My most recent post (“Dear parents, you are being lied to”) has sparked a very lively discussion. I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts on it, but I also want to follow up by asking for your reactions to one comment that I found particularly interesting. (I’ve edited it a bit for brevity)
As a pediatrician who’s spent extensive time working in the US and overseas and has seen children die from EVERY disease (except small pox) for which there is a vaccine I am appalled at the lack of education by the general public on the vaccine issue. This is my rant: I had two unvaccinated children in the US die from whooping cough, one from tetanus, and 2 from meningitis in the past few years. Perhaps this reflects our country’s generally poor understanding of math and science in general. A recent large study in the US showed that no matter how scientists try to educate US parents about disease and disease prevention, whether it is vaccines or hand washing, parents simply cannot follow the logic.
It’s devastating to see children die from preventable disease and despicable that it is happening here. I would like to know why those whose children end up in the PICU with tetanus or whooping cough now trust us to save the life of their child? Why do you run to a doctor when you are terrified your child has tetanus after refusing to vaccinate? Why am I now competent to save your child’s life when they have meningitis or epiglottis, but I wasn’t competent enough to keep them from getting sick? If there was no medical help for your unvaccinated child if they acquired a vaccine preventable illness would you think about vaccinating? If you’re not willing to run to your anti-vaccine friend, treat your child with advice from non-scientific sites on the internet, go to your chiropractor, or your holistic healer with your dying child perhaps you shouldn’t be taking their advice about vaccines. —Anonymous
To those of you who simply don’t trust the medical community’s use of vaccines, I am curious what you make of this physician’s point. Given your reservations about vaccines, do you trust an MD to treat yourself or your children for any medical issues at all? If so, why do you trust his/her education and experience on some points but not others?
I invite anyone, pro- or anti-vax, to share your thoughts on this. Please respect each other by following the commenting policies (and feel free to alert me if I miss a comment in violation of them).
Violent metaphors 
Just because it’s timely:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/02/health/indiana-mers/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
My email showed two responses touting Dr Suzanne Humphries. I don’t see them, so perhaps they were (understandably) deleted. In case the author comes back: Humphries is a liar and a quack. She gives a zillion random causes for polio (breastfeeding, sugar, arsenic, etc.), and no real experimental data behind them. Have you seen the chart of organic food sales vs autism diagnoses? They fit together perfectly, much better than Humphries’ charts.
They were not deleted, but held in moderation for having multiple links. I was asleep and didn’t see them, but I’ll approve them now so everyone can see what we’re talking about.
A WARNING: I HAVE A SUSPICION THIS LINK IS SPAM FROM THE FORMAT OF THE SITE, but Iadmit that I cannot read the language.
It isn’t spam.
Then I apologize.
Even if you don’t understand how science is done,
You must understand that you don’t get THIS sort of progress without endorsing, supporting, funding science education.
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/teenager-creates-new-hiv-test
Hi colleagues, its impressie post regarding tutoringand fully explained, keep
it up all the time.
Con el único propósito de ampliar la información agrego este enlace, que también habla de estadísticas:
Yeah, that’s the format they use – crying children, sharp needles… Fucking annoying PR for “natural remedies”, which have not been tested. Remember that digitalis is also natural. And botulotoxin too.
Lmao “natural remedies” which have not been tested. As if thousands of years worth of evolution has proven nothing. And lets not forget about the history of medicine and what was tirelessly used through trial and error to heal the sick in the past. Last five times I’ve been sick I’ve been prescribed antibiotics. Never took any of them and healed in a timely manner. I’m not saying vaccines are worthless by any means. But a flu shot? You bet your ass it’s worthless. Start eating healthier and you’ll be blessed with a healthier body and mind. Of course you have a ton of nutritional misinformation tellin people to limit their fat intake and increase their carb intake…hahahahahahahaha. Who the hell is anyone supposed to believe these days anyways. I rest my case.
“Last five times I’ve been sick I’ve been prescribed antibiotics. Never took any of them”
I’m just plain curious:
Why did you go to the doctor?
I make it a practice to get every vaccine available. If you study the History of Medicine you will realize that the reason our life expectancy has been raised is because of vaccines and not expensive intensive care in hospitals. At the turn of last century 1in 5 children died of diptheria, not to mention other infections. There is a Chinese saying that is sage advice:” The superior physician treats the disease before symtoms manifest; The inferior physician can only treat the diseases he failed to prevent”
Wow. You are a victim of first world privilege. If you lived in the third world and tried to just eat right you would be dead. Vaccines work regardless of privilege polio still exists because warlords tell their people that the polio vaccine will make them infertile. Yeah polio still fucking exists in 2014 just not where you see it. Please first world people please think about the harm before you comment.
Antibiotics and not a vaccine – they are antibiotics – two entirely different things which work in entirely different ways.
“You bet your ass it’s [a flu shot] worthless” – your opinion is not supported by any evidence as all evidence supports “a flu shot” being very helpful in avoiding getting the flu.
“Start eating healthier and you’ll be blessed with a healthier body…” yes, but that does not relate to vaccinations or antibiotics.
Que raro que ocurrió un error: ¿Otra mentira?
Muchas gracias por tomar mi comentario. Mi propósito es sólo por mejor información. No soy profesional de modo que carezco de autoridad para discutir al respecto.
Vaccination is a well proven racket, not a shred of evidence vaccines got rid of smallpox or polio, or reduced any deaths for any disease http://whale.to/vaccines.html
“It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated.”—-Glen Dettman A.M.M., BA, Ph.D., F.A.P.M.
Not only that vaccinators have suppressed the vitamin C cure for all infections that would destroy vaccination http://whale.to/a/vitamin_c_banners.html
“Many viral infectious diseases have been cured and can continue to be cured by the proper administration of Vitamin C. Yes, the vaccinations for these treatable infectious diseases are completely unnecessary when one has the access to proper treatment with vitamin C. And, yes, all the side effects of vaccinations…are also completely unnecessary since the vaccinations do not have to be given in the first place with the availability of properly dosed vitamin C.”—Dr Thomas Levy M.D., J.D. (Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins p30)
“Amazingly, vitamin C has actually already been documented in the medical literature to have readily and consistently cured both acute polio and acute hepatitis, two viral diseases still considered by modern medicine to be incurable.” – Thomas E. Levy, MD, JD
All three children had different doctors. The little girl under Klenner’s care was given 10,000 mg of vitamin C as a slow intravenous “push” with a 50 cc syringe every eight hours for the first 24 hours and then every 12 hours for two more doses. Following this she was given 1,000 mg of vitamin C every two hours by mouth. Klenner also notes that a 40,000-unit dose of antitoxin was injected into the little girl’s abdomen. The other two children received the antitoxin as well, but they did not receive any vitamin C. They both died but Klenner’s patient survived, later becoming a nurse. —Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins: Curing the Incurable by Thomas E. Levy, M.D., J.D.
“Acute viral hepatitis…is easily and completely curable with treated promptly with adequate doses of vitamin C …some evidence indicates that a high dose of vitamin C for a long enough period of time would probably resolve (chronic hepatitis) as well in many of the cases…….A significant benefit of properly dosed vitamin C would be the elimination of any need or reason to vaccinate people against hepatitis.”—Dr Thomas Levy M.D., J.D. (Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins pgs 60, 66)
John Scudamore,
I’m interested in this.
I’d like to know more about how you came to follow this particular train of thought. It’s true that I disagree with you, but I’m not going to try to convince you that I’m right. I just want to know more about the process you went through to arrive at that conclusion, since it is different than my own. I’m not looking for duelling quotes or “this study proves you wrong” back and forth, but my questions would be a little probing into your own mental journey. Would you be willing to answer some questions of mine, as long as I keep my tone respectful and curious, not accusatory or derogatory?
Have you received a reply? I find myself impressed with your proposal and it reflects my own response to the above post about Vit C
exactly.
this Jennifer Raff sounds like an individual with an agenda of pushing vaccination.
nothing more.
it says ” scientist ” under her name, but i would like a reference to her degree’s.
there’s also no published papers on this.. just a blog.
weird.
It’s baffling to see how many anti-vaxers don’t seem to understand what a hyperlink is. How do you use the internet if you don’t know that you can click on the blue words to go to referenced websites and articles?
Careful with the tone. Ms. Raff did in fact have hyperlinks going to other blogs rather than scientific evidence. Anonymous had a point.
Careful with the facts there, Claudia.
What % of Dr Raff’s links were to blogs, and what % were to scientific evidence?
What % of the blogs she linked to were written by people with advanced education in related fields, which suggests they were likely to have correctly understood the citations that those bloggers utilized?
The one scientific paper hyperlink I did follow failed complete because it was to a pay site for scientific papers. If scientists want their work recognized by the rest of us, they have to publish openly.
“If scientists want their work recognized by the rest of us, they have to publish openly.”
If those who want to follow the scientists work, then they should take the effort and go to the library. Every state in the USA has at least one public university. Those universities have libraries that subscribe to the journals. All you have to do is go to one of those libraries and ask the librarian for help.
Also, several of the links did go to the full papers.
By the way, there is lots of discussion on open source for the papers. Unfortunately if a researcher wants their paper free online it costs them a good chunk of their limited funds.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/anthropology/faculty/jr55277
How’s that work for you?
Or
http://about.me/jenniferraff
Hello Anonymous, here’s my CV: https://violentmetaphors.com/cv/
Hi Jennifer Raff,
While some of your points are quite valid, some of what you write can be challenged. Care to debate some of this? I expect not, but consider yourself challenged.
You can come to my university and I will try to set up a formal debate.
Professor Catherine DeSoto, Ph.D.
Anonymous – she appears to be the real thing complete with valid degrees, You on the other hand seem to be totally bogus and what are your valid credentials?
Her degree’s what?
Jennifer Raff has multiple degrees:
Ph.D. (2008) Anthropology and Genetics (dual degree): Indiana University, Bloomington
M.A. (2008) Anthropology: Indiana University, Bloomington
B. A. (2001) Biology and Anthropology (double major): Indiana University, Bloomington
Thanks, I was just teasing the original commenter for their misplaced apostrophe (“her degree’s”).
Yeah, case studies are the ones which make the science. Grow up people.
When one guy says four different things, that’s not science. That’s one guys opinion.
Thank you John, I love what you said. Most cases of Polio in the US are from the vaccination.This “Dr” does not address the deaths and brain deaths due to hot batches of vaccines that the drug companies refused to pull from the shelves either. I hate the typical sheep mentality of the medical profession. To blindly vaccinate no matter the reality.
Leslie,
What reality is that?
And why did you leave it?
Why is it that anti vaccine folks resort to calling people sheep? Why are mumps, measles and other diseases picking up steam at the same time the # of people speaking out against vaccines are picking up as well? Coincidence? I think not.
Yeah, after the live polio vaccine was introduced, it was so successful that by the 1960s, most of the ~1600 cases of polio were vaccine reactions. As opposed to none of the 50,000 cases we had in 1952, because it hadn’t been invented yet. (The oral polio vaccine is safer: we’re talking about a ‘majority’ of zero deaths.) Can you explain why 50,000 cases is “better” than, say, two or three cases? Because they were “natural”???
Well, maybe you should read about medicine from another doctor, any doctor really. who’s not a scam.
Here’s your sign!
Sandy, Bill would be so proud that you used it appropriately.
You are an imbecile
Suzanne Humphries, MD will put you in the picture http://whale.to/a/suzanne_humphries.html
Vaccines did not save humanity and never will. Vaccines have never been proven truly safe except for perhaps the parameters of immediate death or some specific adverse events within up to 4 weeks. Smallpox was not eradicated by vaccines as many doctors readily say it was. They say this out of conditioning rather than out of understanding the history or science. Polio virus was not responsible for the paralysis in the first part of the 20th century. Polio vaccine research, development, testing and distribution has committed atrocities upon primates and humanity. Bill Gates is not a humanitarian. Vaccines are dangerous and should never be injected into anyone for any reason. They are not the answer to infectious diseases. There are many more sustainable and benevolent solutions than vaccines.
What a sadly deluded person.
Yes the original post was delusional
Agreed. John, were you vaccinated?
My grandfather, mother and a number of other relatives that had polio and resultant paralysis between the years of 1909 and 1943 would be quite shocked to learn they never had polio. So would their physicians. If polio vaccine programs did not halt this scourge, what pray tell did?
Oh, good.
I was so relieved to see that it was not another post about vaccines!
😉
“It would be a shame if the correct theory … were developed by someone without a conventional academic position, who didn’t really take a lot of science classes in college and didn’t have a great math background but was always interested in the big questions, only for that theory to be neglected because of some churlish prejudice.
So we would like to present a simple checklist of things that alternative scientists should do in order to get taken seriously by the Man. And the good news is, it’s only three items! How hard can that be, really?”
Really. If you do these three things, the world of science (the one that actually kept you from dying before the age of 8, and kept your mother from dying in childbirth) will, indeed, hail you as a hero.
Read on…
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/06/19/the-alternative-science-respectability-checklist/#.U4oAnvldWn-
Right now in the US, 1 in 110 children is diagnosed with autism. For arguments sake, let’s say autism is caused by vaccines (which it IS NOT). Let’s also say that we stop using vaccines all together, for all children.
The number of children who will die or be permanently disabled by vaccine preventable diseases is about 30 – 50 children out of every 110. So even if vaccines did cause autism, it still makes sense to vaccinate your child.
And my GGrandparents would agree with you having lost 4 of 11 children to illness while in their infancy or childhood.
Plus, wouldn’t one rather have a live child with autism than have a child die from a preventable disease? Vaccines don’t cause autism, but even if they did, autism is not a death sentence.
Let me first start by saying this, I have had a case of whooping cough as an adult, and its one of the worst experiences of my life.
Back in 2010 while working all over our state I ended up very sick but felt like some kind of flu, no as a 34 year old man I thiught ok ive got a bad cold and should take some over the counter cough and cold medicine. I tried these for about a week and nothing it kept getting worse for about a month month and a half maybe…. finally I had all I could take when I began to cough up blood by the cup full. Every hospital that I went to, told me I had a flu we ruled out everything else hiv, hepatitis and about every other disease that could possibly cause the blood I was experiencing…
Eventually they decided to test me for everything out there and after weeks of pokes scopes and every test science has ever created they finally found a positive test and yep just like I said it was an adult case of whooping cough, now when they find this out they decide to scope my lungs and as they are putting this thing into my lungs they were having trouble see from all the blood the lungs were producing from the scope just touching the walls of my lungs and the pipes leading into the lungs, so they drowned me twice and tested the fluid for the whooping cough and low and behold another positive but much less then before thankfully my pulmonary specialists had started me on a very aggressive regimen of anti biotic but unfortunately the damage was already done … my lungs have no protective lining left and the docs think that it will never come back..
I finally asked where the hell could I have gotten a disease that was supposed to be under control or even better gone… the doctors told me that these diseases were making a come back because parents wont vaccinate their kids this is a doctor telling me this not a scientist not some goofy mega movie star, but a medical professional….now who am i gonna believe, the medical professionals or people that dont do research and listen to some random know it all or should I say some random person that thinks they know it all….
In conclusion vaccinate your kids because my life is cut drastically short from a disease that is so simple to prevent with vaccinations. ……
I’m sorry to hear you had to deal with such an awful disease. But here is my question: Were you vaccinated? If you were, shouldn’t you be asking why the vaccine didn’t work? So some kid that wasn’t vaccinated was carrying the disease…how did YOU end up with it? If vaccines work so well and are the answer to curing these diseases then how did a vaccinated person end up with it? Where was your protection?
For the record, I and all my children are vaccinated. I happen to think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and I will take my chances with the vaccines, even though I am not 100% convinced they work the way we are told.
Just like the tetanus vaccine, pertussis vaccination is not permanent. But then again, neither is the immunity from getting the actual disease:
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005 May;24(5 Suppl):S58-61.
Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.
So pertussis can wear off as soon as five years after suffering and feeling like you are going to cough your lungs out. Which is better than tetanus and diphtheria. If you survive either one of those, you can get again very quickly. It is unreasonable to think a vaccine will provide better immunity than the disease.
This is why adults are not being asked the next time they get a tetanus booster to get a Tdap, which also includes pertussis. The goal is to increase community immunity and have less of the bacteria in the area.
Bad typo, a very bad typo, the “w” turned into a “t”: This is why adults are now being asked the next time they get a tetanus booster to get a Tdap, which also includes pertussis.
Well I’m glad you are vaccinated, but as with everything, no doctor or scientist has ever claimed that anything is 100% perfect. There are always exceptions. But every day our understanding of the human body and microbiology grows as scientists and doctors tirelessly carry out the research that is necessary to continue to advance our knowledge.
The current pertussis vaccine appears to be only 60% effective. That’s worse than was expected, although it’s enough to reduce incidence except where nutcases stop vaccinating entirely. Having been vaccinated does not help chemo patients, AIDS patients, and others with weak immune systems, not to mention babies who are too young.
The current whooping cough vaccine is now ineffective. Its been on the news and in the papers. I know personally of four children who range in age between 10-3 yrs who were completely upto date with their vaccinations who recently tested positive for the illness. Apparently there is a new vaccine being worked on now.
Amen to that!
CDC data shows 84 percent of children under the age of 3 have received at least FOUR DTaP shots—which is the acellular pertussis vaccine that was approved in the United States in 1996—yet, despite this high vaccination rate, whooping cough still keeps circulating among both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
More likely than not, the vaccine provides very little if any protection, and this was evidenced very clearly in a study published in Clinical Infectious Diseases.
Researchers reviewed data on every patient who tested positive for pertussis between March and October 2010 at the Kaiser Permanente Medical Center in San Rafael, California.
Out of these 132 patients:
81 percent were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine
8 percent had never been vaccinated
11 percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series
84% is not a a “high vaccination rate” to keep pertussis under control. Now tell us of those 107 who were vaccinated who got pertussis, what percentage of them of all those exposed who were vaccinated and did not get pertussis. Then tell us of the 11 who were not vaccinate, out of that population what percentage they were of the total who did not get vaccinated. It is a matter of using the proper denominator.
Because the reason more get it that have been vaccinated is because there are more of them, like 84% of the total population.
I’m not sure if PK is looking at the same study, but the last one I saw was that unvaccinated kids were TWICE as likely to get whooping cough. As long as the vast majority of kids are vaccinated, we actually expect the sick cohort also to me mostly vaccinated, just, not as much. It’s the RELATIVE RISK that’s important.
Thank you so much for this topic. Iam a woman 48 years old. A class mate of mine had polio. He survived but got handicaped, his parents didnt want to vaccinate him, because of their believes. I still can hear this boy falling in the halllway of the school, when by accident someone bumped into him. Day in day out. My mum lost her sister of tbc. This was during worldwar II. When no medication was available here in The Netherlands. Also she lost her brother, he got diphtheria. Here in The Netherlands more and more people dont want to vaccinate their children, because of the fear talk that is running on the internet. Also the spreading of that pharmaceutical industry is sabotaging the vaccination programs by only want to earn money
Vaccine is a recent invention. Traditional medicines particularly here in asia took thousands of years to understand. Humans in clean white lab coats caused so much damage than good in this planet.
I’ll trust my half-naked ancestors. Thank you.
You mean the ancestors with the 35 year life expectancy? Sounds like a good plan.
So, you’re back to living in a cave – have you discovered fire yet?
The Initiated,
Please be sure you listen to them all,
including the half that died in childhood from the illnesses we now prevent with vaccines.
The Initiated: “Vaccine is a recent invention”
It was only invented a bit over two hundred years ago. So do you also fear things like internal combustion engines, electric lights, airplanes and the computer you typed that comment out on?
“I’ll trust my half-naked ancestors. Thank you.”
Oh, do please join them. Get undressed, wander back into the woods and figure out how to live off the land. Please!
Vaccines are NOT a new invention. Vaccination was definitely happening in India and China in the 16th and 17th centuries, possibly EARLIER: “It is believed likely that some form of inoculation was developed in India or China before the 16th century.”(1); “The tradition of inoculation may have originated in India in 1000 BCE.” (2)
1. Lombard M, Pastoret PP, Moulin AM (2007). “A brief history of vaccines and vaccination”. Rev. – Off. Int. Epizoot. 26 (1): 29–48. PMID 17633292.
2. Lund, Ole; Nielsen, Morten Strunge and Lundegaard, Claus (2005). Immunological Bioinformatics. MIT Press. ISBN 0-262-12280-4
Kindly refrain from making statements that are easily disproved. A simple google search is all you need to double-check your “facts” before you comment.
Just curious…I had Guillan-Barre Syndrome when I was 5 and have been instructed not to get flu vaccinations because that’s what could have set it off in the first place. Is this true?
“Just curious…I had Guillan-Barre Syndrome when I was 5 and have been instructed not to get flu vaccinations because that’s what could have set it off in the first place. Is this true?”
Possibly. That is, it’s a known rare bad reaction. But people got GBS before the flu vaccine even existed, so it’s not a slam dunk.
If you were advised not to get the flu jab then do not get it . GBS was around prior to vaccines as one person comments but the point here is that if flu gave youvthe first bout then the flu vaccine ( which fools the immune system into thinking you have the real flu and makes it react accordingly) would carry a high risk for you hence the medical advice you have been given . I don’t know what you remember about GBS as a 5 year old but having nursed it in adults I am here to tell you , you don’t want it .
Of course, you also can get GBS from just having the flu in the first place. GBS can be triggered by an infection, whether that be a controlled one in the form of a vaccine or actually getting ill.
This is what I know. My parents didn’t vaccinate my brother or me. When I was 9, he was 7, we both had Whooping Cough. My brother was hospitalized because his was more severe and he had pneumonia, too. I stayed at Grandma’s house for a week while my brother was in the hospital. The very next year, I got Rheumatic Fever and had to be hospitalized. I missed 3 months of school and they were talking about holding me back a year but they didn’t because, luckily, I was a pretty good student. I was held back from participating in PE for years and, even though I don’t have heart damage, I don’t feel as if I’m as strong as I should be. I’m 55 and I believe I am still feeling the effects of my parents decision to not vaccinate us.
As a medical professional and a mother, I don’t understand how parents can do this to their children!!! I have a sister that refuses to vaccinate 2 of her children because someone convinced her that my older niece’s Leukemia was caused by vaccines…. Parents become so paranoid because someone says “it happened to a friend of a friend of a friend of my sister’s cousin”. The anti-vaccine argument is (in my personal opinion) something urban legendary. No one ever ” knows” someone or spoken to someone that has in fact experienced a vaccine side effect… so many things contribute to how your body reacts to things. And PEOPLE:: STOP TAKING MEDICAL ADVICE FROM A PLAYBOY MODEL!!
…ummm plenty of people have side effects from vaccines. Not to mention the many who have commented on here saying ths same -including myself. As a “medical professional” you should know this and most likely have seen it. You may not want to admit that though. Btw im not anti-vax
So what are the percentages? How many have serious side effects from vaccines versus the effects of actually getting the disease. For instance, measles can cause encephalitis in one out of about a thousand cases. Does the MMR cause that much harm?
We vaccinated our first child till 18 months. At that point, she suddenly lost all of her words and began showing signs of autism a week after an mmr vaccine. I can not know if it caused the autism or awakened it or if it had anything to do with it. To those that say an autistic child is better than one to get sick from a vaccinated disease, have one or don’t talk about what you don’t know. It belittles what those of us with autistic kids do and have to deal with.
I had shingles less than a week after our second was born and neither child got chicken pox. Yes, preventable diseases are damaging children, but if we had a decent health care system in this country those illnesses could be treated easily with medications instead of by vaccinations.
Do your own research, make up your OWN mind, and don’t let either side bully you. Both will, and it’s frustrating. We did our research, weighed pros and cons, and decided against vaccinations. Our girls have had only sniffles since we no longer vaccinate, we all got rubella after our first was vaccinated. Some coincidence.
You evidently did not thoroughly research your topics otherwise you would have discovered that a case of shingles will not pass to another as a case of chicken pox though the same virus is involved. Also, I’m willing to bet that there are those parents who would have been willing to exchange their sick child and now deceased or profoundly retarded child for one that is autistic.
I assume I’m allowed to comment, since both of my children are autistic?
First of all, let me say how sorry I feel for your children. I don’t “deal” with mine; even when they refuse to wear underpants, or headbutt me in the face out of excitement, or weep uncontrollably because of a minor setback in our schedule, I love and care for them, as opposed to “dealing” with them. Assuming you have non-ASD children, do you also “deal” with those, or are they worthy of more sincere affection and enjoyment?
Secondly, your faulty reasoning and your rigid view of this subject leads me to believe that you yourself probably have an undiagnosed ASD. Until you accept that it’s your genes and your inability to go with the flow and respond flexibly and creatively to your children’s needs that is causing the main problem, I suspect your situation is unlikely to improve.
I hope your children don’t suffer too much, as a result of your ignorance, neglect, projection and self-loathing.
AmandaQuirky
PS My friendly, funny, surprising and lovable autistic children are much, much happier than they would have been, had I allowed them to suffer needlessly from preventable, crippling, and even deadly diseases. Since their welfare is more important to me than my own, and since I love and like them with all that I am, I am quite content with our situation. The same can become true for you, if you get over yourself.
Wow, attack much? Sorry, I use “deal” in a different manner than most. I love our daughter more than anything. I would do anything for her.
Science isn’t everything. We made a decision of our choice. I am not pushing not vaccinating, I merely relayed our decision. YOU attacked and I fully plan on reporting this as such.
I haven’t attacked you at all–in what way do you believe I have? I pointed out what I think your actual problem is, and how it’s not your daughter. If I misunderstood your intention, then I’m sorry for that… but the rest of it? You’re putting your children’s lives at risk, on a whim. If that’s not neglect, I don’t know what is.
You call me neglectful, ignorant, diagnose me, and say you feel sorry for my children but that’s not an attack, really?
Stay out of my life choices and I will stay out of yours. My daughter is not a problem. Maybe you are projecting. I said my daughters autism appeared after an mmr vaccine, I also explicitly said I can’t prove that caused it. Maybe it woke it up, I don’t know. Blind trust in science is no less ignorant than you accuse me of being. The world is so polarized by religion and science.
As others have pointed out, why are you so worried about my unvaccinated children if yours are? If, gigantic if, they become severely ill because they were not vaccinated then it is on us. That is a risk we take. My wife is severely allergic to thymerisol so we should risk a reaction in our daughters too?
Our decision was not a whim. You have made your decisions, we made ours.
I’ll address the one new point you’ve made; I am concerned for *your* children, not my own (although any number of people who cannot use vaccines–for legitimate reasons, such as immunodeficiency–ARE being put at risk, by your unvaccinated children). My children’s vaccinations are up to date, and they both rarely catch colds, sniffles, etc, as well (they get ill less often than I do, in fact)… I find it particularly revealing that even though I explicitly stated my concern for your children in my first comment, you’ve failed to recognize my perspective at all. Mind blindness, rigid thinking patterns, a child with autism: all are pretty obvious symptoms of someone with an ASD.
I’m truly sorry if you feel that my pointing that out to you is offensive; but just so we’re clear, suggesting that you have an autistic spectrum disorder is not an attack. That you would perceive it as such further reinforces my belief that you think individuals with ASD are somehow inferior to those without… my sympathy for your daughter is growing by the minute.
Your comments to granolaguy sounded like an attack to me! And you don’t know that he’s putting his children at risk – that’s just your opinion.
No, he said he’s not vaccinating his children–that would mean he’s putting them at risk pretty much daily (unless he makes them go through life inside a plastic bubble, which I doubt–he doesn’t even think diseases are dangerous enough to vaccinate against; why would he go to silly lengths to protect his kids against something when he won’t go to reasonable lengths to do so?).
I didn’t attack him. An attack would have involved using tactics such as name-calling, or if I insulted him in some untruthful manner, or if I verbally threatened him in some way… I’ve done none of those things. Calling someone out on their chilld neglect, and outlining the error of their ways may be uncomfortable, but it’s not an attack.
She did not attack – go ahead and report. She expressed her opinion and backed it up with actual experience.
Thank you, Anonymous. I know I come on a bit strong; but since when is a person putting their kids’ lives (as well as others’ lives) at risk not something to speak out against? And. I hate that “we suffer so much” mindset, re: families with autistic members. Oh boo hoo hoo. Other families have a rough time, as well. All children are hard work; raising them takes a lot out of you (but you get a lot back, too!). To imply that having an autistic child could in any way be worse than having a dead one… what utter, insulting nonsense.
I wish there was a “like” button for your comments.
I had mumps as a child (age 5) and developed unilateral hearing loss from the disease. You might not think that is a big deal given the apparent risks of mmr (which has been proven time and time again not to cause autism) but there are many things I can’t do because of this side effect. Doctors can’t reverse damage done by these diseases and I only had a mild case of mumps, prevention is always better than a cure.
I have a friend whose son with ASD diagnosed…she is very vocal about the science that shows Autism isn’t caused by vaccines. She is also very vocal that she would rather that her third child were alive with ASD than having lost her at birth. Just my two cents, based on what this mom has told me.
They say that the normal vaccine schedule is too difficult for a child’s immune system to cope with.
It isn’t.
Read more at http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied#6gEKM11mhbmSsLA9.99
I disagree with this statement.
On February 25, 2000, my first son Jack was born. Being first time parents we were scrupulous in taking him in for his immunization shots on the schedule prescribed by his pediatrician.
When he was 2 weeks old, we brought him in for a battery of shots including DTaP. That evening he had a pretty adverse reaction that included a fever and non-stop crying. We called the doctor and monitored him as instructed. He had a tough go but recovered the next day.
Regardless, we continued with his recommended immunizations.
As he got older we noticed that he was unique: hyper-lexic at eighteen months old, incredible memory ( he could relate the key information on several hundred dinosaurs from his favorite book at two years old). These amazing skills were eventually accompanied by negative aspects such as sensory sensitivities, night terrors, and an inability to pick up,on social cues.
He was diagnosed as Aspergers in first grade.
We then dived deeply into books, articles, and any other information that we could get our hands on to try to understand the cause and how best to help him.
We were appalled to discover that the immunizations that he had received contained dangerous substances, and were administered on a schedule that appeared risky to an immature nervous system.
When our second son was born in 2006, we were much more involved and assertive with regard to what shots he received and on what schedule. He eventually received all of them, but on a very much longer timeline than is traditionally recommended.
He is now 8, and is perfectly healthy and neuro-typical.
I understand that this is only one sample, but I find it impossible to believe that babies have no adverse reaction to these batteries of shots that include mercury and other dangerous substances at such an early age. I don’t need a study to tell me this. It’s a rational conclusion.
Given the risks, why wouldn’t a parent want their child immunized on a safer schedule?
Correlation is not causation. Also, I am confused as to why you would expect that an accurate comparison could be made between your children. Coming from a large home, I can tell you that each of my siblings reacted to everything differently. Yes, their are genetic problems that are prevalent in all of us, but as for how we reacted to medicines, what side of the brain we use more, etc. we are all different. Your logic is flawed. My first born is in the process of being diagnosed with high functioning autism, which he has displayed symptoms for since he was a baby. My second child has zero symptoms of autism. Both have been immunized since birth, on the prescribed timetable. I do not believe in any way that anything we did or didn’t do caused my son to be autistic, but not my daughter. My husband and I are now considering the possibility that my husband may be high functioning autistic as well, since he shows many similar tendencies and struggles, and science is starting to show a genetic link between parent and child.
Sorry, *there not their
The food,water and air are full of toxins vaccines are only one aspect of items we put into our children that cause illnesses. I witnessed 2 children in my family who were healthy normal babies until they began having the shots and after they had them the differences were quickly noticed. In italy a study was done that concluded that mercury in the vaccines caused neuron damage in infants. I have grown tired of debating it and seldom discuss it on FB because it leads to nothing but aggravation for those on each side of the argument. The problem with studies is that usually the person that pays for them gets the results that they are desiring. Perhaps some need to be done by independent sources that are not funded by the makers of the products and then we can see what an unbiased set of experiments brings forth.
Richard Rossadillo,
Violentmetaphors has opened a thread called “What would it take to convince you?”
that asks for exactly the kind of responses you seem to be waiting to tell us:
what sort of information you would like published.
Please be as specific as you can, letting us know what sort of information, what experimental designs, who you want to fund it, how you plan to get that type of funding, who you want doing the research, where you want the results published, etc.
When I was 12 my best friend, father, and I contracted whooping cough. It took 4 weeks and doctor visits in 2 states, both military and civilian, to properly diagnose us (1982). 6 years later, a year after the Navy had re-vaccinated me for ‘everything’, I contracted it again. I knew the cough, the docs didn’t, and weren’t convinced that it was in fact whooping cough, so it took several weeks before a Lt. Commander actually listened to me and secured a positive test result that I indeed had it. Inasmuch as you might think the vaccination didn’t work, I’d argue that I’m likely a rare case where the vaccine just couldn’t protect me. I’d also contend that the vaccine did in fact work – outside of the 3 of us in 1982, we didn’t infect anyone else, and when I contracted it in the Navy, no one else got sick (which factored into why my hypothesis to medical wasn’t properly addressed right away).
And….I am betting in the next 10 years that science will prove Autism to be genetic. I saw it in my grandfather, my Dad and aunt, and my brother. My sons were spared, but they will be observant once they start having children. The syndrome has nothing to do with vaccines.
There has been links to non inherited factors, but recent studies indicate that it gets started during fetal development. But that is why eating fish with high levels of mercury is bad while pregnant
Interesting that when I read your original post, I had the same thought that it is too bad that when their unvaccinated children get sick with these awful diseases that they will be first in line to seek out modern medical treatment. If only they would listen and seek out care before it were life threatening and still preventible. Great posts!
Life is a nesting doll of information to wade through;
“Over 98 million Americans received one or more doses of polio vaccine between 1955 to 1963 when a proportion of vaccine was contaminated with SV40; it has been estimated that 10–30 million Americans may have received a dose of vaccine contaminated with SV40.[53] Later analysis suggested that vaccines produced by the former Soviet bloc countries until 1980, and used in the USSR, China, Japan, and several African countries, may have been contaminated; meaning hundreds of millions more may have been exposed to SV40.[58]”
So, the SV40 has been found in some cancers but has yet to be correlated directly.
http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/cdc-disappears-page-linking-polio-vaccines-to-cancer-causing-viruses/
What’s the opinion on this?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-antivaccine-zombie-meme-sv40-and-cancer-and-polio-oh-my/
Short version: It was found out by scientists and vaccine procedures were changed to remove the contamination over fifty years ago in the USA, and others countries over thirty years ago. There is really no evidence that it is related to human cancer. End of the non-story.
Lots of back and forth comments here – you show me your evidence and I’ll show you mine variety- all of which miss the most important issue in all this. Both sides ask an almost identical question which is ‘how can parents risk their children in this way’ when the question they should be asking themselves is ‘ once a parent decides for themselves that vaccination is either essential to their child’s health or a potential danger to it why would anyone imagine they would not pursue the course of action in line with that conviction?’ So advertise both sides of the issue by all means and put all the information out there but accept that parents have the final responsibility for that decision and no-one has a greater concern for their children than they do. For myself , a retired nurse, I say that medical science is evolving all the time and today’s certainty is often yesterday’s partial knowledge or outright mistake . I always speak in terms of ‘current thinking’ rather than absolutes having learned that there are precious few of those .
Lilian Weimer,
Your point is not wrong, by any means. But it also might not be as universal as it seems at first.
A) there are not “two sides” to this issue, any more than there are two sides to whether the earth is flat or whether gravity works or whether saying “god bless you” keeps the devil from stealing your soul when you sneeze.
Vaccines prevent vaccine-preventable diseases.
They don’t work 100% of the time. They are not free of other consequences 100% of the time. They are not the only thing that helps prevent transmission of contagious diseases. But the benefit outweighs the potential harm by, well, ginormous amounts (using whatever definition of ginormous you would like to use).
B) Parents do not always have their childrens’ interest at heart more than anyone else. Most do, but not all. I wish what you said were true, but the parents who beat their kids “for their own good”, and the parents who make their kids sick so the parent can be the hero (Munchausen by Proxy syndrome), and the parents who drive drunk with the kids in the car, (and let’s not go to “Toddlers and Tiaras”) – all show that sometimes parents make decisions for their kids that are really just about the self-aggrandizing parents.
I have the suspicion that some of the anti-vax parents are really just looking for the honor, distinction, praise from other anti-vaxers for “making a stand” and those same parents would have made a public stand for whatever silly cause would have gotten them attention. I hope I’m wrong.
C) This is not just about what is best for one’s own children, but what is dangerous for others’ children. If you are going to keep your children isolated from others until they are, say, 12, then I guess I have no quarrel.
Would you accept it as “personal choice” if someone sent their kids to the same school where yours go, if those other parents’ kids arrived with loaded guns? What if they said, “Well, we researched the topic thoroughly and decided we believe our kid is safer with the gun than without it and we provided lots of training to assure that our kids know how to store, carry, and use the guns safely?”
That may seem like an extreme or even silly analogy, but a six-shooter couldn’t harm more that 6 other kids (assuming no reloading), but a lot more than that can be harmed be an outbreak of measles, or diphteria, or whooping cough, or polio, or ….
Interestingly enough for the last 10 years before Britain stopped using the half dead half alive vaccine for Poliomyelitis the only people presenting with the disease were parents and siblings of small babies who were being vaccinated for it . They failed to understand that for 3 months the virus was excreted in all the bodily fluids of the baby and that they had to take precautions . Parents were also not given medical hazard bags for diapers and wipes to be taken away …so they presumably went into landfill sites . There was a time when the tetanus vaccine was thought to be a one off lifetime protection deal , I am old and remember it well . Well that didnt turn out to be the case and now it needs renewing every 10 years is it ? And boosters if you get a cat scratch or deep cut gardening depending on when you had the last shot . There was a time when people thought that one bout of measles and chickenpox was your lot and you were done . Reality is that chickenpox can come back several times albeit in milder versions most of the time . The point is medical science is not a finished and bound book. It is very much a work in process and opinions change according to new evidence . As to your particular points and the rather silly analogy about guns I have already said it is a parents choice and responsibility. Unless you intend to operate a no fly policy ie no one ever leaves America or comes back from foreign places or immigrates from other nations , even Western nations , then you cannot guarantee a child never being exposed to disease or vaccinate against every possible option . To live is to risk . We already expose kids, who may never in their life have otherwise been exposed, to the various forms of hepatitis . The TB vaccine thought originally to give lifetime immunity is now found to be most effective for 9 weeks ! In the this state of flux parents must be given the right to choose which information they act upon because if something goes wrong either with a vaccine or without it nine of us will feel the consequences like they and their child will. I just pray we still have enough humanity left not to gleefully gloat at someone from the opposing viewpoint should that happen . My gut tells me not to hold my breath on that one .
Was John Scudamore serious when he wrote in an above comment that vacinnes did not eradicate smallpx or polio? Was he serious when he wrote that only 10% of the population was vaccinated for these diseases?
I am old enough to have been part of the massive polio immunisation campaign in Canada.
I was also immunized for smallpox under a similar massive immunisation sweep. Children were vaccinated by the millions.We were lined up in school and vaccinated. Later we were lined up again and tested for immunity.
I do not know an adult my age who does not bear the telltale scar from the smallpox vaccine. The first time a saw a human being without a smallpox scar I was shocked. It was like a miracle to me: a sign that smallpox had been eradicated. When I look at the arms of my own (now adult) children and see that they have no small pox scar I feel an intense joy for the world.
I do not know an adult my age who does not remember collecting dimes for the march of dimes to raise money for millions of polio vaccines. We cllected dimes in small cardboard boxes door to door. Salk was every mother’s hero. No more children dying of polio. No more paralysis. No more polio canes.
Everyone my age knew people who died of smallpox. Everyone knew people who lived though smallpox and had scar encrusted faces.
Everyone of us has just one smallpox scar from the live vaccine and life-long gratitude that we could never get smallpox. I would look at my husband’s handsome face and wonder if his father had looked like him before he had smallpox. There was no way of telling: my father-in-law’s face was a cratered mass of ruptered skin badly healed.
Everyone my age knew someone who died of polio, someone disabled by polio, and someone who survived polio unscathed but who has post-polio syndrome now.
We all had measles, mumps, chicken-pox and whooping cough and some of our friends died. Some of our friends and husbands are sterile from mumps. Our friends and children are hearing impaired from German Measles. We, our friends, and our children have shingles, Bell’s palsy and trigemminal neuralgia from having had chicken pox.
And did just as many people have autism? Probably. It was just called by a lot of different names. We had spastics, idiot-savants, unsocial kids, and retarded kids. We had a whole range of terms that no one would use today.
No one takes John Scudamore seriously, he is more of a source of amusement. Along with lots of anti-medicine stuff he goes into all sorts of strange beliefs. He is the guy behind the infamous whale.to website. Here is some reading:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whale.to
John Scud more is clueless.
Thank you for your response. I agree completely with what you said about the increase in autism. As I see the tendencies in my child that points to autism, and I see many others with it, I think back to my childhood and I can point out people and kids who most likely had it as well, but no one knew it was a real issue. Instead, kids were labeled as difficult, introverted, overly sensitive, obsessive… and people just expected them to “get over it”, or expected it was simply part of their personality. I am 30 years old, and only recently was I diagnosed with ADD. I have struggled with it all of my life; however, no one recognized it as a legitimate problem. Instead they just thought I was scatter brained, disorganized, forgetful, and lazy. So, I can see how the increase in these disorders and diagnoses are very plausibly a result of increased education and research.
I agree with most vaccines being really important to save our lives, but what is your opinion on experimental vaccines?
In Mexico, 2009, we got the pandemic AH1N1 influenza virus. Thousands of vaccines were bought by the goverment, but there were many sites saying this vaccine was experimental, with not enough testing and potentially dangerous. My mom took it and felt terrible afterwards for quite a time, I chose not to took it. Was her’s a common side effect case that always happens to a certain percentage of the population or was the vaccine genuinly not well tested?
carlosbarcena,
This is an interesting question, and one that does not appear (at least to me) to be a setup to try and sell Mercola or NaturalNews as valid sources of information.
I don’t have that answer, but I will try to look into it.
In the mean time, if someone else has actual information (as opposed to knee-jerk presumptions), please do chime in.
Dr. Suzanne Humphries is not a women in whom I place any faith.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/02/16/dr-suzanne-humphries-and-the-internation/
So when will the links in your article begin to work? Or is this more “science by assertion of authority” which is why people distrust scientists to begin with.
They work fine in the article that this one refers to, the links to the scientific literature is there. Perhaps you should actually look in the original article:
Just so you know my frame of reference, I have been in the ambulatory healthcare business for over 20 years. I had my son at 35. I just re-read your first couple of lines in your article. First, are you saying that under the conditions where your patients died, do all kids who don’t get vaccinated then get whooping cough and/or meningitis die? Are you sure that if those who died been given vaccines, they would still be alive? Also, WHO (or what company) funded the study that is trying to “educate” or intimidate? The pediatrician thought my son needed the rotavirus vaccine. He explained why. I said “no.” He was not in day care, he was home most of the time, and the vaccine was new on the market. This pediatrician would have called the “bad mommy police” if he could have. I held my ground. Several weeks later, the vaccine was pulled quietly off the market citing “gastrointestinal blockages.” Do you think that Dr. notified those who did receive the rotavirus vaccine? Did you?
Then I allowed the varicella vaccine. Within 48 hours, he had a full blown case of chicken pox. I was told “he had to have been exposed before he received the vaccine.” Now I’m told, by clinicians, that was untrue.
Why did the CDC insist Thimerosal be removed as a vaccine preservative?
The stories and studies, like opinions, are endless. I had to write a letter to the pediatrician’s office releasing them from liability. Well, who is taking care of the kids that DID have adverse reactions and will need life-long care? I guess that’s why the government temporarily created a fund for these poor kids and their heartbroken families who the fund was created for – even though, according to the author, the fund was clearly not needed. When hepatitis, HPV, meningitis are suggested now I will think long and hard about WHO and WHAT it truly benefits. Medicine is now a big money business. Follow (how sad) the money. How long has the vaccine been on the market? Unfortunately, I no longer believe in the integrity of the physician, pharma or the FDA. Do you know what they call the person who graduated last from their medical school class? Doctor.
What do they call the person who graduated first in his class from the University of Google?
I am pro-vaccination, but I tend to stay wary about both studies pro and contra. This discussion has become so important that I don’t believe that researchers can still work fully unbiased.
But nonetheless, I have some arguments for the ‘non-believers’.
First of all, toxins are everywhere. Yes, they may be in vaccines, but how many times have you heard that toys are being called back, or food, or other stuff. And our air is polluted by cars and industry, and so is the water. So, if you really want to prevent toxins ‘that could trigger autism’, just….don’t live on this planet.
Secondly, science is difficult. Yes, sciences makes mistakes, yes, articles can be wrong and recalled, and yes, medication can have unexpected side effects. It is impossible to test EVERYTHING when you’re doing medical science. Unless you want to wait 50 more years for that medicine you desperately need…. I saw the case of H1N1 pop up here, that’s the perfect example. The tests for the vaccine were shortened because of ‘medical urgency’, which means side effects are not tested thoroughly, the main importance lied on ‘is this relatively safe to use or not?’, so they could prevent loads of deaths.
Third, proving a causal relationship is even harder. You can find correlations between everything, but this doesn’t mean everything can be causally linked. For example, there’s a correlation between being male and liking soccer. Does that mean that being male CAUSES you to like soccer? No, it doesn’t. I’ve seen many of these correlations appear in scientific literature, but I’m always sceptic about them. So just because your child is diagnosed with something after getting a vaccine, does not necessarily mean the vaccine caused it.
I rest my case here.
Just a quick reply to “This discussion has become so important that I don’t believe that researchers can still work fully unbiased.”. The point of a correctly designed scientific study is that it doesn’t matter if the researchers have an opinion on the matter already. When trialling something in patients, neither the patients nor the research staff know who has received something (say a vaccine), and who has received a placebo. Therefore they are treated in exactly the same manner, with the same amount of attention paid to every patient in the study. From the raw results, any conclusions drawn by the authors must be substantiated by the data, otherwise the peer-review process will flag it up.
Suppose a group of researchers did produce a landmark paper that showed categorically a negative effect from vaccines. Firstly that paper is going to be subject to incredible scrutiny from an awful lot of scientists, and the design of the trial and the data interpretation would have to be perfect. If a group of researchers truly believed that they had ground-breaking results that would change the way we approach disease prevention, then there’s a huge incentive to publish, that trial is not going to be hidden away so that the researchers “toe the party line” on vaccination. For starters, publishing that research is going to get you into a very high profile journal, which boosts your career. Secondly, whilst it may not appeal to everyone, think of the fame! Andrew Wakefield is thoroughly discredited for his MMR/Autism paper, but he can still dine out on his “achievements”. The researchers would become heroes for a significant number of people overnight. You’d finally have those that are scientifically-informed and the anti-vaccination groups working together!
There’s no way that any scientifically valid research that showed significant doubts about the safety of vaccines wouldn’t be huge news, and authoring that paper would not be hugely beneficial.
Just like to open a can of worms here..
Firstly I’d like to start by saying I’m an observer. I don’t have kids, I received childhood vaccines and all the boosters and I agree with many of the points made my pro and anti vaxxers. My issue is that I have an autistic younger brother who has a lot of autistic friends. And a trend that I’ve noticed is that every one of those friends seems to be vaccinated. So we (my mum and I) did some research and found this huge debate was occurring. Now since I have no statistical proof of that you’re more than welcome to discount it, I was simply offering it as explanation to my point of veiw. However, I have found during my research many articles (the same science which dr Raff calls apon) which state that vaccines may not be the godsend against disease in which they appear.
Click to access danni_neurologici_vaccini.pdf
The above is one done by the peadeatric section of the university of biyolstok. It outlines many issues with vaccination that perhaps need to be recognised by our own government. There are a few other studies I’ll post if anyone is still interested
In conclusion, I’d still vaccinate my kids if I get around to having some. However, I’d be very careful when waging up the risks and the benefits with each individual vaccine. I’d look at the necessity of a vaccine (ie wether a baby needs to have hep b at birth) and the safety concerns with the individual chosen vaccination. The other factor that needs to be considered is the health and well being of the child. Wether immune wise they are functioning properly or the degree to which there body responds to medication (natural and pharmaceutical) body are important to consider when making the vaccination choice. That being said, I believe many changed must immediately be made to childhood vaccinations such as the amount, the ingredients and the individual tailoring of vaccinations towards your child.
Every child is individual, one size does not fit all so do your research, have an open mind and make the best decision for your kid wether it is or it isn’t to vaccinate.
Angus,
I appreciate the thoughtful and polite comment (Not that this is my blog, but as a participant in the discussion, I appreciate that.)
“That being said, I believe many changed must immediately be made to childhood vaccinations such as the amount, the ingredients and the individual tailoring of vaccinations towards your child.”
What sort of evidence would you consider convincing to change your mind on that particular point? What would it take to change your mind – just on that one statement?
Angus,
My apologies. I had some trouble following who was replying to who.
I’m working my way through the article. Trying to get the gist and then going back and re-reading individual sections more carefully.
I’ll admit right now that they know details of the immune system which I don’t.
It seems to be a summary or review article, and not a study of it’s own.
That’s not a bad thing, just pointing out that this article does not appear to have any new or original research.
It appears they want to change some details of the current schedule, but they conclude that…
“It seems that it would be worthwhile to
apply the precautionary principle – the ethical
principle (from 1988) according to which if there is
a probable, although poorly known, risk of adverse
effects of new technology, it is better not to
implement it rather than risk uncertain but
potentially very harmful consequences.”
Wouldn’t that advice apply to their proposal for changes? If we follow that “precautionary principle,” then we should not change anything from the status quo until the potential hazards of their proposal are better known.
But, as I say, I am still digesting it and I might change my understanding of the article completely.
Now perhaps you would be so good as to answer my question.
What would it take to change your mind about the need to immediately change some of the schedule and ingredients?
You will note that it is not in a peer reviewed journal. One reason may be that they put too much weight on some dodgy research, like the Geiers. And check out one of the references that caught my eye:
73.
http//www.whale.to/m/incao.htlm, Hepatitis B
Vaccination Testimony in Ohio
–
March 1,
1999
Since vaccination coverage in most USA communities is still over 90%, it’s hardly surprising that your brother’s friends are all vaccinated. But there most certainly are unvaccinated autistic kids too. Indeed, if you go to one of the better known anti-vax web sites, a regular poster whose first child was autistic did not vaccinate the second child, but he was autistic, too. (Hereditary factors!?) So she blames the mercury in her old dental fillings. Whatever.
What saddens me most about Ms. Raff’s original post and many of the comments I have read is the dogmatic attitude that is held up in the name of science. Ms. Raff offers up a quote that reads “the good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it”….Let’s replace one word “the good thing about religion is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it”.
Scientists like Ms. Raff are fundamentalists. They maintain the status quo. The scientists that have come up with innovative and life saving practices were fringe thinkers who were not satisfied with the status quo and were often considered heretics in their respective fields. I strongly suspect they would not want to be associated with anyone shaming people for questioning. Questioning is what leads to progress and improves our collective lot in life.
As for some absolute truth, whether we are speaking of religion or science, it is not possible as they are both human made and therefore subject to all the flaws as well as attributes of our species. I will describe the scientific research process and you tell me when/where it gets absolutely true/objective…1. Scientists decides to test out a premise. 2. Scientist submits idea for approval/funding 3. Scientist gets funding and with it some parameters for his/her study 4. Scientist submits findings hoping to get published so he/she can get more funding for next project.
I wish we would all admit the system is flawed and allow for the reasonableness of questioning what we are told.We all have to function in an imperfect world and make decisions without all the information we would ideally want.
I would have had more respect for Ms. Raff’s rant if she had simply stated that in her humble opinion the benefits outweigh the risks when it comes to vaccination. Instead she bombarded us with hyperlinks (to show she meant business I guess-at least one of them was another blog/rant) and implied that anyone that would question her scientist self was unconsciously afraid that she had exposed their irrational ignorance.
Dear Claudia,
I would have had more respect for you if you had understood the words.
“Science” is not about opinion.
And pretending it is leads to people thinking that the scientific facts about something are open to opinion, like the opinion “that the weather today is too hot.” When the science says that the dew point today is 87 Deg F, or it is 64 def F. Whether you have the opinion that either of these is “too hot” is of no consequence as to whether the dew point is 87 or 64.
But the next time you drive over a bridge, take comfort in the Fact that whether the bridge is strong enough to withstand the weight of the cars and the force of the wind was NOT somebody’s Opinion.
From dictionary.reference.com:
sci·ence [sahy-uhns] Show IPA
noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
From merriam-webster.com
1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study
b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4: a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws
from oxforddictionaries.com
Syllabification: sci·ence
Pronunciation: /ˈsīəns /
The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment
Geswin,
Basically it’s a conclusion reached by looking a numerous studies (both pro and anti vax) and based on my own experiences. I look around and I see vaccination rates increasing which is good if you want those diseases eradicated (which we all do), but I see sickness increasing as well if you know what I mean. Mental illness, diabetes, the range of sti’s, nutritional deficiencies and I’d like to single out autism. Now that being said it’s most likely all of these have nothing to do with vaccination except potentially mental illness (based on studies like the one above). To me, this is a flashing red light going off. It means something isn’t right. It means that at the moment society is doing something very very wrong. And although I attribute diet as more of a cause of these many wrongs, it would be silly to discount vaccination as a potential culprit when there is evidence out there that suggests it could be having a negative effect.
The problem is that I’ve seen all the evidence out there prove that my statement is ludicrous and initially I dismissed it. But them I saw alternate evidence from sources just as credible as the previous. If time travel existed, I would go forward and see if there were negative effects. That would change my mind. However, if you’re feeling game I wouldn’t mind seeing your evidence to support that no changes need to be made in the immunisation schedule. Feel free to share some hyperlinks.
Just out of interest, did you read the study? I found it very very interesting and amazing that mainstream media didn’t report it, I had to search rigorously to find it myself. What were your thoughts on it?
Oh sorry, that’s me above
To which study are you referring?
I’m not trying to be evasive, but I don’t know which Anonymous I’m answering, and so don’t know which study it is to which you are referring.
It’s Angus geswin, I wrote that’s me above. The study I posted in my original post
“through observation and experiment”…”through the scientific method”…”knowledge of facts or principles”…
To suggest that science is not fluid, fluctuating, and always expanding only shows your actual lack of understanding regarding “science”. We are always learning more, breaking new boundaries, discovering new processes. Science, while more tangible in some aspects, is not concrete. It is not final. Until we know everything there is always a chance that today’s “facts” will change. “Current understanding” is a phrase because there is always a chance that tomorrow will bring a discovery that changes what we know today. The way I observe things and the way my color blind husband observes them are different. It doesn’t make either one of us more or less right, it just means the information our brains take in is different…the variable and fluctuation of all scientific method. If I look into a microscope at a cell, I may describe it as light pink in the middle and becoming increasingly darker toward the edges with an overall rounded shape. Do you have a pretty clear picture? Now, my husband may describe it as a pale cell with dark edges and an egg-like shape. Slightly different picture, yes? Those variations could mean the difference in how our “observations” are read and used by future scientists. My husband may not see the fading colors from edge to middle and because his brain looks for shapes as a form of recognition in daily life instead of relying on colors, he might see the slight narrowing at one end of the cell giving it an egg-like shape that I may not have seen. Those variations in observation can be the difference in how the information is used and the clues it gives future scientists building on our observation and current knowledge.
There are some of you who have forgotten that this is social media.
leave a comment and you are open to to judgements, critism, and sometimes
just plain stupidity.
I do think children should be vaccinated… I also believe the names of those who do not vaccinate should be made public so that we have a choice in who are we come in contact with.
Furthermore I believe that it is not vaccines that are the cause of autism but the chemicals, aspartame, and GMOs that are in our food. Autism, Downs, Aspergers, ADD, Cancer, MS, etc….it was rare to hear about these BEFORE Monsanto and all the crap that’s been put in our food and water supply…. We are being poisoned.
Think about it…. Really…. Think about it! Vaccines are not the problem! Seriously!
I agree with you 100%
Interesting that ingesting foreign chemicals into your blood stream that are proved safe have no risk yet ingesting chemicals that are proved safe by the same authorities involve risk care to explain your reasoning
what about the link between SIDS and Immunizations? this is what I found
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990705002005
Veira Schreibner is a retired geologist, and has been known as having a very strong anti-vaccine stance. She was awarded the 1997 “Bent Spoon” by the Australian Skeptics. She is respected just as much as John Scudamore and his whale.to website full of woo.
By the way, I am out of links but it has been shown that vaccination reduces SIDS:
Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.
Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis
I don’t know a lot about vaccines, I know that my daughters were vaccinated and are doing very well. my older daughter was not vaccinated for chickenpox, she had chickenpox and that is good enough. if the claim that it causes autism was true, we would have a lot more people with autism going around. simply doesn’t make any sense not to vaccinate.
As a baby I developed Whooping Cough; the cause was put down to the vaccine and I had no others. At the time there was no MMR and obviously none of the later vaccines. I suffered from most of the typical childhood illnesses: measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox. My sister in law contracted polio and suffers to this day. This led me to have all 7 of my children vaccinated against everything available.
My 13 year old son was born 6 weeks early weighing less than a kilo and he handled the standard vaccination schedule without incident. None of my children have suffered any ill effects whatsoever and, as they have become parents, vaccinated their children, who, in turn, have shown no ill effects.
My youngest son was actually part of a trial for a new vaccine for MMR so I have some understanding of the meticulous testing that goes into these vaccines being put into general use.
Why would the medical profession endorse and actively promote something they knew would bring great harm? Aren’t they hard pressed enough without creating more work for themselves? Yes, some children react badly to vaccinations, but parents are well informed of what to look for and how to react if it happens. No one can expect something to suit everyone. Some people react badly to pollen, shellfish, nuts and even milk. Should we stop everyone having these things to eliminate the risk?
I’m not saying some parents haven’t experienced their children showing signs of conditions after having them vaccinated, but it’s impossible to say that they wouldn’t have shown those exact same signs, and developed those exact same conditions, if they had never been vaccinated. It’s a question that we just can’t answer. It’s human instinct to find a reason for something that’s happened and make connections that just aren’t there.
My only other point is: how many other drugs don’t get passed and how many are withdrawn from use because studies and side effects have proved they’re harmful? If all this were true, why would some drugs pass and others not?
Doctors attacking people is not a solution to anything. I hope no one pays that pediatrician for anything, what a horrific attitude.
As has been stated, vaccines are not 100%, so there is no guarantee that a vaccinated child would have survived either.
Also, I kind of doubt an average suburbanite would ever run into such diseases. Oh wait, we have this gigantic problem called illegal immigration, where we have literally no idea how many completely unimmunized people stream into our country every day. I wonder if this might be the gigantic cause of our problems, not people who choose to actually read the ingredients of something they inject into their infant.
I don’t trust scientists, doctors, or the like. Not because most of them are not good honest hard working people, I’ve worked in hospitals, I’ve yet to meet anyone who honestly did not want to help people. I have never met anyone who I thought ever wanted to harm someone on purpose.
However, time and again modern science has come up with some new theory, or some new food, drug, protein, etc to eat, stop eating, never eat, etc, and taken itself like it was the final absolute, only to do a 180 a few years later.
I am a 100% healthy person, I’ve zero need to get a flu shot. Hell, I wasn’t even required to when I worked at the hospital, even though I was required to get a dozen or so other needles poked and prodded into me for all sorts of other things.
So medicine is not a final book, but a work in progress. And everyone practicing medicine is not educated on the latest, greatest bleeding edge medicine discoveries. Instead most of them are mostly finished when they finally finish their education and start practicing full time. Because let’s face it, someone working some insane 12+ hour a day schedule probably simply cannot keep up with absolutely everything, and frankly they really don’t need to.
So while yes, in general medicine and science lead us all in the correct direction, it is not a straight line, and they’ve severely screwed up more than a few times. Eugenics anyone?
So if it is a life an death situation, then yes, I am going to go to the nearest hospital, have them stabilize me and then move me to a hospital I trust. If it is something that is less than that, everyone should dig in, ask questions, and be 100% sure of what they are doing before accidentally screwing up and killing their children. Because vaccines have killed people directly. Yes, it is thankfully extremely rare. But science does not get better by people keeping their opinions to themselves.
“As has been stated, vaccines are not 100%, so there is no guarantee that a vaccinated child would have survived either”
Right, so only most of them died needlessly instead of all of them… well, not counting how they never would have had the opportunity to get the disease if everyone were vaccinated.
“However, time and again modern science has come up with some new theory, or some new food, drug, protein, etc to eat, stop eating, never eat, etc, and taken itself like it was the final absolute, only to do a 180 a few years later.”
Only relevant if we’re taking about some “new theory”. We aren’t. Nobody is saying to jump on every new bandwagon that comes along, but we’re taking about vaccines which have been around for decades.
“But science does not get better by people keeping their opinions to themselves.”
It doesn’t get better by people spouting their opinions either. It gets better when people do science. So if you care enough about it, go get a degree in medical research and do the studies yourself. But don’t try to scare people with the whole “science can be wrong” narrative without actually having something concrete to back it up with. Nobody should listen to you about any of this… or me, for that matter. They SHOULD listen to their doctors, the only ones actually qualified to give such advise and that have actually taken an oath to do no harm.
(Oh, and if you only trust doctors who have the same opinions as you, that isn’t listening to a doctor it is just another way to listen to yourself. )
“Also, I kind of doubt an average suburbanite would ever run into such diseases.”
Like the ones in Southern California, or those outbreaks that seem to happen in private schools?
The measles outbreak in San Diego a few years ago were all American, living in good ol’ suburbia and taking trips to Europe: Measles Outbreak in a Highly Vaccinated Population, San Diego, 2008: Role of the Intentionally Undervaccinated.
Also, much of the latest measles outbreak in Ohio are from the Amish. Do you consider them as “illegal immigrants”?
By the way, Mexico has a higher vaccination rate than the USA (from that page):
Country 2009 2010 2011 2012
Mexico 96 95 98 99
USA 90 92 92 92
This is BS. I’ve seen it firsthand. My son was a normally developing little boy with normal speech and typical habits for a child in his developmental stage. The day after receiving his MMR vaccination, he was completely different. He didn’t speak again for nearly two years. I work in healthcare. I appreciate my son is alive because of vaccinations. I do not appreciate crap like this. There is a connection. It may not be in the generalized masses, but I strongly believe the MMR vaccination triggered whatever genetic predisposition my son had for the disease. I believe children should be further along in their development before receiving vaccinations. I will not be convinced otherwise.
Anonymous,
” I will not be convinced otherwise.”
That is a pretty bodacious claim. A claim of complete certitude. A claim of fact.
I am not convinced that you will not be convinced. Prove it.
I will not be convinced otherwise.
With the greatest respect for your son’s condition, why not?
This is a comprehensive takedown of the anti-vaxxers’ argument from a logical, scientific point of view, Jennifer.
One small but perhaps significant point: repeating the myths in the article may actually cause more people to suspect vaccinations.
It turns out that readers have poor recall of what they read, and when they read statements, even those labelled as myths, they misremember them as being true, days later.
This article gives the gist:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/03/AR2007090300933_pf.html
“The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently issued a flier to combat myths about the flu vaccine. It recited various commonly held views and labeled them either “true” or “false.” Among those identified as false were statements such as “The side effects are worse than the flu” and “Only older people need flu vaccine.
When University of Michigan social psychologist Norbert Schwarz had volunteers read the CDC flier, however, he found that within 30 minutes, older people misremembered 28 percent of the false statements as true. Three days later, they remembered 40 percent of the myths as factual.”
So the recommendation for anyone debunking myths is not to mention the myth itself. Instead focus on the truth, the “anti-myth”
So instead of “Myth: measles is not a deadly disease”, say “Measles kills.”….you get the drift.
Wow! Good info
Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps cases of autism and other disorders that are buzzwords of the moment are not on the rise at all, but that there weren’t names for these things until recently, and we have simply been getting better at identifying and diagnosing? The DSM (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), published by the American Psychiatric Association is constantly being updated as our understanding of the mind advances. Psychology is a young science; it wasn’t that long ago that we just threw all the people who couldn’t quite function normally into the “loony bin” and called them all crazy.
Additionally: we are all exposed to toxic substances on a daily basis, many of which are naturally occurring. Just because something was manufactured doesn’t make it evil, and just because something is natural doesn’t make it safe. We have been genetically engineering crops through selection since we began farming 10,000 years ago.
Science isn’t the enemy. Ignorance is. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course, but as someone said earlier: make sure you do your research. Don’t take what anyone has to say as truth, from either side of any debate, without looking into it for yourself. Be sure to read evidence from both sides before drawing a conclusion.
So true Dina, in fact the autism spectrum was expanded recently, which would possibly be why it appears that more children are being diagnosed as autistic.
Hello,
I’m for vaccination, and just wanted to state my personal experiences and views on it, since I can’t really claim to have indepth knowledge of exactly how all of them work.
I’m 23 years old, male, live in Norway, and almost everyone here get vaccinated for a host of diseases, me and my younger brother included. Usually this happens through school, thanks to our rather amazing healthcare, or if we want to visit certain countries, then we have to take extra vaccinations against diseases more common there, malaria for instance. And in certain jobs, (like in the military,) vaccinations are NOT optional. This to prevent any disasterous outbreaks of, well, anything.
My point here is that I hardly know of anyone here having had these diseases in any real form in my lifetime, and with what I know of history and how common many of these diseases where before, or indeed are now among people without the vaccines, I’ll put my money on most of the vaccinations doing what they say they do.
As for autism… well, not buying it. Too little is actually known about what causes it, and people had autism long before vaccinations. I would hardly credit a “relatively new” medicine for that.
One thing about “science” that I remember most is what both my chem lab and physics lab professors both said in their introductory comments ‘whatever it is you want prove, you can. It all depends on how you manipulate the parameters’. I grew up in a time when the Salk polio vaccine had just been approved for use. There were few others. My family had what they called ‘infection parties’ if one child became sick the community had parties to infect all the children. I had every disease known except scarlet fever that didnt at the time have a vaccine. I was exposed to scarlet fever. I had measles, mumps chiicken pox several times a year. When I grew up I never had any diseases.
I am neither pro nor anti-vaccine. I believe it is personal. There is way to much interference in personal lives the way it is. All my children were vaccinated, all my grandchildren have been as well as greatgrandchildren.
I read several comments and one in particular I agree with. More than anything else wrong in this country is how the consumer has blindly followed the lead of ‘big ag’ and ‘big chem’. Because of them the natural flura that our bodies need to build natural immunities are sanitized out leaving defenseless bodies. Sterilyzed food, everything is processed. Put the bacteria back in the foods we eat, the dirt we touch and our amazing bodies produce fantastic antibodies. Coupled with natural remedies that DO work on just about anything. But wait that would mean thousands would lose jobs in the chem factories. Thousands may lose jobs in med professions. But then whose misfortune would you CAPITALIZE on?? Afterall that IS the American way!!
wayneemiller,
“I am neither pro nor anti-vaccine.”
Well, good. Then we can expect fair and thoughtful comments.
“I read several comments and one in particular I agree with. More than anything else wrong in this country is how the consumer has blindly followed the lead of ‘big ag’ and ‘big chem’. Because of them the natural flura that our bodies need to build natural immunities are sanitized out leaving defenseless bodies. Sterilyzed food, everything is processed. Put the bacteria back in the foods we eat, the dirt we touch and our amazing bodies produce fantastic antibodies. Coupled with natural remedies that DO work on just about anything. But wait that would mean thousands would lose jobs in the chem factories. Thousands may lose jobs in med professions. But then whose misfortune would you CAPITALIZE on?? Afterall that IS the American way!!”
Whew! For a moment I thought maybe were going to get an anti-vax comment.
Don’t worry about the jobs lost in the “chem factories,” since there will be many more jobs in the “chem factories” needed to make the medicines to treat the return of the epidemics. THEN we would have misfortune to capitalize on.
As a progressive and educated chiropractor, I am personally offended by the pediatrician’s offhanded comment about taking your dying child to seek chiro care. Obviously, in this day and age we would refer a dying child to seek appropriate care. You don’t know why the parent chose not to vaccinate, perhaps they felt their child was too immune comprised to handle all the shots at that time. It doesn’t mean they don’t trust the medical profession at all to do what they do best, save lives. It may also mean they would trust a chiropractor to do what we do best, i.e. prevent injuries and possible disease. I do believe in having overall optimal health is the best way to prevent any disease. But that is not the mentality of the average American. That’s why they need vaccines! Of course the vaccine debate is a hot issue and the original post is quick to claim vaccines are safe, don’t cause autism, etc. But the truth is you can’t prove that by reading a few articles. We don’t know what the cause of autism is currently. There are plenty of theories and personally, as someone who also works extensively in the field, I believe there is something to the toxin theories. Especially the research showing vaccines received by pregnant women. There is also a genetic component, but you can’t deny the symptoms of autism are similar to mercury poisoning. Vaccination is recommended for herd immunity and there will always be side effects. The question becomes if the risks outweigh the benefits for the individual or mankind as a whole.
I mean if the benefits outweigh the risks 😉
I am struggling to believe you are educated about immunology, virology, the scientific method, infectious diseases… There are no levels of any ingredient in a vaccine that reaches toxic levels. None.
You are a chiropractor – you do not work extensively in the fields of scientific research into genetics, epidemiology or any other medical field that is actually trying to determine the causes of autism.
Please present the research regarding vaccines given to pregnant women.
You are compounding your ignorance by claiming the indicators of autism are similar to mecury poisoning – which is irrelevant anyway becuase there is only a mercury compound ( there is a vast difference between methyl and ethol ) in some vaccines and none on the childhood schedule. Now I can add chemistry to the list of things you demonstrate little to knowledge of.
If your comment is an example of the information you provide to parents you are part of the problem not part of the solution.
I am from Belgium. We have excellent (public) health care here. A vast majority of kids get vaccinated in their early years, and some vaccines (like Tetanus) get repeated throughout their school years, by the government agency that watches the kids’ health in school.
I simply cannot understand why anyone would not vaccinate their children. The concept alone sounds so alien to me, more like an internet hoax than like something people actually do.
It sounds more like lashing out to a world you don’t understand, rather than a choice based on any reason.
There are better ways to lash out than endangering the health of your kids, I think.