This is part II of our series on the movie “Vaxxed”, which Colin, my sister Julie, and I saw in Kansas City on June 11. In part I, Colin focused on some of the factual inaccuracies of the movie. He talked about how a person attending the movie would have walked away with an extremely distorted understanding of the CDC, a distortion deliberately encouraged by Mr. Wakefield and the makers of the documentary.
Here, I’m going to focus not so much on the documentary itself as on what happened after the documentary: what the “Vaxxed” team said during the Q&A session, how the audience responded, conversations that I had with protestors after the movie, and a conversation that Colin and I had with Mr. Wakefield.
As Colin mentioned, we were uncertain about what his reception was going to be after his interview with Mr. Wakefield on the ConspiraSea Cruise, and so Julie and I sat separately from him. (That turned out not to be an issue, and when we met Mr. Wakefield after the movie he seemed, if anything, amused to see Colin. Evidently two of the more excitable speakers on the ConspiraSea cruise, Leonard Horowitz and Sherri Kane, have been writing enthusiastically and imaginatively about how Colin is (among other things) a “spy and propagandist” and I got the distinct impression that they have been sending Mr. Wakefield (who they greatly admire) numerous screeds about Colin’s “deceptions.”)
The audience, about 150 people, was overwhelmingly anti-vaccine. They grew increasingly agitated throughout the movie. One woman in the front row repeatedly shouted things at the screen, including “DON’T GIVE YOUR KID A VACCINE, PERIOD!” (her outbursts continued through the Q&A, to the point where the theater manager had to warn her that he would ask her to leave if she continued).
My intention in coming to the movie and the Q&A was simply to watch, take notes, and hopefully get the chance to ask Mr. Wakefield which vaccines (if any) he thought were safe and effective, or if he thought that no vaccines were safe. I didn’t want to confront him or argue with him, and I told my sister to do the same. That plan lasted about six seconds into the Q&A when he asked “Has anyone in the audience not changed their minds on this issue after seeing our documentary?” Angry and frustrated, Julie sprang to her feet and proceeded to have rather contentious conversation with him. I was initially irritated—this was explicitly what we’d agreed not to do, and I knew I wouldn’t get the chance to ask my question now—but I couldn’t help but be proud of her for standing up and speaking her mind. The crowd was very hostile to us—shouting things like “Who’s funding you???” “She’s probably on drugs or possessed by the devil!” What they didn’t know is that Julie is a retired professional MMA fighter, totally at ease being punched in the face in front of thousands of people. She’s completely implacable in the face of hostility, and although scrupulously polite, she refused to back down. After making her views clear to Mr. Wakefield (to which he responded with what we think is a lie about how much money he made from his anti-MMR work in England), she sat down and we spent the rest of the session just listening (and receiving angry glares and a few pointed comments).
The Q&A showed the extent to which Mr. Wakefield will allow incredibly harmful and irresponsible medical advice to be shared by his colleagues without challenging it [1]. For example, when someone on the panel urged parents to go to chiropractors and naturopaths and to “stay away from pediatricians,” Mr. Wakefield sat in silence and did not disagree with this statement. When a panel member said that GMOs and vaccines damaged her child, but she can “recover” (not cure) him with supplements and correct eating, he did not disagree. When a person in the audience shouted “AIDS was created! So was cancer!” he did not disagree or challenge that statement. When a physician in the audience asked how she could support families and find them exemptions, he said “There are a lot of people here who will be coming to talk to you.” When a parent said “We see this connection (between autism and vaccines), why do they (physicians) not see it?” Mr. Wakefield responded “I think they do.” When a fellow panel member said that “The history (of vaccines) is that we’ve never needed them; sanitation, clean water are enough,” he didn’t disagree.
Strangely, when a parent explained that she didn’t want to give her child a vaccine but didn’t want to lose her pediatrician, and someone in the audience shouted “Forge the records, it’s easy to do!”, Mr. Wakefield did intervene, saying: “No, no, no, guys, you can’t just hide in the shadows anymore. OK? It’s only just dodging [inaudible] the system is fundamentally broken. Do not try and operate within the shadows of a system that is broken, the system has to be broken down completely and rebuilt.” Why did he balk at that but NOT “don’t send your kids to a pediatrician”?
This raises the question of how much of this stuff he actually believes. I can’t possibly believe that he agrees that AIDS was a manufactured disease, or some of the other crazy stuff that was said. However, I believe that he doesn’t want to alienate his audience by saying something they disagree with, and so he sits quietly no matter what is said (unless it’s blatantly illegal). During a conversation after the movie, I did get the chance to ask him if he considers any vaccine to be safe, and he refused to answer me.
I was struck by how angry the crowd was. I’ve never before encountered anything like it. To the scientific and medical community, I urge you to try to understand that these are parents who fervently believe with their entire beings that their children are the victims of a global, sinister conspiracy. This belief is all the more shocking because of its irrationality—they are wrong, but any attempt to reason with them simply drives them further into their beliefs. It was very sobering to watch Dan Kahan’s ideas of cultural cognition actually at work, to see people being driven deeper and deeper into their belief structure. And no wonder—a parent’s love for his or her child trumps all other considerations. They may be utterly, completely wrong about what the cause is, but their passions and fears need to be respected and taken seriously.
Yet at the same time I could see how the conversations of other parents, with other experiences might be effective. A parent with an autistic child whose symptoms showed up before vaccination, a parent of an immunocompromised child who cannot be vaccinated…these, too, are important and emotional stories, and they may resonate where the words of doctors and scientists don’t.
After the Q&A there was a long line in the lobby to see Mr. Wakefield and the other “Vaxxed” panel members. I wandered over to the protesters, who were all members of ASAN, the Autistic Self Advocacy Network. They were cheerful, polite, and enthusiastically having very important conversations with audience members and people from the “Vaxxed” team (some of whom were quite aggressive). I estimated that the majority of the protesters were teenagers or in their early- to mid-twenties. In talking with them, I learned that this was their very first protest. I asked several of them why they were here and got the following responses (directed at the producers of the movie):
“It’s (the movie) part of a larger cultural movement that denigrates autistic people and other people with disabilities.”
“You’ve got to (also) listen to our voices.”
“You’re using autism as a threat.”
I thought that showing up and being present to talk about their experiences—ones which many of us can’t relate to—was extremely effective and very brave. I hoped that the “Vaxxed” team members learned something from their interactions with the protestors, but unfortunately that didn’t prove to be the case. The day after the movie, the “Vaxxed” Facebook page put up a video featuring Mr. Wakefield talking to the protestors with the mocking title: “Protesters stumble over responses when questioned about why they were protesting the film.” Note that the permission of the protestors was not obtained by the social media team–in fact, they explicitly and repeatedly asked for the cameras to be turned off.
A link to the video can be found (for now at least) on Periscope here.
Sadly, the majority of comments on the “Vaxxed” Facebook page mocked the protestors or questioned their honesty, calling them “stupid”, “freaks”, “sell-outs”, “fools”, and “idiotic.” (I have obscured the names and images of people from whom I was not able to obtain permission to quote).
A few people pointed out that this was wrong.
The language employed by the “Vaxxed” social media team members and their online fans fit with the rhetoric I noticed in the movie, which was highly emotionally charged and fear-provoking. It included phrases like “lost everything” ,“didn’t ever really wake up”, “scary”, “damaged kid”. I have incredible sympathy for the parents onstage and in the crowd. They were dealing with challenges that I never will, and I can’t comprehend the stress that they’re under on a daily basis. But I have an autistic family member, and she isn’t a “damaged kid” or “scary”–she’s a bright, adorable toddler who loves dogs. The young people in the lobby weren’t “damaged” or “scary”—they were intelligent, thoughtful, passionate people. I admired them for coming out and sharing their perspectives.
I really do worry about the escalating, dehumanizing the rhetoric being used in this movie and in the anti-vaccine community. To Mr. Wakefield and his fans, please consider that no matter how you feel about the issue, these are people who you are denigrating with your hurtful language. You are damaging your own credibility by mocking them.
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[1] These quotes are from notes that I took during the Q&A and are as close as possible a transcription of what was said.
I admire your sister. And thank you for this more detailed description both of the q&A and the protesters.
I saw the protestors on periscope and also saw and heard this whole discussion on periscope and believe there was nothing done wrong on behalf of the panel.
I can tell you from the research that I have done over the last few months this movie is the tip of the iceburg of what is really wrong with the immunizations in general. No have read documents from well respected peditrician’s, researchers, neurosurgeon’s (one of my favourites is Russell Blaylock), homeopaths, teachers, nurses and doctors which have all had something to say about the epidemic we are facing now as parents. If you truly beleive the CDC doesn’t have anything to hide you really need to spend a lot more time reading and researching documentary’s which cover a lot of information to discredit the cdc, Andy Wakefield is just another person giving information about this horrifying injustice that is occurring right under our noses.
It’s time for people to really take the time to be open to all information regardless of where it takes you.
Your friends, family and loved ones depends on it 😊
I am sorry you feel that way. I see the mocking of the protesters and the aggressiveness displayed towards them as very troubling. Why do you think there was nothing wrong?
I would be curious what information you think casts any doubt on the scientific consensus that vaccines are safe and effective.
“I can tell you from the research that I have done over the last few months this movie is the tip of the iceburg of what is really wrong with the immunizations in general.”
Yes, please tell us what that research says! Please post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show the present American MMR vaccine that has been used since 1978 causes more issues than measles, mumps and rubella.
By qualified, I mean those who have studied in the relevant fields of autism, vaccines, immunology etc. Not neurosurgeons, homeopaths, non-medical school teachers, random nurses nor doctors without the specialized fields, journalists, econ professors, computer scientists, etc. By reputable I mean those doctors who have not lost their legal right to practice medicine (Wakefield, the Geiers), those who sell supplements, sell newsletters or are listed on the Encyclopedia of American Loons.
If the research was funded by the CDC or the AMA or any big hospital or university that receives money and grants and backing by the pharmaceutical companies, you are not going to find anything that says vaccines can injure your child now or in the future. …………………………………………. If you do not understand or think that MONEY will make people do things that are wrong, there is no point in doing any research. Doctors, and the AMA, and the CDC once told moms to be it was perfectly all right to take a drug called thermaldihide. Babies were born with no arms and no legs! There are billions of dollars to be made, as long as babies keep getting vaccines! Just read what is going into an infant’s body with a vaccine,…….You will know the answer then……
It’s a good thing that study funded by antivaxx group Safeminds found no link between vaccines and autism, then, isn’t it?
Oh, and you might want to read up on the history of thalidomide. It was never approved for use in the US due to the efforts of one of those government scientists you claim was bought and paid for.
“you are not going to find anything that says vaccines can injure your child now or in the future. …………………………………………. If you do not understand or think that MONEY will make people do things that are wrong,”
Are you paid by Really LONG Ellipses?
“Doctors, and the AMA, and the CDC once told moms to be it was perfectly all right to take a drug called thermaldihide.”
What in the bloody blue blazes is “thermaldihide”? Is it some kind of thermal protection armor? Massive inability to spell aside, let us address the massive history fallacy: Frances Kelsey, and why this Canadian* was awarded a very big medal from President Kennedy. You might want to do some fact checking, after you do a spellcheck.
My favorite (and only) ex-Canadian hubby was born on the same island!
I’ve been hearing this, that and the other thing is the “tip of the iceberg” for over a decade.
I’ve been hearing “the truth will be known” for over a decade.
The truth is known. Vaccines are safe and effective. And the “autism is a vaccine-epidemic” idea is false.
The thing about waiting for the “truth” is that you have to stop waiting when it comes.
Lisa, were you there? Because I /was/. I’m one of the protesters. In fact, if I’m in video or pictures anywhere, I’m the blonde chick with the straw fedora holding the colorful “my neurology isn’t a bogeyman (& still isn’t caused by vaccines)” sign. They’re only showing you what they /want/ to show you (I’ll get to that, that is a very common theme in anti vaccine propaganda). They also absolutely did not ask for permission to film any of us (Basically, Jennifer is right). They just came through and started causing a commotion. They were purposely getting up in our faces with the camera man, who is basically trained to be as obnoxious like a chaser crew paparazzi as possible. They do this fully /knowing/ that most of us are autistic and they are going to cause as many sensory issues as possible to throw us off and disorient us. I find it interesting too how they kept on badgering us for mountains of evidence (all of which was detailed in a two-pager that was passed around the group, but camera man always interrupted our answers regardless). but when you asked the camera man questions about factual information he just kinda “I don’t know”‘ed that crap in a slightly less embarrassing way than Mrs. Peacock from clue. He kept mentioning that the first case of autism was diagnosed the same year as the first vaccine. I believe I was the one who shouted “correlation doesn’t prove causation” while another one of my friends asked him what year that was and he wasn’t even able to answer us. Another common thread here was that they were attempting to invalidate us by saying “well you don’t know, you didn’t see the movie” (when there are people like me who went down the rabbit trail of looking up different studies and their crappy methods involved in them). I think the most amazing thing was when my tall friend (who I believe wasn’t there when Jennifer was but was there earlier) interjected and asked Andy wakefield himself if a person has to read the entirety of Mein Kampf in order to know if they disagree with Hitler’s ideas. That was a pretty golden moment. It stunned him pretty good. Then of course she got a great 30 second video grilling him on his lack of credentials. And until you are a real scientist, looking stuff up on the internet and only paying attention to whatever supports your unscientific view doesn’t count as “research” You internet searched what you wanted to hear, you didn’t research anything. The horrifying injustice is that people are still using this to dehumanize autistics, fear-monger our existence, and derail research dollars away from where it needs to go. I don’t believe in this fake coverup. I mentioned earlier that people only show you what they want you to see. You do also realize that there is such a thing as video editing and audio editing, right? Matt Carey dissected some of William Thompson’s audio recordings that andy wakefield used and Matt was able to find where they had been edited and spliced together in multiple places. It’s time to go learn what makes legitimate science, and I’m never going to be open to things done with horrible ethics (andy wakefield), crap methodology (andy wakefield), someone who refuses to speak out against quack therapies like mms and chelation which are harmful (andy wakefield), and I above all refuse to be open to “information” (distorted lies) that end up increasing stigma against autistic people. That fear-mongering and stigma leads to WORSE life outcomes, not better, like being discriminated against on the job for those of us who are able to work. Also, when people steal research dollars away for this multiple-time-disproven trash, as well as causation, it leads to less research dollars going towards figuring out how to best support autistic people. The latter (supporting autistic people) is directly tied to opportunities and services. You want to keep talking about autistic kids like they’re zombies, less than human? The worst thing EVAR? You know these kids (even nonspeaking ones) can hear you right there dehumanizing their very existence for something they can’t help (their neurology which you are refusing outright to accept) These autistic kids grow into autistic adults, provided their moms don’t filicide them along the way (it’s already been established that andy wakefield was also involved with the spourdalakis family). This fear-mongering actually does NOTHING to help these kids grow up being supported, and also does nothing to help them when they are adults. How do we know? We see it all the time. That’s why. My aunt never did this fear-mongering BS when my autistic ID (intellectually disabled) cousin grew up, and he’s a very happy man I’m sure because of that. It’s time you really take the time to understand scientific information, no matter how you feel about something (science trumps feelings). Everyone in the known existence, especially autistic people depend on you to do so. (I also note how you give zero mention as to how anti-vaccine agendas hurt autistic people, which is erasure. I won’t let you get away with erasure either).
Thank you. Jennifer, I wish you would make this comment a post in itself, if the speaker is willing. I think it’s powerful and a wonderful answer to the Vaxxed misleading and offensive treatment of the protesters. Thank you for speaking up and for being there.
Absolutely fine by me. Eventually I was going to put up a post detailing the protest itself and how that went, but I’m having some hangups right now on organizing all of the details of everything that happened. There’s just so much that happened that night.
Thank you OfSteepsandStims and the rest of ASAN-KC for going, and for bravely to standing up in protest.
Thank you so much.
Simple question, Lisa: what in your opinion is the single most credible and compelling epidemiological study or other piece of scientific evidence supporting the existence of a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders?
I find it so interesting that the anti-vaxxers believe everything they hear from their few “experts” that have no scientific basis, yet WE are the sheeple…
Actually, I think most intelligent people that love their children want to know exactly what will be injected into their child’s body when it is time for vaccines. So, they read the label of ingredients on the vaccine package. ………………They find it unsettleing when they know what vaccines contain. …………..Then they go to a good book store and start finding books written by pediatricians and immunologists that are against vaccines. ……………..Then they start making phone calls to the Department of Health in their county and ask about cases of polio, or pertussis, and find out there have been none or the child that did get pertussis was fully vaccinated for it.
……….Then they start finding out through researching and reading that these are benign childhood diseases that EVERYONE contracted in the 40’s and 50’s and a whole elementary school full of children got chicken pox and measles, etc., and NO ONE DIED!
……………And then you find out about the vaccine damaged children and the payouts parents have gotten for their vaccine damaged children. …………….Then, you also find out many anti-vax docs believe there is a connection between ALS, MS, Crohns’s Disease and other young adult disease and childhood vaccines, even cancer,……………and you start to see you decision to not vaccinate is a no brainer! …………………Oh,…..And you also find out that any adult that does not get booster shots evdery 7 to 10 years for all those diseases, is not vaccinated either!
So, they are not sheeple at all……..Sheeple do not do hours of reading and research!
I was born in 1955 and had all those childhood diseases. They are not benign.
But hey, don’t take my word for it, ask my youngest brother about those ‘benign’ measles. Make sure he has his hearing aids in first,
“…….Then they start finding out through researching and reading that these are benign childhood diseases that EVERYONE contracted in the 40’s and 50’s and a whole elementary school full of children got chicken pox and measles, etc., and NO ONE DIED!”
Really? Why should we believe you? From the CDC Pink Book Appendix E on disease rates of incidence and deaths:
Disease: Measles in the USA
Year__Cases____Deaths
1950__319,124__468
1951__530,118__683
1952__683,077__618
1953__449,146__462
1954__682,720__518
1955__555,156__345
1956__611,936__530
1957__486,799__389
1958__763,094__552
1959__406,162__385
You might want to rethink your statement, because at least several hundred schools had kids die from measles. Also from the same CDC Pink Book Appendix (which I collected a few years ago):
1950 stats that are available:
Disease____Cases__Deaths
Diphtheria__5796_____410
Tetanus______486_____336
Pertussis_120718____1118
Polio______33300____1904
Measles___319124_____468
Total_____479424____4236
I hope you take your children to see The BFG when it comes out this summer. Be sure to read the book to them, and explain why it is dedicated to the memory of Olivia. I am sure your kids would love to know that they can experience the same thing as her!
No one died? There was 115 thousand measles deaths last year alone…almost exclusively in the unvaccinated areas of the world but don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story
Actually, most intelligent people who read the vaccine inserts and who have an iota of knowledge of how chemistry works don’t find it any trouble at all to inject their kids with so many “chemikills”. You do understand the poison is in the dosage, biologic pathways, and that a compound is not equal to its components in chemical properties?
You do understand that some food has more of the chemicals a vaccine does, that your body, a babies’ body, produces more quantity and amount of these chemicals than any vaccine, than any thousand vaccines in a single day can hope to jab in a single dosage?
Since apparently my mother (and now myself) bothered to pay attention in school during biology and chemistry, she had absolutely no problem protecting her precious babies with vaccination.
The problem is ignorance. Frankly, my third-world-ass is disgusted with your movement of entitlement and privilege. I live in a fairly comfy country (Panama), and yet, in places where vaccines can’t get to because of access, despite actually having access to good healthcare (our health centres are amazing!), kids keep dying of so-called “harmless” childhood diseases. And now mw have an influenza type A H1N1 epidemic, thirteen deaths and counting, and at least 500 people hospitalised. Obviously the government freaked out and there are PSAs and free vaccinations for everyone. I live near one of the people who are dead, so I got my ass to a health centre and got vaccinated.
I cannot comprehend the degree of paranoia (I would really want to know how Big Pharma owns my country, considering half the stuff they’re able to pull in the US like price gouging is forbidden here, we only buy generics, and so on and so forth), of entitlement, of irresponsibility, of cruelty to make your kids go through these diseases, required to be anti-vaxxer. I hear all this sitting in my country where there is not a single one of you, where vaccinations are mandatory because people are still killed by these diseases, and find myself baffled. I wonder myself if the great United States of America has failed their students by leaving them completely unprepared to understand something as simple as basic biology and chemistry, because I find otherwise their gnorance very troubling—it says a lot about your society. Jesus, I graduated from a public school. In a third world country. For fuck’s sake.
To me. the problem with the anti-vaccinantion movement is their ignorance. Ignorance of how their own bodies work, ignorance of how substances work, ignorance of the consequences of these diseases, ignorance of the situation of the rest of the world. IGNORANCE.
I think that you’re absolutely correct that there’s a big undercurrent of privilege in this debate. I see it play out when people baldly assert that “hygiene” is the reason we don’t have diseases like polio around today. It’s…disturbing, to say the least.
As far as science education in the United States, it varies from state to state, but I don’t think that’s the entire problem here. Keep in mind that the percentage of Americans who actually believe in the anti-vaccine rhetoric is quite small–I think that someone in the thread on Colin’s post quoted a figure of 8%, but I haven’t verified that number yet. The vast, VAST majority of American parents vaccinate their children and think this debate is insane. It seems like there are more antivaxxers than there really are, because they are very active on social media and in the comments section of blogs and news articles (and because they have a couple of prominent celebrities who agree with them). But if you participate in the debate for long enough, you tend to see the same names crop up over and over again on antivax hashtags.
I think ignorance is a huge part of this, but I also think there’s an element of identity, too. People cling to their communities, and that influences how they view topics like this (and GMOs). (That’s what I mean when I was referencing the “cultural cognition” research). There are several different communities that seem to embrace anti-vaccine rhetoric: the “crunchy” liberal parenting community, and the religious/libertarian/anti-government community (and probably others as well). I saw representatives of both at the movie.
“I think that you’re absolutely correct that there’s a big undercurrent of privilege in this debate.” That’s a great statement right there. Not just in this debate, but at the showing in general. Because even though there are, like you said, people from different political backgrounds, one commonality that I saw with the vaxxed moviegoers when I was protesting, was that the vast majority of them looked pretty affluent, white, and suburban. And, where this theater is located, this makes sense to see that type of crowd (for those unfamiliar with the Kansas City area, Overland Park (which is on the Kansas side) is a pretty uppity suburb. A lot of people used ignorance of being too far removed from the stories of yesteryear when kids contracted so many diseases that are now preventable and all the stories of kids who got paralyzed, went deaf, and the ones who died, and so on. I know I never lived that first-hand, as I’m only 32, but I grew up being told stories from my parents generation about what life was like knowing kids who got polio and rubella and so on.
Considering that California have a population of close to 39 millions and that they failed to collect 366, 000 signatures required to force a referendum on Sb277, we can conclude that Antivaxers are a very small but vocal minorities.
“I live in a fairly comfy country (Panama), and yet, in places where vaccines can’t get to because of access, despite actually having access to good healthcare (our health centres are amazing!),…”
I lived there as a kid, and remember the people and the countryside as being wonderful. Even with this ten mile wide American colony cutting it in half, where there was institutionalized racism. I witnessed the privilege that you describe, and am ashamed that I was part of that culture.
Fortunately I was young enough to learn better. Plus, I would have been one of your worst Tiger Mom nightmares if I had not been give a good dose of humility by the medical issues of my oldest child (starting his second day of life).
I hope to visit it someday and see all the changes. I definitely do not want to do a cruise through the canal, I want to go back and see the places I remember on both the Atlantic and Pacific sides.
NIM, your evidence that any of the ingredients present in vaccine fornulations are toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination would be what, exactly?
I mean, you do actually have some–right?
It’s “thermaldihide”! Which is either thermal armor (hide) or very high temperature formaldehyde. We many never know. 😉
Jennifer,
William Thompson was exposed 2 years ago, and Vaxxed had been showing for months and had an audience of tens of thousands of people. They had severely attacked the integrity of the CDC and the 3 co-authors.
Yet the CDC and the 3 co-authors had not released any statement to agree or to deny the affair.
It is obvious to me that the cover-up is a truth, can’t you see that?
Would it make a difference to you if the CDC had made a statement in response?
William Thompson’s documents that are supposed to show a cover-up don’t. So there really isn’t evidence of one.
The CDC has released a statement that they are standing behind the 2004 paper: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism/cdc2004pediatrics.html
I don’t know why they haven’t responded to the other allegations. Maybe they think claims that so far mostly go among a small community of believers that already believe there’s a conspiracy aren’t worth countering. As you point out, Vaxxed only has an audience of a few ten thousands, and there is a lot of indication most of them are already among the believers. I wish they would say something.
But the burden of proof in this case is on those claiming a cover up, not on those they are attacking. And so far, the evidence doesn’t support a cover up. Quite the opposite.
“It is obvious to me that the cover-up is a truth, can’t you see that?”
Looks more like they are ignoring a non-story. Probably because Hooker’s paper was retracted due to him not declaring is conflict of interest and that the statistics were poorly done.
By the way, even with Hooker’s borked calculations he only found an increase in autism in young black males who were vaccinated after the suggested age. Which is very unusual because autism is diagnose less frequently in the African American population than it is is in others.
So how would this “revelation” have any bearing on the other large studies done all over the world that so no correlation because any MMR vaccine and autism, including a few by Dr. Brent Taylor who was at the Royal Free Hospital with Wakefield?
Derrick,
Actually, you’re wrong. The CDC did release a statement on the attacks on this paper. Here it is: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/cdc2004pediatrics.html
And Snopes has an article about Thompson where he’s quoted emphasizing that he believes vaccines are both safe and important.
Actually one of the authors has given interviews. I am aware of two. One was published, the other not. There just wasn’t enough of a story there for a real journalist to take the time to write a story.
Actually, William Thompson is enraged by the fact that he’s being used by charlatans like Wakefield. Check it out:
You know there are people who claim the Earth is flat and others who claim reptilian aliens in disguise are running the government. And you don’t see scientists and politicians wasting their time denying these claims.
Some claims are just so blindingly stupid or obviously wrong that it is pointless to waste time refuting them. The people that believe them are so delusional that nothing anyone says has any chance of changing their minds. The CDC and the co-authors have real issues to deal with, like trying to save people’s lives, so they are just a bit too busy to deal with fruitcakes.
You and your sister were really brave to venture into that madhouse and handle yourselves with such aplomb! I don’t think I could’ve remained so calm and collected when dealing with such angry, hateful, cruel, irrational, anti-scientific cultists, particularly the repugnant Wakefield himself. They act like such bullies and immature little kids, particularly when anyone dares invade their precious little echo chamber and contradict them. I wonder if they were spoilt children used to always getting their way, and grew up not knowing how to handle criticism and different opinions. They also clearly failed science and history.
I’ll be so upset if either of the two local indie theatres carry this piece of garbage. I’d honestly rather pay to see a big-screen showing of The Birth of a Nation. As difficult as it is to watch the second half, at least that film has deep historical, cultural, and artistic significance, unlike Vaxxed.
Thanks. We knew going in that it was going to be difficult, and I was really dreading going. But I thought it was too important not to show up. I’m really glad I did, because although it was one of the worst evenings I’ve had in a while, I did get to witness some pretty cool acts of bravery, both by my sister and by the young protestors. I don’t want to overstate the hostility of the environment, but I do appreciate how hard it is to stand up and speak your mind when you feel bullied and alone. Small acts of courage, but meaningful.
” “stupid”, “freaks”, “sell-outs”, “fools”, and “idiotic.””
Consider that the VAXXED team portrays themselves as advocates for people with disabilities.
And allow stigmatizing language about people with disabilities on their FB page.
Freaks.
Stupid (i.e. intellectually impaired)
Idiotic (from idiot, an old term for severe intellectual disability).
We see this even from parents of autistic kids who are Wakefield followers. Yes, these terms permeate the general public’s conversation, but we should know better. We should be the ones trying to stop stigmatizing language, not perpetuating it.
Who is the greater failure–the person who is intellectually disabled or the person with intelligence who fails to use it?
“For example, when someone on the panel urged parents to go to chiropractors and naturopaths and to “stay away from pediatricians,” Mr. Wakefield sat in silence and did not disagree with this statement.”
This is classic Wakefield. He promotes himself as the brave maverick, suffering all for the children, but he lacks the backbone to speak out against damaging ideas (even beyond those he publicly espouses).
He is a fixture at autism parent conventions where fake and harmful “treatments” are pitched.
When people claimed that drinking bleach solutions and twice daily bleach enemas could cure autism, did Wakefield speak out? No.
When people claimed that chemical castration could cure autism, did Wakefield speak out? No.
When people claimed that chelation (which may actually cause cognitive deficits when misapplied) could cure autism, did Wakefield speak out? No.
When a charlatan pitched a novel synthetic compound, untested for safety or efficacy, as an autism cure (while calling it a “supplement), did Wakefield speak out? No.
He lend his name to these conventions, gives his version of credibility to the proceedings, but sits back quietly so he can cowardly claim he doesn’t support these abusive practices.
He’s a coward. Plain and simple. Either give your support (and take the just criticism for supporting abusive practices on disabled children) or stand up and make your opposition known.
But he won’t. He’s gutless.
I am so glad to see that there were asan protestors there, and I’m glad you got the chance to speak with them.
The way Wakefield approached them, the way those filmers didn’t turn their cameras off, those comments on Facebook, they all disgust me.
A reason why those autistic people may have had trouble responding: they are autistic. Autism can make it harder to engage in serious conversations against opposition verbally, us autistic people need more time to think over what’s been said, to process and formulate our response. The cameras also would create more pressure, and the fact that this is a topic many autistic take personally charges it with more emotions that also can cloud our thought process, and we have to work through all of that.
Vaccines do not cause autism, that is my factual statement upheld by science. Even Autism $peaks can no longer officially hold that view (though many members still do) after their 10 year study trying to prove it did the opposite.
Let’s say they do cause autism though, just for a moment. Let’s pretend that anyone who gets vaccinated will likely be autistic. All those diseases vaccines prevent can kill, young children are especially vulnerable, which is why they get vaccinated.
So let’s put it this way: would you rather your child die or be in excruciating pain from diseases, or would you rather just let them be autistic? Remember, if you answer this question right here to me, you are answering an autistic person.
By saying vaccines cause autism, so you won’t vaccinate your kids, you are saying that potentially dying is a better fate than ending up autistic. You are saying that I’d be better off dead from disease than living my life as an autistic person.
When you say vaccines cause autism, when you don’t vaccinate, you risk your own child’s life, any the lives of others who cannot be vaccinated due to medical problems, because apparently my life is a fucking tragedy and you’d hate for your kids to be like me. Apparently your kids are better off dead than living an autistic life, because “people lIke me” must be suffering from our autism, instead of taking pride in who we are, instead of embracing our differences and trying to get acceptance instead of awareness.
I am a published author for a short story that won a local award. I aspire to be a renowned author of poetry and fiction. My poetry is generally about my life being autistic. My fiction is YA sci-fi and fantasy where I aim for diversity and plots that aren’t focused on romance. I am going to a community college, my GPA is 3.75 currently, I live with my grandmother. I want to major in communications, specifically the PR field. I may forget to eat sometimes, may not be able to shower every night, and may not be able to do everything I want to in a day, but that’d alright. If society were more accommodating to my needs, that’d be great, but I can get by. My special interests are my passion, my love, I can talk about them for days nonstop because they bring so much joy to my life. My depression and anxiety are caused by society’s rejection of me and a predisposition to them from my mother. Stimming is so much fun and it helps me so much, spinny rings and bracelets and flapping hands and singing and dancing and rocking back and forth on my bed.
My life is different, not less.
So when you say that you don’t want your kids to be autistic therefore you won’t vaccinate, remember me. Remember the life of every single autistic person out there that you are invalidating by your speech.
Remember that when you say that shit, you’re saying you think I’d be better off dead than where I am now.
Thank you, Egg, for saying it so much better than I ever could. And thank you for saying what I cannot, in a way that the anti-vaccine crowd cannot ignore. You are a very talented writer and I hope you continue to be recognized and rewarded for it.
Another note: When I say I /can/ get by without accommodations, that doesn’t mean I prefer it that way. I would love it if society could step up it’s game and realize hey, not everyone is white, able-bodied and neurotypical. With accommodations, I wouldn’t have to worry near as much about everything, my life would be easier.
And just because I can get by, does not mean others can as well as me. There are nonverbal autistic people, yes, I sometimes will become nonverbal if I’m too overstimulated (or when having serious conversations against opposing voices, I would’ve probably turned nonverbal if I’d been a protester, and you can bet none of those anti-vaxxers would’ve accommodated me). Those nonverbal people do still have a voice though. They can still learn to write, they can use alternate forms of communication, many can use sign language, many can get online and talk for themselves. Others will never be able to live alone due to executive dysfunction, or other problems, but that doesn’t mean their life is bad, just different.
The quality of my life is only decreased when people refuse to acknowledge me for who I am, when they attack me and people like me, for being autistic, taking the value of my voice from me and giving it to themselves, because they think they know what autistic people need better than I do.
Sorry for the mini-rant that’s kinda unrelated, but I felt I should specify all that, because otherwise it sounds a bit more like “oh nobody needs accommodations really” and I don’t mean that at all.
“There are nonverbal autistic people, yes, I sometimes will become nonverbal if I’m too overstimulated (or when having serious conversations against opposing voices, I would’ve probably turned nonverbal if I’d been a protester, and you can bet none of those anti-vaxxers would’ve accommodated me).”
I also appreciate your comments. My son was a non-verbal three year old, and he does speak now after over a decade of speech therapy. But, of course, it is not fluid and is sometimes difficult to understand.
He did get a community college associate’s degree, so he is literate. One huge obstacle in a job search was the “phone interview.” So that went no where, so we sought help. We are working with the state’s human services to get him supported employment, where the accommodation he mostly needs is people willing to be patient when he speaks, and to not get in his face.
Thank you so much for your eloquent comments. I really appreciate your participation in this discussion!
The angriest person in the theatre was Julie. Another woman told her we would all be here for her if she were to go through what so many others have. The comments you are saying Dr. Wakefield didn’t respond to were not made by the panel and they were not addressed to the panel. He responded when someone suggested doing something unethical. This is a very biased article, you obviously have an angenda and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Some of us attended the Q&A to ask honest questions and that time was taken up by your sister jumping up and going on a very long tirade.
Dear brave Anonymous, why should we believe you?
Julie definitely was angry–she was fed up with all the misinformation put out by the movie. But she jumped up when Mr. Wakefield asked her to, and her conversation was in response to him. She sat down when they had finished and didn’t try to disrupt the Q&A after they were done. It may seem like “a long tirade” to you, but I see it differently. And I would quibble with you that she was the “angriest” person in the theater. I thought the woman in the center front row (the one with the son who asked about vaccine ingredients) was much angrier, although she did happen to be in agreement with you and the movie, so perhaps that doesn’t count?
I think I made it clear in the piece that some of the comments were from the audience, some–like the suggestion not to take one’s children to a pediatrician–were from the panel. He didn’t respond to that one, nor to the suggestion (from the audience) that AIDS and cancer were man-made diseases. I’m glad that he did respond to the suggestion to falsify medical records, but I think that the non-response to the other outrageous comments from the panel and the audience was unethical as well.
I hope you got the chance to ask Mr. Wakefield your question during the Q&A, or during the meet and greet afterwards in the lobby. I thought he was very generous with his accessibility–I was afraid that I wouldn’t get the chance to ask my question (and I certainly didn’t want to take up time in the Q&A after Julie, so I didn’t), but he did take some time to talk with me.
Also, I’m not pretending to be a journalist. I’m a scientist, and so my perspective on this blog is in alignment with how I interpret the scientific evidence and the scientific consensus.
For the sake of argument, how ought I write this article to make it unbiased? Do you disagree that the treatment of the protestors in the comments section of the Vaxxed Facebook post was demeaning and cruel?
Should my article not be taken seriously because it happens to disagree with your perspective?
And what evidence would convince you to change your mind on this topic? I will take seriously anyone who can articulate that.
/really/? You come onto this blog with being anonymous, and talk about how “angry” someone was, which is a derailment called tone-policing btw, which I’m more than just sure that Julie’s “anger” was more than justifiable considering how anti-vaccine rhetoric dehumanizes autistic people while putting the general public in danger at the same time. Last I checked, wanting to have rights as a human isn’t a some kind of biased agenda.
it’s a sad truth that “stop killing autistic kids” is still a controversial thing to say.