. Gluten is not essential to my survival…but food is essential to the survival of my brother. He can’t just stop eating food.
I am not saying vaccines are 100% safe, and I don’t think most pro-vaxxers are saying that either. There *are* records of reactions to vaccines, however the rate of occurence when viewed beside the number of successful inoculations, is very small. The people who react, along with the immuno-compromised, do not get vaccinated any further, instead relying on herd immunity to protect them. But sometimes benefits must be weighed against risks in order to determine whether or not a treatment/procedure/medicine does more good than harm, or vice versa.
Hi, don’t mean to intrude on your conversation here. You were speaking of blood bubbles Christina. I have an illness for which I give myself injections. I do it in the thigh. I’ve gotten blood bubbles. Your bodies absorbs the air and gets rid of it. It’s also the same when you have to have laproscopic surgery. They blow air into your body cavity. It absorbs and comes out. Most injected vaccines are sub-cutaneous, intramuscular, not veinous, which is where a blood bubble would be a nasty, nasty problem. I’m not really clear on whether your concern is what’s in the vaccine or the delivery system. But the body absorbs different substances different ways, depending on what they are.
I had my gallbladder removed laproscopically and I can definitely confirm having air blown into my body…my abdominal area felt like rising dough for three days!!! Lol!
“You can only inject saline solution which you are easily able to drink. That is my point, regardless of the amount being injected or ingested, you are by-passing the body’s natural mechanisms and forcing it to deal with an invading substance in a way it was not designed to do.” Oh, I see now, It’s injections in general that you are not for. Things must be ingested or inhaled.
I can understand your concern and doubts, they echo many of the same thoughts I have had…however, as a cervical cancer survivor, I can offer this in rebuttal:
If I had been told that the cervical cancer was due to a vaccine I’d been given as a child, I would not have said “Well, risking an early death from a preventable disease sounds much better than this. Wish my mother had never vaccinated me”.
Even if it were to be my end, my life would not have been lived in vain, and if I were to face death, nothing would make me say that I should not have been vaccinated. The risk of a childhood death from preventable disease is never preferable to having had the joy of living the life I have been gifted with thus far. I have three children, friends, family, and a wonderful Mister. None of them would trade the years I have lived. And if I was presented with a vaccine that would prevent me dying from cancer but would cause my death from a common cold in 20 years, I would take it.
Thankfully, my cancer was caught early and completely removed/cured. But there is no question. Even in the face of a promised demise in a couple decades, I would take the guarantee of time (excepting accidental causes). Anything to continue living the amazing life I nearly succeeded at throwing away during a younger, darker period of my life. Even with the health scares and issues I have had. Life is too beautiful to not be lived because of fear.
That being said, I am not of the “all natural/alternative remedies are bad” club…to the contrary, I rely on many, but I know when it’s time to consult modern medicine. They go together so well, it’s a shame that neither side wants anything to do with the other.
msbrittania, I’m only going to respond to one specific point in your post. The one where you say that there once was a link to autism and ask whether that was truly disproved or whether the solution was changed. Here is what I can tell you. The person who indicated that there was a link between autism and the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine (MMR vaccine) was Dr. Andrew Wakefield. Dr. Wakefield wrote a paper based on a study done by him that was published in The Lancet, a prestigious British medical journal. His research studied a grand total of 12 children. Of the 9 of 12 children who were reported to have regressive autism, only one child was actually diagnosed with regressive autism and 3 of the other 8 children were not diagnosed with autism at all. Despite the paper claiming that all 12 children were “previously normal” 5 of the children had previously documented developmental concerns. In 9 cases actual test results were falsified with regard to colonic problems. Everything about this research and his accompanying paper have been discredited by the medical and scientific community as fraud and Dr. Wakefield has had his medical license revoked over it. So, the short answer is that there never was a link between autism and “vaccines” (it was only ever linked to one vaccine), the link between the MMR vaccine and autism was shown to be fraudulently made and even if you throw out the small sample size, the obvious fraud and the revocation of his medical license and take the actual results of the actual research at face value, it shows a 1 in 12, or 8% chance of someone who had been given the MMR vaccine being diagnosed with autism. But, not throwing out the truth seems to work best and if we don’t throw out the truth, we find no link in study, after study, after study between any vaccine and autism. There is not a link between autism and vaccinations. There never was a link between autism and vaccinations. Nothing in the vaccines was changed because of the Wakefield research because the research was fraudulent. I can’t stress this enough. It is as true as if I were to say the sun will rise tomorrow that vaccinating your children (even with the flu vaccine) will not cause autism. Your children who have been vaccinated may one day be diagnosed with autism, but it was not caused by the vaccine any more than my breaking my toe while wearing a green shirt can be attributed to the green shirt.
I sure hope you don’t have any daughters that end up getting cervical cancer then. Wouldn’t you feel like an a$$hole since >99.9% of all cervical cancers are caused by HPV.
The vaccine for HPV has not given satisfactory results and is administered at your own risk. The name HPV covers a variety of viruses which go by the same name, and most are found in the human body to begin with. The really dangerous one’s are unfortunately not quite stopped by the vaccination. You would be better off teaching your daughters and sons values, hygiene, taking care of self and the huge importance of practicing safe sex in all ways, as that is the usual method of transmission. Small, even microscopic lesions which happen during sex are more than enough for a lot of things to enter the body anyhow.
The vaccine provides no reliable results, but there have been serious health issues and side effects connected to that one. It is not the case where benefit beats risk, rather the other way around. And while some vaccines are truly beneficial, this one does not fall into that category. For it to have full effect it should be administered at quite a young age which is unsafe and brings additional risks with it, as the female body has not developed properly yet. The effects it has on fertility, pregnancies and the children born from mothers who received the vaccine are not yet fully studied. I would not give my daughter that vaccine, at least for now.
Kind regards!
I think this comment wins for my Fave!!! I am a ASD Parent, and ALL my kids are completely vaxed!! I agree with the sentiment of the Original post.. Everyone should do their own research!! Regardless of whether you’re anti or pro vax.. Do your research, Make a choice that is best for YOUR Own families!! The bigotry on both sides of this issue makes me bonkers!!
I am really not sure why anyone wants to vaccinate for anything. They have been programmed their entire lives that these things are wonderful and prevent disease, but it’s just a lie! FACT: polio was almost extinct when Salk brought in that vaccine and he saw the outbreak he caused and tried to retract it but the higher powers wouldn’t allow it. TRUTH: Vaccines are keeping these diseases alive and if they’d stop vaccinating, the diseases would disappear. If people can’t figure out that it’s all for profit only, then I sure can’t help you. I have been on both sides, researched for 18 years and I know the truth. Here’s another truth for you. I had Inflammatory Breast Cancer! I bet you all would have told me to seek Medical help immediately, no? And I didn’t. I beat this cancer naturally and with the direction from the Lord. No chemo, no radiation, no drugs. If you know anything at all about this cancer, you know it’s the most aggressive breast cancer out there, they usually cut off both breasts and I still have mine. : – ) I am not here to argue, just state facts and everyone in this world can make their own choice. If you choose to do this for your children, then go for it. But for those who choose to NOT vaccinate, it’s really none of your business anyway. And don’t tell me the unvaccinated kids are giving vaccinated ones disease, because it’s really just downright stupid to think that, because it’s the other way around. Why, if those vaccines really work, your children should be good to go, right? : – ) I don’t recall who it was, think it was someone named Kerrie, stated that all of us who choose to not vaccinate should go off to some island and die of our natural diseases? Really? I will tell you Kerrie, that if the ones who vaccinated were far, far away, there wouldn’t be these diseases here. I had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc. all naturally and they didn’t kill me like they tell parents today that their kids will die IF they don’t vaccinate. Can we say FEAR tactic here? lol The Bible says, you can’t love money and me. The Big Pharma is not of God! Drugs have only been around 100 years or so, and don’t you think God would have put them here over 2000 years ago, if he thought they were “good” for us. Stop listening to man and listen to your inner spirit, pray, whatever it takes. And yes, I have every right to mention the name of GOD and will do so at every opportunity! : – )
You should have disclosed you were a religite earlier in the thread. Then people would have known where you were coming from. However, thanks for telling us now. ‘Nuff said. Your confirmation bias is based on your god belief. Bye, bye.
Bye bye yourself Vernoica. God knows more than you and everyone in the world rolled together! LOL If you choose to be blind, he allows it, and besides, anyone with your nasty mouth does NOT know him. I would say, see you later, but don’t think I shall. LOL
forgot to mention, if you are going to use the world, as you say, religate, first learn how to spell it. 🙂
Anonymous, she wasn’t using religate. She was using religite. A euphemism for a religious person. I had to read almost halfway through your post before you invoked your “lord” in the curing of your sickness. Had you mentioned God at the beginning, I could have just skipped it as irrelevant and unreasonable and gone on to the next post, and I kind of think that’s the point Veronique was trying to make.
The rusing that’s going on in this thread is cracking me up. There’s no way, NO WAY, someone is being this stupid un-ironically. It’s hitting all the moron points way too predictably in an attempt piss off as many people as possible. Religious anecdotes, vague conspiracy theorizing, baseless conjecture, bogus accusations of word misuse, deliberately using an old emoticon… People like this certainly exist, but they would not be interested in annoying strangers with their ignorance. They would be falling asleep in front of Jeopardy, repeatedly dialing the wrong number in an attempt to get their social security benefits, and forwarding chain emails to their grandkids.
FACT: The eradication of polio in India is a direct effect of increased inoculation.
Look, I’ll be the first to say that the *business* side of Big Pharma is disgusting. I’ll be the first to treat a sore throat with tea I’ve brewed myself from slippery elm bark and licorice root. If I see a small white patch in my throat, you’re darn right I’ll try some raw honey first.
BUT…if my throat feels like it’s on fire and looks like I’ve got a partially swallowed cotton ball in the back of my throat, yes, I am going to the doctor to get some antibiotics.
Sure, I agree that the greed of the people who run the big pharmaceutical companies is not of god (Not even going to get into my religious beliefs), but I believe that the innovation, research, and dedication behind modern medicine IS. You say “don’t you think God would have put them here over 200 years ago if he thought they were ‘good’ for us?”
Since you mention your Good Book, let me direct you to Acts 1:7: “And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”
Then there’s 2 Peter 3:9…”The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness”
I hear so many say “All in God’s time”, “It is God’s plan, not ours”, “God has a plan for us beyond our comprehension”…yet the first rallying cry against modern medicine is “If it was good for us, if it was from God, it would have happened MILLENIA ago!” Apparently, the constant reminders of god doing things according to his plan (not ours), at his pace (not ours), when he wants to (not when we want him to) just goes right out the window when it doesn’t fit the rebellion du jour.
Modern medicine has its roots in ancient times, when healers were well versed in flora and fauna, knowing what benefits or adverse side effects different plants, roots, and even animal matter, held. As time passed, medical methods and techniques were developed that made better use of those natural elements and their medical applications. Healers were respected members of society.
And then a lovely little thing called the Dark Ages happened. During the period overlapping the Dark Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance, patriarchal religious leaders took up the mantle of religious righteousness and attributed the skill and relatively high successful treatment rates of healers as witchcraft and sorcery, claiming this was not of God, but of Satan. Healers were driven to stop their practice, or forfeit their lives. Mortality rates increased because if you had a fever, a ‘doctor’ would bleed you. Headache? Here, apply twenty leeches and call me in the morning. While some application of plants and such still remained and was used by schooled doctors, it was not with the knowledge and extent used by the village healers.
As time moved on, there was a shift back to the knowledge of the healers, however, it was now only ‘good’ coming from a schooled doctor. In the past 100-150 years, we have had access to applications and techniques that have furthered treatments of disease, injury, and other conditions, simply because we have methods and equipment that we did not have millenia ago. Massive advancements in such things, that BENEFIT the majority of society, are not of evil, but of good. It is the greedy self-interests of the people in power that are of evil. Medicine is not inherently evil. It’s already stated in the Bible that Satan brings suffering and misery to man to turn his eyes away from God and instead follow Satan (the best example of this being, I dunno, the ENTIRE book of Job?). Making things that relieve the suffering of man is not Satan’s M.O., according to the Bible.
So yes, please, talk about God all you want. That is your right as a human being, and I respect that. But don’t assume that everyone who isn’t exactly Christian will just blindly accept your statements and judgements as the word of your God. Some of us have Christian backgrounds, or maybe some of us just love to learn. Personally, I have three different versions of the Bible (KJV, ESV, and Standard German), and all three are well-read.
For a religion that is so quick to say that no one on Earth can speak for God, that no one on Earth can have a complete understanding of God’s plan, a lot of its followers sure are quick to make presumptive statements that infer they are privy to the plan of their omnipotent Almighty.
Jeremiah 29:11 (ESV): For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV): For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
According to the Bible, which is supposedly the infallible word of God, you do not have the right to assume you know of that which comes from him, and that which does not.
(To the author of the blog post, I am sorry for going off on this tangent.)
Where I say “Not going to go into my religious beliefs”, I meant that I am not going to get into a description of my own personal religious beliefs.
Where I quote “over 200 years ago”, I mean “over 2000 years ago”. Forgot a zero.
I agree with you entirely about religious people’s hypocrisy.
As for polio, I read somewhere that in fact polio was not eradicated so much as re-diagnosed as something else in order to give the appearance that the vaccine was working. Such is the hypocrisy and dishonesty of medical science.
*hypocrisy of the people running modern medicine*
I will have to look into that, thanks for giving me my research topic of the day lol! 🙂
So how many people have you seen going around in the manner of FDR. He was crippled by polio. Please don’t tell me its because hygiene is so much better now, he was living at the very top of society when he contracted it.
Nobody has renamed polio-google polio and Syria if you would like to see the term being used by the NY Times (1 day ago in my search) and the CDC-dated Dec 17 2013-first two hits. The reason you don’t hear about it in the States-or most first world countries, is because we vaccinate against it. When vaccination rates drop, you’ll hear about it again, just like measles.
Good luck with your 19th century ideology. There’s a reason there aren’t many Christian Scientists left.
Parent of the year over here. Please
Inflection is lost on a computer screen, so I’m going to take it as a compliment. 🙂
If it is indeed meant as such, thank you. I am not a perfect parent and I would never claim to be, and even though I always strive to be the best mom I can be, sometimes it’s very nice to have someone remind me that I am approaching it the right way.
If it was meant sarcastically, then please allow me to apologize for my incorrect interpretation.
Thank You themerrywench, your writing is excellent and straight to the point!
I love the way you speak about autism as if you know anything about it. I vaccinated both my children because I trusted the doctors and the pharma companies. After my son had his second MMR, he went from walking, talking, laughing, smiling, and growing normally according to the schedule to a screaming, nonverbal, hateful, mentally ill mess. This happened in two days. You tell me how you’d enjoy watching your child pace back and forth, wailing to himself. Tell me how you’d like to have your son forcibly committed to a mental ward when he threatens to kill you. Tell me how you answer your son when he asks you if he will ever be able to work a job or live independently. Tell me you’d not worry when you hand your children a handful of pills to control his violence and his obsessive behaviors. Even after this, I’m not anti-vaccine. We do need them, but we also need to find out why so many children (the number is now 1 in 67 with autism) are showing up with autism and other behavioral disorders. I know the MMR caused my son’s problems, yet no doctor will ever admit it except the psychiatrist who won’t vaccinate his own kids. Tell me why these kids need so many boosters when I had one vaccine of each as a child and I am still immune to them all today (verified by blood drawn titer).
First, and most importantly, I am so sorry that you have had to go through this.y heart genuinely hurts for the struggle you deal with.
Secondly, I kindly ask you to refrain from assuming that I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to autism, because I do. I raised my baby brother, who has autism. He has gone through many of the same issues as what you describe happening to your son, though not to the degree of severity as your son. I did not give birth to him, but I love him as if he were my ‘genuine’ son…and I can relate to the heartbreak, hopelessness, and even anger of what you must feel/have felt. I remember very similar feelings…there are no words for how genuinely my heart hurts for and empathizes with you.
Even through what my baby brother has gone through, I can say honestly (having lost a child myself), I would rather have him the way he is than for him to have possibly died from a preventable disease.
In a previous comment, I made it very clear that I am not saying every vaccine is 100% safe. That you yourself are still pro-vax is to be commended.
You are a strong woman to walk the path you walk, and you have my utmost respect for that. It is very clear from the tone of your comment that you are a dedicated, loving mama, and the world needs more mothers like you.
Also, I really wish that I could email you or message you privately, because there were a couple more things I wanted to say, but do not want out in the public just yet as I myself am still coming to terms with them. If you would like, you can email me at lifeunadulterated@gmail.com.
I promise, I’m not a mindless internet troll.
These types of papers are terrible, and should never be accepted as reputable evidence for any argument. This is because the author simply makes statements and slap references to them, as if the audience is supposed to decide how that particular piece of evidence contributes to their argument. If he/she were truly serious about providing legitimate evidence for their statements, they would need to argue how these references support their arguments and how some evidence would be more trustworthy than the others. They would likely need to know something how scientific evidence is weighed, how research studies are conducted, including the strengths and weaknesses various types of study design. They would also to need to explore multiple sources of evidence, comparing and contrasting studies and their respective conclusions (with links and pages numbers). Until they can do this, I simply cannot be convinced that reading this type of articles is a legitimate place to examine this important issue.
She provided links with in depth information about literally every single point she made. Nearly every single sentence is supported with cited sources. It is not the authors job to spoon feed you every single detail, all one can do is provide the evidence and hope people will rationally consider it. You can lead a person to water but you cannot force then to drink. If you refuse to put in the time to look into her sources and information, that is on you.
And for people who believe science is controlled by big corporations and is always biased, no amount of explanation of the process would matter.
And for the record, there is no real controversy in the scientific community. The “controversy” is contrived by antivaccine folks who scream at the top of their lungs in desperate attempts to be heard, but science itself is pretty much unified on the matter.
Those links are crap. One-sided information presented by a biased outlet. Anyone who has ever written an opinionated paper, or persuasive paper, knows there is a difference between presenting truth and presenting information to back up your argument. This author here, definitely has cited where he got his info. It’s just a bummer that the sources aren’t more unbiased.
You will claim bias in any piece of evidence that disagrees with your position. Its a classic cherry picking fallacy and one employed by all pseudoscientific theories. The combination of cherry picking and confirmation bias is impossible to overcome because the other party isnt interested in truth.
It’s one-sided information because the data are one-sided. Vaccines are safe, save lives, and prevent terrible diseases. The data do not lie. Also, I love how you call it a “biased outlet”; many of these are PubMed citations from leading journals in scientific and medical journals. You might as well just come out and say “I don’t trust scientists or doctors”. And if that’s the case we should send you off to live like they did in the middle ages. Live to the ripe old age of 30.
You can’t just provide evidence (slapping on references) and expect most of the general public to have any clue how to interpret it – I think this is one of the main reasons the anti-vaccine movement has garnered so much favor. Again, I am pro-vaccine, I agree with her statements, I am a scientist and agree that the evidence she uses is solid. BUT what I am saying is that the way she does it, makes it way too easy for anti-vaxxers to pop in with their pseudo-science and say ‘ha, so there, look at my link.’ Without really explaining why this is good evidence vs. the pseudo-science. She leaves herself way too open to criticism (however poor it might be) by the people who intend to ‘prove’ there is still some kind of controversy.
Thats well and good, but pandering to the lowest common denominator wont fix anything. It goes back to the old saying “Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and then beat your ass with their experience”.
The solution to scientific ignorance isnt to dumb down science so the ignorant can then create strawmen against the dumbed down concepts. If someone is unwilling to educate themselves, their lack of ability to intelligently discuss the issue allows us to dismiss them and save time better spent on those truly seeking the truth.
Since when is explaining the science in detail is ‘dumbing it down’?
First and foremost, I am not going to weigh in on the do it or don’t idea. I only decided to comment on this to talk directly to you Jeff. I think that you have to have some of the most informed well written comments I have seen on a thread. With that said, idea’s like what you posted above are the reason there is still as much ignorance as there is. The solution to scientific ignorance, IS to dumb it down. If we as the educated community would step off of our highly mounted degree holding horse and use whatever words were needed, be them big or small to explain the different aspects of things like science, law, medicine. Then perhaps, there would be less ignorance about them.
Ed, the problem is, how does one summarize a decade’s worth of education in 100-200 words, using no vernacular, no reference to concepts common to science in general (i.e. Normal distribution, statistical tests) without either totally losing the concept or the audience. After all it took you a decade to accumulate the knowledge, building complex concepts on top of simpler concepts. Please also include all the supporting data, so that people don’t cherry pick and think they understand, when they have barely begun to explore the concept
Ed, the problem is that decades worth of science cannot be accurately condensed into a form someone with no scientific background can easily understand. In order to explain it, and have it be free from the rebuke of someone looking for reasons to rebuke it, requires at least a crash course in microbiology, immunology and cellular biology. I mean, many of these people think aluminum is completely without purpose failing to recognize the basics of adjuvants and graded immune response.
You can explain it as best you can, but speaking from experience at some point they just have to take your word for it just as I eventually just have to take my car mechanic at his word because my knowledge of cars is minimal. Trusting ones physician is a huge part of medicine, and if someone is looking for a reason to hate vaccines I cannot explain it to them thoroughly enough in a single visit or set of visits to change their mind. At some point they have to honestly educate themselves, which means not using google but searching journals and opening textbooks.
I agree with you 100%. This article is about as biased as they come. Which is fine. But to present your information as “You are being lied to. Here! I’ll give you truth!” is reprehensible. Nothing presented here is fact, it is all opinion. And ZERO arguments whatsoever.
I say this not because I am on the side of anti-vaxxers – quite the opposite, but these types of articles make it way too easy for anti-vaxxers to pull out their pseudo-science and other ‘opinions’ and use them as a substitute for solid evidence.
The problem is that if anti-vaxxers knew how to properly read a real scientific article (or cared to) then there would be no need for an article like this. What you are asking for IS available in many forms throughout scientific journals and archives.
That’s what I was trying to say in my earlier comment
Shocking, but true that most anti-vaxxers are inarticulate, inbred, stupid, uneducated people who don’t bother to look at anything other than what the snake oil salesman said. And they’re too stupid to blindly accept what the western medicine culture wants to shove down their throats….so sad, really, they just don’t know any better…
why do people that are pro vax have such hate against anyone with other opinions.. so much hate, I rarely see any ant-vaxxers with such hate.
@beastieJC because their ignorance and lack of following a scientific method of research pisses us off. Also, their failure to provide any peer reviewed research supporting their wacky theories is annoying. They are basically saying “I don’t believe your 50 years of evidence based research because I have a sky fairy that tells me differently.” Science is true, whether you believe it or not. Then they spread fear, leading equally small minded people to believe them; pretty soon, you’re looking at a really dangerous situation where people aren’t vaccinating their kids and that affects ALL of us.
Most of us “antivaxers” are not anti-vaccination at all. I’m not. I won’t allow any more to be given to my children because I have an autistic son who became that way after his 2nd MMR. He still had all of his childhood vaccines but he has a damaged immune system, has to take medication for the rest of his life, and he will never live independently. If I had known the reaction he’d have to the MMR, I never would have vaccinated him and neither would you if you walked one day in my shoes watching my son go through the difficulties of being autistic.
So I guess you will be taking your case to court? You know that your court fees are paid even if you lose right? If you are so sure that it was the fault of the MMR vaccine then it is your duty to bring the issue to court. Every day I see ambulance chasers on TV advertising big pay-outs for anyone that has been hurt by a hip transplant, trans-vaginal mesh, Vioxx, etc. so why can’t you with you “perfectly valid claim” also get compensation? Maybe because your sons horrible ailment was not caused by a vaccine by instead cause in utero as many studies are now showing? Maybe you should looking to the true cause instead of trying to blame something that has been cleared of being a cause of autism.
I agree with you Helen, in regards to explaining science to all. As I am a part of the health sector myself, have physicians and pharmacists in my family and know many concerned parents, I will say this much. Most troubles could be avoided if parents would be informed and well prepared in the long run. Not having a base of sincerity and trust between the two makes it impossible for physicians to do their jobs, does take away from the role of the parent and causes a possible threat to children’s right to be healthy, so insults and patronizing are really uncalled for. And I will add that I am here first and foremost as a fellow parent.
From a parents perspective, it is not a car, it is a human being, someone’s child and of course they want to know the details and possibilities, but one of scientific background should know that the common interpretation falls in the black and white perspective. Subjective and objective clash when it comes to cases like these.
One unexplained ”mystery” is enough to turn some people completely in the other direction, especially when they are bombarded with information. And stating that it is ”their fault” and ”their stupidity” does not help at all, as society is based on a feeling of a collective and every individual rubbs off on another.
We also tell people not to drive drunk or text during driving, yet they and the victims of their actions are regularely at the ER after doing so. Which proves that education and demonstration are key, as well as knowing how to take proactive responsibility.
The definition of a proper vaccination schedule does vary from one pediatrician to another, one country to another as do opinions about certain products. The definition of risk, consequence and side effect is not interpreted the same by a non-scientist parent and a medical practicioner.
As far as this subject goes, I would also state that most parents are uninvolved in their children’s health in the long run and are either looking for a magic trick to make it all go away or are completely ignoring science and their children’s wellbeing. Fear is the common denominator, and the reaction is almost always minimal or completely overboard.
My children are vaccinated, but I was completely informed about everything and made a couple of adjustments in that matter as I knew what to expect. My children are also regularely checked as a preventative measure, both are healthy and active youngsters.
It is generaly benefit vs. possible consequence which come down to informed decisions and calculated risk.
Parents should know that it is a calculated risk which works just fine in most cases and is in their best interest, but it’s no magic pill.
I am completely pro-vax concerning the main part: Hib, tuberculosis, hepatitis, polio, measles…
But I myself see no benefit in it when it comes down to things like the seasonal flu, current HPV vaccination and in most cases, chickenpox. I still hold an opinion that more is not always better in the long run, and that benefit should in general be greater than the risk.
Kind regards
I agree 100%.
I am a reformed anti-vaxer. (Kind of.) However, this article is based on opinion. NOT fact. Yes, even the CDC is a biased entity. Anyone who has ever written a persuasive essay knows it’s not about presenting the truth- it’s about finding enough information to support a theory, or opinion. Which is exactly what this is. What lost me is this part: “They say that ‘natural’, ‘alternative’ remedies are better than science-based medicine.
They aren’t.” I’m sorry but to say that natural remedies aren’t better just makes me think that whomever penned this article is benefitting from the deep pockets of the pharmaceutical industry. There is a huge difference between natural remedies and pharmaceutical solutions. The biggest difference is that natural remedies almost always (when utilized correctly) focus on maintaining a healthy immune system so that you do not get ailments in the first place. For example: I take Echinacea daily and have not had so much as a cold since I started the regime 15 months ago. I use whole, fresh cloves for garlic for (TMI warning) yeast infections. I used to have to suffer for days using the creams you get OTC until I read somewhere about garlic cloves. The pain and itching go away almost immediately! Same for hemorrhoids…. using OTC medicines failed to the point where I actually ended up in the ER for them. The doctor said use Tucks. Yeah? NO FUCKING SHIT- what did you think I was using, Brill-o? So I started shoving a garlic clove up there at the first hint of inflammation and guess what? Pain, itching, swelling goes away immediately. So to say that natural remedies don’t work better? MMM… fuck you. The problem is there is no one out there making big bucks off of me and my home-grown tiny cloves of garlic so of course they’re going to try and convince people it’s “bad” for them. Do what you want, just remember that the medical industry is *STILL* BIG BUSINESS. They make money by treating people, not curing them. So do you think they are in the curing business? Or the getting-you-back-in-the-door-so-I-can-make-money-on-you business?? Hint: all businesses are in the get-back-in-the-door-so-I-can-make-money-on-you business.
To add to this, how did our ancestors get through life and not die without modern medicine? Antibiotics weren’t around until the mid-to late 20th century, and not everyone died from the diseases we’re “preventing”…my birth mother is proof! She had everything BUT polio! She’s had measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough…antibiotics were around…..and she’s still a living, breathing, functioning adult! It all depends on how well the parent(s) took/take care of their children! Sure, you send your kid to school with chickenpox (yes, I’ve seen a child with spots all over AT school, because the mother wouldn’t take time off from work, daddy didn’t care, and the babysitter didn’t want Sally and Jimmy to get sick…for which I do would not fault the sitter on, if the kids were infants or immuno-compromised) and other kids will most likely get it…unless they have a fabulously strong immune system. I have friends and classmates who were exposed repeatedly to chickenpox, and did NOT break out until their teenage years! and we all know…the older we are, the harder it is to recover…I had chickenpox…obviously NOT DEAD!!!! Next time you are at your child’s doctor’s office, ASK FOR THE PACKAGE INSERT, NOT THE PRINT-OFF THEY GIVE YOU! Read the package insert…it WILL tell you the side effects that have been linked, and I guarantee it will NOT match the handout!
Our ancestors DID die very young of disease. The average lifespan in America in 1900 (long before vaccines) was 47 years. In 1800, before vaccines OR any form of modern sanitation, it was 41. In 1930, just a mere 84 years ago, 1 in 3 children in America died before the age of five due to microbial infection. Now microbial infection isnt even in the top five killers among pediatric patients.
Look at the rates of disease in countries without proper vaccine programs and compare them to those that do. The difference is astonishing.
Also, most of the diseases you listed your mother as having were viral, not bacterial, thus antibiotics wouldnt help them. This just further illustrates how you have no business conveying a position on a topic your clearly do not understand. Google is not an adequete substitute for postgraduate and medical experience.
You probably won’t pay attention to Jeff’s post because it invalidates all your crazy “in the olden days” theory. Thoroughly.
“She’s had measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough…antibiotics were around…..and she’s still a living, breathing, functioning adult! It all depends on how well the parent(s) took/take care of their children!”
1) None of those diseases was ever claimed to be 100% fatal. Most people recover from them fine. But tens of thousands died per year from them. Hundreds of thousands had serious complications. The fact that your mother recovered from all is normal. So was dying from them, or getting brain damage, or becoming sterile.
2) They’re all viral illnesses. Antibiotics work on bacterial infections. Their effect on viral illnesses is… absolutely nothing.
You can’t use the exception to prove the rule. More people died in WWI from infection than bullets. My grandfather was cripled because of polio, and now it is almost unheard of for kids in developed nations to get polio.
You do realize that the active ingredient in Tucks is witch hazel? It is actually a plant, and is just as much a “natural remedy” as garlic.
So true! BTW, uva ursi is fantastic for UTIs. I tried antibiotics for about a week and they weren’t working, so I tried uva ursi and within two days (!) the symptoms subsided!
Uva ursi (bearberry) can help some UTI issues. The reason for this is because it contains arbutin, tannins, and hydroquinone. Tannins are known to lower the inflammation in mucus membranes Hydroquinone is known as a serious liver toxin. So, it is not the “greed of Big Pharm” that mad us turn away from using things like bearberry. It is the fact that some amazing scientists created sulfa drugs that have great benefits to humanity. It is not advised to use bearberry for longer than 48 hours because of the possibility of liver damage. There a ton of adverse reactions, OD info, etc. for bearberry…the reason people like me dislike the use of herbs for healing by the general public is because the general public is stupid and ill-informed. If someone goes to a doctor and a pharmacist, and they listen/read instructions they have a higher chance of not only getting better, but of living..
You do realise that most orthodox medications cause liver damage don’t you – mainly because of the isolation of various compounds? So does alcohol. Modern medications also do a lot of other damage as well. Herbs are used synergistically. Moreover, modern medications are derived from herbs. As for reading instructions, a lot of them miss out certain information due to lack of space (and misrepresentation).
Orthodox medicine is great for acute cases, but near useless for long term health care as it causes more damage than cure.
And you realize that there is a LD50 to ever drug (herbal, rx, recreational). Your post make little sense. Bearberry cannot be used long term, in fact it should not be used for longer than 48 hours. Why are modern meds bad for people when “natural remedies” aren’t? As you said, modern meds come from plants. Is it better for me to take opium latex than morphine for pain? I think the modern morphine is better. At least the modern, compounded form has a consistent amount of the drug. It also has fewer “extras.” Anything you put into you body, including water, can be overdosed on. The difference between you and me is that I believe that a compounded, consistent medicine will always be superior to an herb.
Wow. Just wow.
And you probably didn’t finish your antibiotic ‘scrip, either, right?
I did take the antibiotics for about a week as I wrote, but to no effect whatsoever. Antibiotics cause a lot of damage to the body as well.
LOL, I think all those vaccines and drugs you take have definitely affected your mind. The only word you seem to know here is the big nasty F word. Get life, I am pushing 60 and not had a vaccine since I was a child with NO voice, mind you, just like the animals who can’t tell you to stop jabbing them with the poisons. I have never had a flu shot or any other vaccine, I have a cleaning business still yet and can work a 20 year old under the table. Wow, it still amazes me so many people still have such itty bitty minds, they don’t even bother to check the facts on BOTH sides. NO Chiropractor ever vaccinates their kids, my own was the child of a Chiropractor, she’s had none, her children have none and they are all very healthy. No Natural Doctor does it either..funny, their kids are healthy and so are they, despite all the disease you vaccinated ones keep alive out there. I don’t know how old you are, but young enough to still be stupid about all of these things. I am not brainwashed, I used Godly wisdom to get me through this life, I don’t listen to Satan and his lies about vaccines being wonderful. You can find the ingredients of every drug and vaccines online, now, tell me why you put that crap into your body? LOL
The person you are trying to argue with is an obvious troll. Do not waste your time responding.
I’ve got an idea. Rub some garlic or coconut oil on your cancer. That should cure it.
squeeze some in your eyes…
I’m not even going to get into ALL of it, but I’m faaiiiirly certain the “natural remedies aren’t better” thing was directly speaking to vaccine versus treating vaccine-illnesses. *shrug*
http://gianelloni.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/why-all-the-measles-outbreaks/
In this blog you will find reputable and verifiable links, that will answer all your questions, with official studies, timelines, and statistics.
Great Link. Thanks so much, Ginger.
Someone already spammed this thread with that link. My earlier response:
This post relies on some particularly hoary misrepresentations. As I’m a lawyer, not a scientist, I’ll focus on the legal issues. (For the scientific issues, I’d suggest that readers not credit an author with a “bachelors in science and years of experience as a lab tech” over the Institute of Medicine, a charter of the National Academy for the Sciences. Its report analyzes all the extant scientific literature and concludes that in the balance, there is “no evidence of major safety concerns associated with adherence to the childhood immunization schedule.”
As for the legal issues, the piece you linked is woefully unreliable. It appears written to persuade people by giving them as little information as possible and spinning it as hard as possible. It complains, for example, that the NVICP pays out “$100M a year in damage,” but that is an absurdly small amount given that well over ten million vaccines are given each year. Car crashes run into the hundreds of billions of dollars each year.
In fact, in the court’s lifetime, less than four thousand people (last time I looked at the numbers) had filed a claim. That’s not just counting the people who won their claim, it’s everyone who filed a claim (which is quite easy to do, since the government pays for your lawyer). In any given year, on average well over ten million vaccines are given and less than a thousand people even file a claim for compensation for an injury. That’s a safe product.
She also complains that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe,” trying to make those words scary. But “unavoidably unsafe” is a legal term of art. Roughly, it refers to a product (like a drug) that cannot be designed in such a way as to have no side effects, but has benefits that outweigh those side effects. This comprehensive explanation used the term “ethical” product, which I like.
Finally, the piece you linked restates–for about the millionth time–that “the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act releases all manufacturers and administers of vaccines from all liability from any injury caused by a vaccine.” No. I have lost track of how many times I’ve corrected this error. (Not one anti-vaxer seems to have gone back and corrected themselves; I doubt the piece you linked will be the first.)
The Act releases vaccine makers from one of the three types of product liability suits. Parents can still sue if they think the vaccine was negligently manufactured or failed to warn them of possible side effects (such as autism, which I don’t think any vaccine warns against).
For parents who want to sue on the third type of product liability suit, defective design, they can do so in the vaccine court. They have huge advantages there over normal courts: the government pays for their lawyers even if they lose, and for most ailments they don’t even have to prove that the vaccine caused their injury, just that their injury occurred sometime after getting a vaccine.
The piece you linked is highly irresponsible. Interested readers should really stick with what the experts say.
Very interesting last bit. Could you provide a reference please?
Yes, I’m happy to. I’m not sure which bit you meant, so I went a bit overboard.
The bit about only some product liability claims being precluded comes from the Supreme Court decision in Brueswicz v. Wyeth. You can flip to page 19 on that link to read the ultimate conclusion of the case: “[W]e hold that the [NVICP] preempts all design-defect claims against vaccine manufacturers brought by plain-tiffs who seek compensation for injury or death caused by vaccine side effects.” Design defect is just one type of claim; this ruling doesn’t affect defective manufacturing or failure to warn cases.
(That’s baked into the underlying statute, as well, which is set out on the first couple of pages of that link. No vaccine maker is liable in civil actions “if the injury or death resulted from side-effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.” “Properly prepared” and “accompanied by proper directions and warnings” are phrases referring to those other kinds of lawsuits.)
Sorry I can’t be any simpler than that–not because I doubt your ability to understand the material, I just know it’s a pain in the ass to read a judicial opinion if you aren’t used to it. And very often, even then.
If instead you’re referring to the advantages parents have in the NVICP over normal court, you can read something I wrote or a piece that, frankly, I think is better. If you want something from outside the blogosphere, here is a vaccine attorney’s page explaining it from the plaintiff’s perspective.
The bit about what plaintiffs have to prove comes from the <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/chapter-6A/subchapter-XIX/part-2/subpart-a"statute, specifically the operation of 42 U.S.C. §§ 300aa-11(c)(1)(C) and 300aa-13(a)(1). I’ll warn you that unless you’re an attorney, a masochist, or both, that’s not fun reading. The Shot of Prevention piece I linked above explains it in plain language, as do some comments I left at the bottom of my earlier piece.
Ugh, sorry, bad HTML. The link to the statute is http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/chapter-6A/subchapter-XIX/part-2/subpart-a
The woman writing that blog openly states she believes she believes God has made it her mission to reveal to parents the dangers of modern medicine. Is this really the sort of fallacious belief that gets passed around in support of antivaccination these days?
If God wants us to stop vaccinating so much, perhaps he should inspire at least one single legitimate scientific study that reveals this.
This is ignoring the absolute absurdity of the majority of her arguments and citations. Anyone capable of believing what she apparently does could literally be convinced of anything, given her low level of “proof” required. For instance, she attempts to disprove herd immunity by using strawmen that have nothing to do with and reveal a lack of understanding of herd immunity.
Many people who post such garbage rely on the fact that most people won’t check out details for themselves. Because something has a citation, it MUST be true. The Internet wouldn’t possibly allow anyone to post something that’s not true, would it? (Sarcasm, of course). So people with an agenda (on either side) sit around, searching for something, ANYTHING, that can help make their point, even if all they end up with is… someone else’s BLOG ENTRY. Nevermind the fact that published medical journals, which are subject to peer review and are highly scrutinized, still say that the benefits greatly outweigh the risks of vaccination. They also clearly spell out who should NOT receive one, and in my field (I work in a physician office as well as in nursing homes, with hospital background), many a person who receives one either doesn’t know they fall into contraindication category, or they simply didn’t read the literature.
Those aren’t really facts Ginger. Just well written malarkey.
Here’s some info from the other side:
http://preventdisease.com/news/14/040314_Measles-Outbreak-Blamed-On-Unvaccinated-Despite-90-Percent-Infected-Being-Vaccinated.shtml?utm_source=040314&utm_campaign=040314&utm_medium=email
Very good article, but one item you forgot is the recent resurgence of epiglottitis. As an EMT and a father, this is just about the most terrifying condition I can imagine witnessing. Also, it should be noted that Andrew Wakefield lost his license to practice for performing unethical and unapproved experiments on children, not just for being a fraudulent hack.
Careful! You’re using facts to illustrate a point and displaying both education and intelligence.
Pro-vax nazis (because not all pro-vaxxers are ignorant assholes) don’t care much for that, seeing as it blows their whole ‘anti-vaxxers are stupid’ claims right out of the water.
Myth: People who don’t vaccinate are uneducated and have done all their ‘research’ online while lacking any real scientific knowledge.
Many people who don’t vaccinate are educated, understand the relevant science and can read academic, peer-reviewed studies. There are doctors and scientists who don’t vaccinate! It makes you feel better to think we’re dumb people who believe anything we read on the Internet. But we’re not.
Well said Junebug! Best post I’ve read out of all this arguing!
Don’t know if anyone has already pointed it out or not, but the site you posted has their facts wrong…they are purposefully misleading the reader. Here are the actual numbers of the 16…”Cases include 9 children and 7 adults. Among the children, 4 were aged <1 year and, therefore, too young to have been vaccinated; three were aged 13 months to 15 months and two were unvaccinated due to parental refusal. The 7 adults ranged in age from 22 years to 63 years. Among the adults, 5 thought that they had been vaccinated, but did not have their vaccination records for documentation, and 2 cases had previously received 2 doses of MMR vaccine." For you deniers, those children over 1 year did not have the full series. If you could have taken a titer of the adults before they were exposed I would guarantee that their numbers would be low (this may be caused by many things, autoimmune disorders, HIV, etc). But the #1 thing you deniers seem to forget is that vaccines are not only to prevent a disease, they make it so if you do get the disease you do not get it as severity as you would if you were not vaccinated. This is because your body already has the antibodies it needs to fight the disease.
Could you provide references for this please? I am interested.
Sorry, that was bad of me…I really should have posted my source.
Click to access Measles%20Alert%20March%207%202014%20%20final.pdf
It isnt a matter of being inherently “smart” or “stupid”. Many very smart people hold very stupid and illogical positions.
Also, just because one is educated does not necessarily mean they are worth listening to on a given topic. There are a small number of scientists who reject evolution for instance, and they are just as wrong as an uneduated person who rejects it.
To illustrate my point: If a world renowned astrophysicist comes out and says that the Earth is actually the center of the Milky Way galaxy, is that opinion worth listening to just because he is an astrophysicist? Of course not, because we know that isnt true. Unless he has hard data to dispute what is currently viewed as a universal fact, his thoughts should be discarded just as if they had come from anyone else. Likewise, one of my medical peers advocating antivaccination campaigns (and Ive only ever known one, who not surpsingly has since lost his license) should have his opinions rejected just as if he were a lay person.
The reason is because there has still yet to be a single recognized scientific paper that shows a direct link between vaccines and cognitive deficits and thousands that have said there is no evidence of a link. Im not trying to make myself feel better by saying youre wrong, Im appealing to the science to rebuke your ignorance on the matter. No MD or scientist who support antivaccination campaigns can point to any conclusive scientific study, only pseudoscience, hearsay and stat mining taken out of context. Meanwhile I can site countless studies recognized by major publishers which show no link. That is why Im inthe right and you arent. It isnt because Im necessarily smarter than you, its be ause I side with the science and you merely think you do and science is true whether you believe it or not.
And that makes me think of all the “scientific” studies that are found to be falsified….don’t put all your eggs in the science basket when mere humans are doing the experiments.
Jeff, I just completed three college biology classes. The professor was a former CDC and NIH researcher. He doesn’t vaccinate his kids. My son’s psychiatrist doesn’t vaccinate his kids after his own research. Both doctors told me they could never advocate their views publicly or they would lose their jobs.
I personally am not against vaccines, but I do know that my son is forever damaged after his MMR. If you saw the damage in your own child, it would change your mind, too.
Every single point you made in your comment was anecdotal.
You are aware that anecdotes are not at all persuasive and are useless when defending an argument, right?
If not, I would suggest you discontinue hard science studies for now, to give you more time to brush up on your reasoning skills.
Junebug, we don’t think you are uneducated; biased maybe, and closed-minded. Maybe a little selfish. Glad that everyone else’s children are vaccinated, so yours don’t get sick. Some pediatricians will not allow unvaccinated children (with parents who won’t have them vaccinated) in their office. Why? Because their whole office is at risk. There are babies who too young to be vaccinated who are put at risk by these unvaccinated children. And, Lily, I’m glad your mother is alive and well after having all those diseases. I, too, had them. I was never so sick in my life as when I had measles. My sister almost died from measles. And pregnant women should not be around anyone with measles or chicken pox, because of the risk and damage to the unborn fetus. Jeff, I agree with everything you say; very well put. Anonymous, I agree, you don’t write like a scientist or sound like one. All in all, this discussion has been a very entertaining read.
“There are babies who too young to be vaccinated” wtf are you talking about? they want to shoot up the baby with vaccines as soon as it comes out. have you looked at the cdc schedule lately? when I was growing up (born in 1981) there was only roughly 20 shots over the first 3 years on earth now its up past 40. The first one administered moments after birth.
Myth, that you think your education entitles you to make up your own facts.
When I was growing up in the time before the varicella vaccine (pre-1995) I for the chicken pox, just like most kids did. Unlike most kids, my bout with chicken pox was a little scarier. I developed acute cerebellar ataxia. You see the cerebellum is the center of your brain that helps regulate balance and mine was swollen and angry. I was constantly dizzy, throwing up and eventually I was unable to walk. I ended up in the hospital for 5 days and bought myself a lumbar puncture (where they stock a long needle into your sponge to sample fluid). Eventually the swelling went down, but it took me months to regain fine motor skills.
Today I’m perfectly healthy with no lasting issues, but it was a scary time for my parents when I was so sick. Why put your child through something like when there are vaccines that can prevent it?
Oops, sponge = spine
I’ve read the data from the CDC, AAP, NIH, and from several of the vaccine manufacturers like GSK and MERCK. After all of that, dictionary in hand of course, I also visited sites of Dr’s other than the previously mentioned Wakefield. His paper was retracted in two parts and only completely after his license was revoked. I visited Blaylock, Tenpenny, Mercola, & yes, even watched our dearest television Dr Oz’s episode where after very heated debate between the anecdotal evidence of parents and their doctors and the AAP, he concluded there are too many anecdotal coincidences to completely rule out vaccines as a cause of ASD’s. Here is my well researched belief:
Most Dr’s “against” vaccines tend to believe there is a genetic factor that hasn’t been explored yet. That these adjuvants are triggering a genetic predisposition for ASD’s and other diseases in our children. But I’ve yet to find any reference to studies in trying to map out these genes.
Thimerosal has NOT been removed from vaccines as stated. It has been reduced in some, but there are certain flu vaccines that still contain in it quantities higher than has tested safe. I can’t remember which off the top of my head and don’t have the manufacturer bookmark on my mobile. Sorry.
The rates of infection and severity listed on the CDC’s site show that the risk of contracting them is significantly less than you pediatrician would have you believe. No matter what you do, it’s a gamble either way. Only the parent of that child can choose which odds are more in their favor.
Herd immunity is only effective if the herd is getting immunity. Vaccination does NOT equate immunization. To prove immunization you need to have titer tests done. I firmly feel that if we simply instituted titer testing before vaccination, we could avoid over medicating our children. Only give what they have no immunity for and test to be sure it took effect. That data needs to be collected to show % vaccinated vs % showing positive titer immunity. Also, what’s the perecentage of adults in our herd? And how many of them follow the every 5 year vaccine regimen? Statistics say for herd immunity to be effective some 98% have to have immunity. I don’t think it’s possible to have that when more than half, the majority of the adult population, aren’t still getting their shots regularly.
We speak of immune deficient people needing to be protected by the herd. When we do mass vaccination with live cell suspensions, we’re increasing their risk of catching the exact thing they need to avoid because those cells shed from the vaccinated body for up to a few weeks after injection. That in itself is counterintuitive.
The “outbreaks”, if you can call 10 cases in a city of hundreds of thousands such, are usually from a traveling adult bringing in an infection from another country that infects a vaccinated child that did not derive immunity from their shot. I’ve seen many many articles by supposedly reputable publications showing just that.
Anti vaccers aren’t just talking about Autism or mercury and aluminum. Other ingredients such as formaldehyde are a concern since there is an FDA ruling banning any amount of formaldehyde in childrens toys because it MAY be ingested. This goes against that ruling by directly injecting any amount greater than none. Contaminated and recalled vaccines for things such as tiny glass shards being injected also play a huge part. We can find one cow and her calf in any feedlot across the nation but we can’t keep glass shards out of medications to be injected into our children??
I also have a religious objection to one of the tissue suspensions they grow these genetically altered diseases on for injection. That is my right and something I happened to discover reading ingredient lists and searching for definitions during my research.
The only thing this author and I agree about is that parents must do their own research but we have to accept when that creates different opinions in different parents. I’ve been reading for over a year to come to my decisions but because they may not agree with some people, I’m demonized and so is my child.
Logic dictates, if you’ve chosen to vaccinate your child and you believe that they have immunity from that, being exposed by a traveling adult who hasn’t had a shot since the last one required at age 14, or unvaccinated child who is a carrier, symptomatic or not, shouldn’t affect your vaccinated child because you believe they’re immune now. Schools have the right to send unvaccinated children home during an outbreak for THEIR safety, not because they’re dangerous to vaccinated children who should be immune. Reading your daycare or school policies and state laws can tell you that.
Things change. They’re learning that vaccines do not give life long immunity and are constantly updating the recommended intervals. This is why tetanus is now recommended on a 5 yr schedule rather than 10. We are all just human and we are all learning. All we can do is research for ourselves and make the best decision possible for ourselves. Demonizing either side does nothing but create unecessary hatred in an already hateful world.
This is the most logical comment on this discussion.
Wow!!! Bravo! Would you be willing to provide references for the stuff you’ve read? I am very interested.
Thank you. This is probably one of the most helpful, unbiased, and intelligent statements I’ve read on this issue.
I think your response is the best I’ve seen of any.
What are your thoughts or or against a delayed vaccine schedule?
Oh my goodness. Your blogged has been ripped off in the worst way. Some of your sentences were copied word for word. I teach my students that this is called ‘plagiarism’. http://gianelloni.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied-to/
The post on your blog is complete nonsense. Good luck with that.
If it were science than why has there been no study yet comparing vaccinated populace to unvaccinated. There are no doubleblind peer reviewed studies proving the effectiveness of vaccine. To me, that is quackery.
The reason that there has been no “double-blind study comparing vaccinated population to unvaccinated” is very simple. It would be extremely unethical to knowingly allow unvaccinated minors to be in an area where there was a high likelihood they would get infected. That is the same reason we feel you anti-vaxers are “quacks” is because you are unethical in your practices. If you want to see studies on vaccinated populations Vs. unvaccinated look ad 1st world countries Vs. 3rd world and their death rates due to preventable diseases. That should be enough proof of infants and child dying to titillate you without you asking for studies to cause more.
Look at the hygiene factor between those two worlds and also a recent vaccination project which left half an African village with damaged children.
Cite your source
Natural news covered it. See their own sources.
Natural News is a rag. Get better sources.
Let me ask you this…how many of you anti-vaxers have pets? Do you vaccinate your pets? Do you believe that “Big Pharm”, the vets, the vet techs, and the health department are out to get you and your animals? Do you believe that herd immunity will protect the unvaccinated animals from getting parvo and rabies? If you want empirical data that vaccines work and that they are made to prevent disease and not promote them all you have to do it look to your local humane society.
I do have pets and I have seen internet posts of other people who have pets and neither I nor they vaccinate their pets precisely because big pharma has found another source to flog their wares onto. The vets aren’t ‘out to get us’, they, like doctors, are simply brainwashed into believing vaccines are essential. There are a growing number of both doctors and vets that do not advocate vaccinations though. How do you explain that? If you ask for sources, you’ll have to wait awhile for me to go through my various books.
Yes please, as a veterinary technician that works in a very large humane society I would love to hear about the vet that denies that rabies vaccine is not necessary. Was Louis Pasture a part of your “Big Pharm” conspiracy also? Did he get a big pay off for what he did for humanity? Every day I work I see the evidence that vaccines work. Trust me when I say that vaccinating for parvovirus protects puppies, and vaccinating for bordetella protects dogs from some strains of “kennel cough”
I do NOT vaccinate my pets, or myself or anyone else living in this household and guess what, we are all fine. My dog gets fed a raw meat diet, the species appropriate diet, btw. I don’t have to produce evidence on that, it’s right in front of my eyes. Do any of you “sheeple” ever ask yourself why animals get same diseases as human beings? Vaccines are way over rated and over done, trust me, and they are killing dogs, just like they are killing people. You can only offer us anti vaxers no real proof, because you are either a pharma shill or reading the so called evidence from their sites, which are nothing but lies. I personally know a Medical Doctor who says that all Doctor’s know what these things are doing and all the other drugs, they just play dumb to make the money.
Dear Anonymous. You know nothing. A raw diet is not “species appropriate” for your dog. Your dog is so far gone from the wild ancestor that it came from that a raw diet can make your dog and your family extremely ill. Or do you not believe in salmonella either? Next you will tell me you feed your cat a vegetarian diet…Would you like to inform us “sheeple” what disease dogs get that humans get as well, or would you like me to tell you…for entertainment sake I think I will let you list them. As a professional that works in one of the top rated humane societies in the United States, let me tell you that vaccines save lives. I see it with every puppy that comes in with parvo, FYI humans can’t get canine parvo…just thought I would give you that one.
Seconded. Source please.
Isaac, now be truthful here, you a paid Pharma Shill or just dumbed down??
using “natural news” as a source is an immediate red flag for any thinking person.
Reblogged this on From Journo-baby to Journo-babe and commented:
Not mine, but deserves the signal boost because a) solid info contained and b) has more links supporting the position than I could ever dream of finding. Vaccinate your kids people, it’s in everyone’s best interests.
My mother says that she suspects some children she grew up with had autism and ADHD. That was in the 40s, so I highly doubt the MMR vaccines were to blame 😉
I have been vaccinated. So have my two sisters. I have autism, they don’t. The MMR vaccines can’t be to blame for my autism, either. They weren’t in use in Norway at the time I was vaccinated.
Anyway, I’m glad I have autism instead of having died as a kid because of a disease that could have been prevented by vaccination.
No, the children your Mom grew up with her just daydreaming, or hyper kids…that’s normal, why do people think something is wrong with it? Didn’t you ever daydream? lol Many things cause autism, not just vaccines, but I assure you it’s not normal to have it…even aluminum (think aluminum foil) is responsible for Alzheimer’s and many other things. Think out of the box, never assume any of these things happening to children are normal or something that “just” happens. And it’s not just the MMR responsible for autism dear, it’s vaccines period, due to the heavy metals and other horrible things in them. Do you all know, that today when you get vaccines, you are actually putting parts of aborted fetal tissue into your child’s body? Not to mention all the other crap.
No, you’re not putting aborted fetal tissue into your body. You’re using a vaccine that was developed using the WI-38 cell line, which came from an aborted fetus, and has now saved hundreds of thousands, and prevented a very large number of abortions and miscarriages. Or don’t you know about what happens when a pregnant woman contracts rubella?
http://www.babycenter.com/0_rubella-german-measles-during-pregnancy_9527.bc#articlesection7
My son became autistic after he had the MMR. He is not glad he is autistic because he suffers so much from the damage it’s done to his mind and body.
It’s simple, protect your children, get them vaccinated!!!
Blah blah blah… This was written with hate and negativity on the brain.. How unfortunate! It wasn’t educational or productive. Waste of time!
I agree with almost all your points here, except one that still needs more robust testing IMHO .
There is very little research about the effects of multiple challenges (and specific combinations of antigenic challenges) to immature immune system i.e combinations of vaccines given at the same time.
As the numbers of antigens in combination vaccines grows ever larger, some more robust and detailed studies are required to be sure that the combinations are given at an age where young childrens immature immune systems can cope. If that proves not to be the case then there is an arguement to space vaccines out a little and/or limit combinations and numbers of vaccines that are given together. I have never been able to find suitable/ adequate studies on this aspect of vaccination to satisfy myself that such a strategy is both safe and effective, nor rebut arguments effectively from the anti-vaccine lobby.
Poor practices by the pharma industry (in the past, & overseas predominantly) have helped to foster an anti-vacine culture. Trust needs to be re-established, and for that to happen, further trial work is needed based on protocols that are both unbiased and extensive, with full transparency in results publication. Then people need to be educated about the risks of individual diseases and the relative risks of vaccinations.
To be clear: I am pro vaccination. There is no question it saves lives, and in the case of flu, it is not just childrens lives we are talking about – its the lives of parents, grandparents and people with conditions that make individuals vulnerable to severe infections and death.
However, there are some questions that need better answers for parents if anti vaccination arguments are to be dispelled.