In light of recent outbreaks of measles and other vaccine preventable illnesses, and the refusal of anti-vaccination advocates to acknowledge the problem, I thought it was past time for this post.
Dear parents,
You are being lied to. The people who claim to be acting in the best interests of your children are putting their health and even lives at risk.
They say that measles isn’t a deadly disease.
But it is.
They say that chickenpox isn’t that big of a deal.
But it can be.
They say that the flu isn’t dangerous.
But it is.
They say that whooping cough isn’t so bad for kids to get.
But it is.
They say that vaccines aren’t that effective at preventing disease.
But 3 million children’s lives are saved every year by vaccination, and 2 million die every year from vaccine-preventable illnesses.
They say that “natural infection” is better than vaccination.
But they’re wrong.
They say that vaccines haven’t been rigorously tested for safety.
But vaccines are subjected to a higher level of scrutiny than any other medicine. For example, this study tested the safety and effectiveness of the pneumococcal vaccine in more than 37,868 children.
They will say that doctors won’t admit there are any side effects to vaccines.
But the side effects are well known, and except in very rare cases quite mild.
They say that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
It doesn’t. (The question of whether vaccines cause autism has been investigated in study after study, and they all show overwhelming evidence that they don’t.)
They say that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism.
It doesn’t, and it hasn’t been in most vaccines since 2001 anyway.
They say that the aluminum in vaccines (an adjuvant, or component of the vaccine designed to enhance the body’s immune response) is harmful to children.
But children consume more aluminum in natural breast milk than they do in vaccines, and far higher levels of aluminum are needed to cause harm.
They say that the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (and/or the “vaccine court”) proves that vaccines are harmful.
It doesn’t.
They say that the normal vaccine schedule is too difficult for a child’s immune system to cope with.
It isn’t.
They say that if other people’s children are vaccinated, there’s no need for their children to get vaccinated.
This is one of the most despicable arguments I’ve ever heard. First of all, vaccines aren’t always 100% effective, so it is possible for a vaccinated child to still become infected if exposed to a disease. Worse, there are some people who can’t receive vaccinations, because they are immune deficient, or because they are allergic to some component. Those people depend upon herd immunity to protect them. People who choose not to vaccinate their children against infectious diseases are putting not only their own children at risk, but also other people’s children.
They say that ‘natural’, ‘alternative’ remedies are better than science-based medicine.
They aren’t.
The truth is that vaccines are one of our greatest public health achievements, and one of the most important things you can do to protect your child.
I can predict exactly the sort of response I will be getting from the anti-vaccine activists. Because they can’t argue effectively against the overwhelming scientific evidence about vaccines, they will say that I work for Big Pharma. (I don’t and never have). They will say that I’m not a scientist (I am), and that I’m an “Agent 666” (I don’t know what that is, but I’m pretty sure that I’m not one).
None of these things are true, but they are the reflexive response by the anti-vaccine activists because they have no facts to back up their position. On some level, deep down, they must understand this, and are afraid of the implications, so they attack the messenger.
Why are they lying to you? Some are doing it for profit, trying to sell their alternative remedies by making you afraid of science-based medicine. I’m sure that many others within the anti-vaccine movement have genuinely good intentions, and do honestly believe that vaccines are harmful. But as a certain astrophysicist recently said “The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it”. In the case of vaccine truthers, this is not a good thing. Good intentions will not prevent microbes from infecting and harming people, and the message that vaccines are dangerous is having dire consequences. There are outbreaks of vaccine-preventable illnesses now throughout the United States because of unvaccinated children.
In only one respect is my message the same as the anti-vaccine activists: Educate yourself. But while they mean “Read all these websites that support our position”, I suggest you should learn what the scientific community says. Learn how the immune system works. Go read about the history of disease before vaccines, and talk to older people who grew up when polio, measles, and other diseases couldn’t be prevented. Go read about how vaccines are developed, and how they work. Read about Andrew Wakefield, and how his paper that claimed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism has been withdrawn, and his medical license has been revoked. Read the numerous, huge studies that have explicitly examined whether autism is caused by the vaccine…and found nothing. (While you’re at it, read about the ongoing research to determine what IS the cause—or causes —of autism, which is not helped by people continuing to insist that vaccines cause it).
That may seem like a lot of work, and scientific papers can seem intimidating to read. But reading scientific articles is a skill that can be mastered. Here’s a great resource for evaluating medical information on the internet, and I wrote a guide for non-scientists on how to read and understand the scientific literature. You owe it to your children, and to yourself, to thoroughly investigate the issue. Don’t rely on what some stranger on the internet says (not even me!). Read the scientific studies that I linked to in this post for yourself, and talk to your pediatricians. Despite what the anti-vaccine community is telling you, you don’t need to be afraid of the vaccines. You should instead be afraid of what happens without them.
Edited to add: This video is an outstanding summary of many of these issues. I encourage you to watch it.
“Humans try to make sense of the world by seeing patterns. When they see a disease or condition that tends to appear around the time a child is a year or so old, as autism does, and that is also the age that kids get particular shots, they want to put those things together. Parents watch kids more carefully after they get shots. Sometimes they pick up on symptoms then. Just because two things happen at the same time doesn’t mean that one caused the other. This is why we need careful scientific studies.”
Note: For people coming via a direct link, please also feel free to participate in a follow-up discussion
here.
1/13/15: Edited to update broken hyperlinks. If you find any additional broken links, please don’t hesitate to let me know. –JR
4/19/16: Edited again to update more broken hyperlinks. If you find more, keep letting us know and we’ll keep fixing them. –CM
Violent metaphors 
Please read these to nuance this assumption of safety and safe-levels:
Aluminium neurotoxicity: neurobehavioural and oxidative aspects.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19568732
http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/neurotoxic.html
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview
Many are minimizing the toxicity of Aluminiumn (amongst other contaminating factors)…a common argument is the “acceptable dosage” …when in fact metals (or other risk factors) accumulate in the body or stress the body continuously without causing “instant death” or symptoms. They thus appear “safe”, but correct understanding of functional physiology and neurology and human develoment point usually to trouble in essential parameters of health (ex: sleep/wake cycle). These “minors symptoms” (nonetheless risk factors in disease development) are usually used for justification of mild effects on human physiology and safety instead of being used as an argument for the Precautionary Principle, which is a sound scientific approach to health prvention. This phenomenon happens in studies interpretations already becauce of a too narrow point of view and analysis of data, with lack of functionnal understanding of human health in general.
However, this phenomenon also appears when so-called “Safe-levels” are chosen. Usually (when reaserched properly) I observed that they are determined by governments with influence form industry and lobbys who have a commercial interest in the said product, in that case aluminium. So safe-levels and data needs to be inspected twice or thrice before being judged valid…or neutral…as my experience validates not data is neutral….which makes things complicated.
As for Aluminium, we can also reasonably suppose (because mothers transmit immune defense through breastmilk) that they can accumulate to the point of being transmitted through breast milk (as a protection mechanism for the next generation??). Then it would be worrisome and not a justification of Aluminium being safe in vaccines as you mentionned.
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I won’t come back to this page for debate. But if you read this, please make sure to ask yourself the right questions as I was encouraged to do so before. You seem intelligent and open-minded enough to be interested in other cultures…Oriental Philosophy/Spirituality might also interest you and provide perspective (I recommande Fritjof Capra’s Tao of Physics on parallels with quantum physics and Oriental mysticism). My goal is to try and expend your questioning…
What if what I thought was true was not? What if what I think is neutral science was in fact commercially biased science? If so, do I think it would be easy to find the truth? It would change a great deal the interpretation of the same data, would’nt it…so might it not be important to investigate that possibilty further as well?
Am I seeking the neutral Truth despite how shocking it can be? Am I always questioning my latest model of reality like science requires to question our lateste scientific model? Or am I looking for information justifying my own point of view to avoid that shock?
These are questions I want to keep in mind forever… Good luck! 🙂
If you write an article and title it “Dear parents, you are being lied to” and start off by saying that the people who are lying to you are putting your child’s very life at risk, you aren’t trying to convince people to vaccinate, you are trying to stir up hate, anger and fear so that the MOB will fight for big brother to step in and force the vaccines.
She’s fighting fire with fire.
I’m going to repost this to my own blog, if that’s okay. 🙂 (http://www.mockingmommy.com)
Please feel free!
Great article, I like this.
When my son was young there was a lot of controversy about the MMR vaccine and my wife and I were nervous about giving it to him at 18 months old so we asked the advice of my father. He had been an immunologist for many years and was nearly 60 years old at that time. His recommendation was simple and direct. He remembered the days before these vaccines were available and stated in no uncertain terms that it was important to get our son vaccinated. His only concern was the very young age at which the doctors were recommending he be vaccinated. He advised that two and a half was the best age as it was sufficiently young enough to be long before the start of nursery school, but old enough that the immune system is well developed.
We followed his advice. During the following year we received many letters and calls from our doctors calling us irresponsible and bad parents, but we stuck to the recommendations of my father. Just 2 months before our son was finally vaccinated the MMR vaccine was withdrawn due to safety concerns and replaced with MMR2.
I am glad we waited. Our son was vaccinated and suffered no ill effects, the same was true for our daughter 3 years later. Both times the doctors called us irresponsible for waiting until two and a half, but as I believe an immunologist with many years experience and study is more qualified to give good advice.
My children are now adults and I am happy with our decision. I truly believe that immunisation is vital for the many diseases that used to kill and maim millions of children every year. It is amazing to me that so many people would risk their children catching some of these diseases. As a child I met children that had lost their hearing because of measles. Why risk so much on such flimsy ‘evidence’.
The only thing that still concerns me is the use of mercury in vaccines. I think that should be stopped as that is a known poison that is there purely to extend the shelf life and reduce the cost of the vaccines. I would happily pay to get vaccines without mercury in them, but that was not an option.
Even with my concerns the alternative was even more worrying and the thought of one of my children catching any of these preventable illnesses was something I had to avoid. The risks of not taking the vaccines, for me, seemed much higher than the risks of taking them.
I work in the health industry and I congratulate you on your smart and informed decision. The most important issues regarding immunisation are the ”how” and ”when”. You made an informed choice, and that is the best thing you could have done. The MMR vaccine is given at the age of two in a lot of countries as it is seen as a vital age for that and some other vaccines. The attitude towards the ”when” differs from place to place.
We should also stress the ”how”. That the child should be in perfect health and rested when receiving the vaccination, no runny noses, sore throats, fever, rash,…Every doctor should make that a rule, but I know that they aren’t doing so.
All vaccinations are different, and almost every child has a reaction after measles vaccination, as they will go through the thing and should be monitored. They should stay at home for a couple of days, while the reaction to the vaccination can come sometimes even with a 6-8 month delay. After that, you are pretty much safe.
I’m more afraid of the lying, thieving pharmaceutical companies than I am of the diseases!
They just have zero credibility!
I assume everything they say is lies and everything they produce is dangerous!
Yeah, those Vioxx lies didn’t help matter any!
Reblogged this on Trilingual issues and joys and commented:
This is so important. Living in a vaccine-sceptical neighbourhood, I totally see the need to spread the word here.
I would kindly ask you to read my comment about the very process of vaccination and just how important it is to pay attention to details to avoid putting your child in danger. Where there is scepticism, there should be attention to detail. I did vaccinate, but made sure I did it properly and that I looked at the whole picture, not just the vaccination.
Thanks!
As someone from the health sector, I vaccinated my children cautiously. BUT, the WAY you do it is extremely important as well, and should be taken seriously. Give the details serious thought and monitor your childs behaviour and activity levels before and after.
To clear a few things out for all the concerned parents, but about the very process of the vaccination. And this is something than almost no one thinks about, and they should, especially with babies and small children.
When having a schedule to have them vaccinated the child should:
1) Be perfectly healthy. No cough, no runny nose, no skin outbreaks or rashes, no nothing. It is your duty as a parent to make sure your kid is healty, but smaller children should NOT be vaccinated when their immunity is already under attack in any way, shape or form, and EVERY DOCTOR who is serious about the issue should share your concern. This one is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, your child should not receive any vaccination if it is being treated for any kind of disease at the moment or is sick, feeling sick, too tired….
Make SURE your doctor knows if you are vaccinating a child who is on a more permanent therapy, doesn’t matter if they tell you it’s supposed to be safe. Better safe than sorry.
2) Make sure they had a good night sleep and are in a good mood, or at least stabile mood. The human body takes stress seriously and is a form of attack on the system. Kids don’t have the ability to reason stress out yet, and the very process of vaccination is stressfull enough. If there was a serious trauma, shock or extreme stress to the body&mind of the young one’s, wait a little. Also, make sure that your child doesn’t have a big game or a demanding activity which could leave them exausted the day before the vaccination.
3) Plan ahead and think smart. Your child is probably going to have a reaction to the vaccination, be it a small reaction or a full blown fever. NO, kids should not eat really sugary foods or a lot of dairy a couple of days before, and a couple of days after the vaccination. One popsicle right after is fine, but try to control the nutrition before and after as it can seriously reduce the inflamation or feeling sick, sugar is an immunity killer. Dairy (except plain nonsugary yoghurt), white bread and starchy foods actually kind of feed the fever. If you can, make it a more permanent choice as it is also good for their health. If you are breastfeeding, watch your nutrition.
4) If you can, have the vaccinations done one by one, not in a coctail mix. One for all is NOT always a good thing, especially when small children are involved. Check the manufacturers of the vaccination if you can, make it a choice as there ARE ( and I strongly stand by this one) the not-so-good and better vaccinations out there, if you talk to people a little, you CAN be informed and also find out where they use a vaccination from a certain manufacturer.
5) Give kids time for their bodies to properly adapt and digest, try to see if you can stretch the period in between two vaccinations, if you can. Children are much more in tune with their minds and stress DOES make a huge difference for them.
6) Crosscontamination if you have more kids of different ages and different vaccination programs is ALWAYS possible. And no, the vaccine is never a guarantee, but it lowers the percentage a LOT.
And one thing, I do not advocate anyone getting the flu-shot. In my opinion. I didn’t get one, my family didn’t get one, my children also didn’t get one, and we do travel a lot. And they are not going to get one, not this year or the next, and I will not advocate it in any case.
Final thought, your health is about prevention, a positive mind, activity,good sleep and a full nutrition, hygiene and being carefull. And knowing how to successfully deal with stress, that is a big one today. Make sure you pass those on to your children.
klinki, I love the way you think on this subject. I’ve read most, if not all your posts, and I am on exactly the same page with you. When the chicken pox vaccine first came out, I wanted my children to get the disease old fashioned way, like I did, but they didn’t, so I gave in and did the vaccine when they were teens. My other kids got it at younger ages b/c it was required by their school.
I very much agree with your #4. My last baby got one shot at time initially and then 2 at a time afterwards since she’d had not reaction to the first round. She’s the only one of my children who had no reactions whatsoever. No fever, rash, swelling, etc.
I think that the cocktail shots were designed for convenience and that they are not in the best interest of good health.
My children are all fully vaccinated, but we did it slowly and on a delayed schedule. I NEVER allow them to be given the “new” shot and we wait to see if it stays on the market, gets revised, etc. My children are not to be experimented on!
Noone in my home takes the flu shot and, yes, occasionally one of us gets the flu, but we’ve never had to go to a doctor with it. We are able to treat it at home.
I’m sick and tired of the culture of fear that we live in:
fear that we’ll get sick
fear that we’ll get injured.
We live in a day and age where illnesses and injuries can be treated better than ever before . . . and yet we are all running scared!
Who has time for that!
If you are actively involved in the health sector, as in you work in a place where you come into contact with patients, even if you are simply a receptionist in a doctor’s office, you are required to get a flu shot every year, at least where I live. My husband does nothing more than transport people in wheelchairs to and from the doctor or wherever they need to go and he is required to get a flu shot every year or lose his job. A friend who is an fireman/EMT is also in that position, required flu shot every year, also anyone who works in a hospital, regardless of position. My MIL worked for many years as an RN in the Emergency Department and now, as she’s gotten older and closer to retirement she works in a private radiology lab, but still needs to get a flu shot every year just the same or lose her job. I generally get my flu shot in October or November, my 10 year old also gets his- last year we had a lapse in our health insurance because my husband was laid off for six months due to a medical issue and we could not afford the premiums, so my son and I both missed out flu shots while my husband got his upon his return to work. We have never been as sick as we were over this past Winter, particularly my son, who is rarely sick or absent from school, he has missed a full two weeks of school (cumulatively) and I have been sick where I have had to stay in bed for 5-7 days, four or five times this year alone. In ten years of flu shots with none of us getting the flu or serious cold, one year we don’t get them and we are much sicker than usual with no other lifestyle changes. I’m thinking that yearly flu shot is a good thing. Luckily all vaccinations, even for adults, don’t cost us anything (not even a copay) out of pocket so yes, we get them and I won’t skip again even if I have to pay out of pocket- my doctor only charges $35 for the shot, which is less than a copay if I had to go for a regular visit.
Look me up in about 10 years and let us compare your health to mine, okay? I’ve never had a flu shot in my LIFE and I am pushing 60 and I do NOT get the flu. The reason you got the flu, is because your immune system is shot from all the vaccines. Why can’t people wrap their head around the fact that by getting vaccines, you are killing your immune system? It’s like taking a laxative every day to poop, what happens when you don’t take it? Your bowels are so lazy they can’t function on their own. And another reason you get sick, is because they are spreading this crap with the flu mist which is a LIVE virus and I know this for a fact. Actually, they all shed, IMO because how can a “killed” virus work and in fact, they have been proven to NOT work. Most people I know who have had the flu shot, get the flu, including my husband who took it one time, and refuses another. People get cancer because their immune systems fail…your immune system is what protects you and 80% of the immune system is in your guts. You trust me, one day all these little jabs will catch up with you and your family. When I worked in Nursing homes or whatever, they did NOT force us to take these things and guess what, I never got sick with anything, because my immune system worked properly. Do people understand that’s why GOD gave us an immune system? HE knows what he’s doing, unlike people.
I don’t believe in a creator god the way you seem to. If there were a god who had the ability to affect our lives in a positive or negative way, why would he choose to allow us to become ill at all? Why are we not living in a utopian paradise? If a god exists who has the ability to improve our lives for the better and doesn’t, lets us live the way we do, killing each other, hating each other, allowing horrid natural disasters to kill many thousands of people the god is supposed to love, homelessness, particularly homeless children, pollution, illness, pain and death- I don’t want anything to do with a god like that, you can keep that god of yours. For a god, it’s petty, imho. Back on topic, aside from this Winter’s ills, I am an otherwise healthy woman in my mid 40s, I have never been seriously ill in my life (knock wood). I attribute that good health to eating a healthy diet since childhood, practicing good physical and oral hygiene, having a yoga practice and also a meditation practice. I also go to my doctor for preventative screenings, including vaccinations I may need- I think aside from the flu shots, in the last 20 years I believe I got one Tetanus booster after a minor injury involving a rusted object of some kind. I had my childhood vaccinations without issue, though I had chicken pox as a child as they did not have a vaccine for that then. I don’t see how vaccinations have harmed me, anyone I know, children or adults who have been vaccinated as children and currently get vaccinated (flu shot). No parent I know has ever reported an adverse reaction from a vaccination- they mostly just say they feel bad that their child doesn’t like the actual shots; my son has never had any difficulty with the needles. I look at the numbers, and it seems to me that with the amount of children and adults who are vaccinated, those who experience serious harm from a vaccine, that can be proven to have been caused by the vaccine, is very small compared to the number of people who have been protected from horrible illnesses thanks to vaccines. You can feel any way you want about it- until someone reputable produces hard evidence that vaccines do cause harm I will continue to vaccinate my child and myself and recommend that others vaccinate as well to keep these diseases we have worked so hard to eradicate through vaccination and to preserve the herd immunity for those who truly can’t get vaccinated due to weakened immune systems. Peace.
I work in Europe, to help clear a few missunderstandings. Yes, I come in contact with patients regularely and not all countries have the same requirements for having shots, the flu shot is optional, while some others aren’t.
Many years ago I belonged to a group of moms with new babies. One of the mothers was an MD who was a practicing holistic practioner and homeopathic proponent. She did not have her son vaccinated and was adamantly against vaccines. When her son was about 18 months old, he somehow became infected with a dangerous strain of meningitis. In the hours before she took him to the hospital for (the hated alopathic) treatment, she convinced one of the other mothers in the group to “loan” her the birth certificate and vaccination record of that other mom’s son of the same age. Isn’t that ironic? And somewhat disturbing?
It is. That was an unresponsible mother. There should always be a balance, and serious alternative practitioners should always take modern medicine into consideration. When the two work together, miracles happen, at least from my point of view.
Fever can cause serious brain damage to kids, and sideeffects of the vaccinations can be fever, or better said, cause fever. That’s why it is extremely important for the child to be perfectly healthy when they receive it. As from the health sector, I cannot stress enough the importance of the ”how” , when vaccinating. And that all vacinations really arent the same. I also hope that most parents will not have to see the polio cases I’ve seen.
I’ve vaccinated my children, and it was a coctail vaccination only once. No vaccination comes without sideeffects or is perfectly safe, but the battle of the percentages shows that it lowers the possibilty of getting a disease or having lifelong consequences, in your childs favor. Some reaction to the vaccination is almost certain, is to be expected and treated with care.
However, I did not get the flu shot. My children did not get the flu shot, and will not receive it any time soon. And I will not advocate it, my own doctor didn’t get one, the pharmacists I know didn’t get one and neither have their children.
It’s a extremely polarized subject so it’s very hard to debate with a cool head. People seem to take their opinions too seriously. Maybe you are right, maybe your have some reason in the motivation for your concern. The problem is you got caught in the inflamed debate on vaccines and your arguments show it. There are several of them with serious scientific and logical flaws. Your arguments are reductionist and don’t take into account the incredible complexity and unkonwn factors involved in vaccines. Look closely at the reasearch of Peter Aaby for example and you will see that things aren’t so black and white and there are many many things we (science) are completely ignorant about vaccines. For example of how complicate this might get I’ll give you two articles by the same author with “pro” and “anti” arguments on the same vaccine:http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/… vaccine may increase mortality) and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu… (measles vaccine may and positive non-specific effects). Aside from that you are taking an anti-natural medicine stance and that is a prejudice, not science.
Your links don’t link to anything. Why would you criticize the author that actually took the time to compile many legitimate references into one place when you yourself provide null links?
Oh sorry, my bad. Look up the work of Peter Aaby and his team at http://www.bandim.org/Research.aspx .
So basically you’re cherry-picking information to suit your prejudices. This is not a scientific approach, it is an opinion, informed one sure, but still highly biased. Sure you have a point, there are other extremists out there so there is danger. But being extremist at the other point doesn’t help people to make informed decisions.
<> What is meant but this kind of claim, as you surely know, is that the natural infection gives long lasting immunity, whereas the vaccine only protects during the childhood period. I think vaccines are usually a good idea, for most people can’t take proper care of their kids when they are ill because of their jobs or whatever. So as a mass strategy is ok I guess. But I’m happy to be able not to give it to my kids, because I know in my case I can handle a case of measles in my home so it makes no sense risking the side-effects. That doesn’t make me a anti-vaccine campaigner, I’m not. Just asking for some respect and cool head as an antidote to a messy polarized discussion wich leads nowhere.
Polio, for example, has nothing to do with someone’s ability to take care of their children. It can happen. Flu is another thing, and that’s why it is irresponsible to claim that all vaccinations are good for you. And they are not all the same, there ARE better vaccinations then ”others”. It is also not advisable to use ”coctail” vaccinations if possible, and to take a onebyone approach. People who seem to be concerned about their children generally don’t really get involved as they should.
On the other hand, it is also quite irresponsible to claim that natural medicines don’t help at all, that the state of one’s mind and current emotions don’t play a part as neuropsychology has already proven that all is intertwined. Good nutrition, a good sleep, listening to one’s body.. The best scenario develops when alternative and mainstream medicine join hands and work together, as it should be the doctors goal for you to see them less and to use less medicine. It really should be about resolving the problem and looking from different perspectives…
Fever is something that comes after a vaccination and it can signal or cause serious damage. Small temperature should never be forcefully lowered, as the body has to develop a response. However, higher temperatures should be lowered ASAP. And the old methods do apply…
One thing learned from Denmark, a country where they are almost never down with a cold or a flu. Their newborns, babies, children sleep outside to develop immunity and get used to fresh air. In smaller towns you can find baby strollers in front of coffee shops or smaller stores with children in them. And they are not overdressed, the sense of community makes sure that all children are watched and it is not seen as bad parenting.
Interesting comment, thank you. I would argue nonetheless that, although it is difficult to evaluate if parents can take care of their children, appropriate care can avoid the disease taking its worse effects. Of course there can be lots of arguments around what is appropriate care. The bottom line is: vaccination should still be a personal choice, not a state-imposed action. Because there are negatives effects of vaccines along with the good ones. Peter Aaby has some amazing work on this. Check it here http://www.bandim.org/Research.aspx
People..People..People…..Why is it that when one side expresses an opinion the other side slices and dices it? I was born in 1957. I was one of the children that got the sugar cube vaccine to prevent polio. I was also one of the children that experienced having chicken pox, measles, mumps and rubella. I can tell you that I obviously survived, but was so glad that when my children were born, with the exception of Chicken Pox, there were inoculations. It was no fun getting these severe diseases! While no one I knew died from them, you only have to go find an older cemetery to walk through to find that when small towns were exposed, they lost a large percent of their children to these same illnesses. Yes we now know medically how to better handle when we have these illnesses, but there are still people who die from them and influenza world wide. While it is a personal choice of the parents, I personally feel that they are foolish to put their child (and others) at risk by not having the inoculations. We are exposed so easily to others traveling or visiting from around the world.
In my opinion, influenza and chicken pox do not fall remotely in the same category as polio, rubella and thetanus. There is a difference in neccesity.. It is a big pool of info, as some overprotective parents would even vaccinate their child for a cold, while others take even bigger risks with their children.
After having chicken pox, children develop immunity to those and it goes by without many problems in almost all cases. The flu is something that cannot be pinned down, and I would not get my children vaccinated with that formula. They have a better chance today with catching the flu and recovering (we caught the swine flu in Spain), with their immune system even better, if watched and treated. No other physician or pharmacist I know has gotten a flu shot, or even had their children vaccinated.
The way they are administered is also a big deal. Unfortunately, the chalenges that our children face today are not the same, and the everyday routine has changed a lot. We should alsto take that into consideration, as well as the fact that hygiene had a big impact on all.
Surely you know that many people who have had chicken pox develop shingles as adults?
And many teens who received the chicken pox vaccine as children develop shingles, too. At least in my community there have been dozens of cases of shingles in teenager–all of them immunized against c’pox. Makes you wonder . . .
If our goal is to protect the population such as elder people or those with weaker immune systems than those should immunize against anything they can. I have older parents and my family gets the flu vaccine, not because I can’t fight it off but because I don’t want to lose a parent to complications as a result of flu. This isn’t always a debate about autism.
And if you READ the vaccine inserts, it will tell you these are never to be given to people with compromised immune systems, such as the elderly. Wow, it even says that in the inserts for animal vaccines, and yet I see it done all the time. Yes, let’s kill that immune system off even more by pumping them full of poison. Go figure!
Thank you for supporting my point. To reiterate my point that you support but clearly do not actually get is that I get my family vaccinated to ensure we are not passing disease to those who have weak immune systems. That being those who cannot take a vaccine or maybe those where the vaccine was not effective. Again, it is the right thing to do to protect everyone.
And to call something that has saved millions of lives ‘poison’ shows how little you actually understand. Where did you get your degree? What do you base this on so that you can spread fear and misinformation? All anti-vaxxers like to jump in with 1 liners and crap they heard a playmate say. I am sorry but I choose not to take medical advice from someone who makes most of their money based on their looks or posing naked.
I thought the varicella vaccine was not necessary as well…until my pediatrician, an infectious disease specialist, told me this: “It’s true, it’s often not as serious. In my career, I have only seen two children die from complications. But those two were two too many.” Any child lost to a preventable illness is a tragedy.
I am a DES child, but I still trust that doctors actually CARE and are trying to HELP people. After all, they might have just gone to school for some other thing if they truly didn’t care…
Bull! They may have started out with good hearts, but the “higher ups” brought them to the point of being deceiving and truth be known, they are only believing what they are told…vaccines are good…vaccines are good…vaccines prevent disease…vaccines prevent disease…vaccines are good. There, you are PROGRAMMED! lol
I can’t believe you just said what you said. You go through the whole scoop about how you didn’t have these and had diseases naturally and that you were glad of it, and then tell people they need to jab their children? And I didn’t know all those old graveyard tombstones had the reason of “death” marked on the tombstone. Here lies David who died from measles, or mumps, or whatever. Really? Truth is, I never had the crap either, and I am pushing 60, and I don’t feel the need for drugs or vaccines, because none of them are of God and I don’t believe God wants poison pumped into our bodies. I can see him saying, “oh, I forget to create the immune system Mr. Scientist, I will let you take over from here.” lol Senseless and all for profit only and to keep sickness going because they would never profit if we were all well. Any drug or vaccine you put into your body, will have side effects because they do change the DNA AND cause chemical reactions in your body. Do you people seriously believe that’s all that’s in these things are the actual “said disease?” I suggest you google the ingredients in all of them and then tell me why you put them in you and your children. As to your remark about how everyone is coming back at everyone, that’s how it works. All you do to start online debate is post and opinion and then “sit back and wait.” That’s the way people are geared…they love to prove you wrong even when they are not 100% sure they are even right. lol If everyone here hasn’t researched both sides extensively, then you don’t know what you are talking about. The natural side offers information FREE, they don’t charge me. If I, however, choose to see my Naturopath, she doesn’t make that much money from me at all, because she really WANTS to help, not just make money. If I can beat cancer naturally, I can dang well beat some idiotic named disease they are creating, so they can push a drug!
So let me get this straight. God created us with the ability to think, test and explore this world but if we make something to better our life, we shouldn’t use it.
I can just imagine when I talk to God, as per your argument, he might say “didn’t you Google those ingredients first?”
But God also says to consult him on all things and that you can do nothing without HIM. He gave us the immune system, not to poison with drugs, but to eat healthy, drink plenty of water, get exercise, steer from sugar and processed foods. Do that, there’s no need for vaccines and or drugs. BUT because people are lazy and blinded, they choose to take the easy route, stick out their hand for the little magic pill or their arm for the jab. Tsk, tsk…btw, you don’t MAKE anything, God created ALL things and what people do here today is of Satan, not of GOD. Who was it here, that said something about being called 666 something or other and they said, “whatever that is.” Anyway, shows me that most probably don’t even believe in GOD, because if they did and read the Bible, they’d know what 666 is lol I don’t follow Satan’s children, I follow GOD! This is to moladood!
Actually, a lot of insurance policies now cover “natural” medicine and holistic procedures. For example, our health insurance covers acupuncture, nutritional counselling, therapeutic massage and chiropractic care, and we don’t even have the super duper extra special policy the company offers. Many people are surprised when I tell them that as their insurance has not started offering these same benefits yet. The “natural” medical care is priced out the same as a medical doctor would be, with the same copay. So if I go to a holistic practitioner, s/he gets paid the same as my medical doctor does- don’t fool yourself- holistic and naturopathic medicine is big business, same as big pharma or other western medical practices. Any local supermarket has at least a full aisle of vitamins and supplements, plus an area of non-GMO foods, gluten free, sugar free organic, all natural food and health/beauty products, priced at least double than the non organic counterpart in another area of the market. Big business. I believe if you are unhappy with the western medical care you are receiving, it’s time to look for a new doctor- if you can find a PCP in your area. It is a terrible shame that there are fewer and fewer primary care doctors out there. When my last one decided to leave private practice to work in a VA hospital, I was given three doctor’s names as a referral, only one was taking new patients. Luckily I was accepted as a new patient and I have been very happy with him. I feel if you can not talk frankly with your doctor and have your opinion respected even if it’s not validated, you aren’t in the right office. We are all armchair experts about everything these days, when we can research pretty much everything on the internet so we can be better prepared when we go to our shorter and shorter appointments. This is the same with our children- if you want to vaccinate at a different schedule than is recommended and your paediatrician dismisses you out of hand, you’re in the wrong place. I am pro vaccination but okay with parents making their own decisions about how they are comfortable giving a child vaccines on a schedule, single vaccinations as opposed to the multi-shot ones- you and also to the doctor should be able to come to an agreement, even if it’s a compromise, so long as you are fortunate enough to keep your child at home before pre-school. I do feel it is responsible for parents to vaccinate if their child goes to daycare and is exposed to other children, for their own safety and the safety of the other children. I don’t think anyone should be exempt from vaccinating their child unless they have a valid medical reason, like an already compromised immune system. I don’t hold with religious exemptions on this. As much as I dislike “the Government” intruding in my private life, this is a public health issue, plain and simple. If enough people discontinue vaccinations, the herd immunity we so enjoy would be seriously threatened. This is my own opinion, so it’s fine if someone wants to disagree. I don’t really care to debate it. I’ve already went through the major struggles with my boy when I’ve had to make decisions that might affect him in the future, the two big ones being whether to circumcise or not and whether to vaccinate or not. They were hard decisions to make but I researched with my trusty computer and made the best decisions I could with the information I had. Thankfully my son is not often sick and hasn’t been in any serious accidents (knock wood), so my medical decisions for him, at this point, are minimal. I take him for his well child check yearly, other than that he is never sick enough to have to go to the doctor. At any rate, please vaccinate your children. It is a kindness they will be thankful for with good health and protection from life altering diseases. In turn they will help enhance the herd immunity, so people who are truly immune compromised can also be protected. 🙂
Regarding autism, putting it all in genetics doesn’t help. As there is sound science showing that the metabolic imbalances related to the genetic setup may or may not manifest according to various factor, e.g. nutrition. There is pretty serious evidence for that. I’m a bit upset by a certain too ortodox approach patent on your opinions. So it’s easy for a natural medicine lover to instantly reject your opinion on vaccines, even if it soundly based. You make pretty strong assertions based on biased perspectives on health.
This needs to be shared in every newspaper and media outlet there is. I’m so tired of non-science people pretending they know the truth. The measles are real and at the school I teach at. This is serious and not okay. All of the students, three, come from families that don’t vaccinate so now I’ve been exposed as well as the several hundred students at our school. Just vaccinate your kids or homeschool them please.
“Where I teach at” I am assuming you don’t teach a writing skills course.
Is that all you can come up with, making fun of someone because of a spelling error or typo? lol
Dr. Raff,
Thanks so much for taking the time out of your, no doubt, busy schedule and compiling this information in one place; it has saved me much work. As a medical student, I am deeply saddened by the irrational beliefs some people choose to hold while they reject the only proven preventative medicine we have. I tend to feel sympathy for those people that are frustrated with western medicine’s allopathic approach, where clinicians can rarely cure and most often focus on symptom reduction. However, the idea of rejecting prevention is simply astounding and, frankly, infuriating. Congratulations on maintaining a calm demeanor while presenting valid research that supports your argument; it is not easy for me to do. I now bow my head in a moment of silence for the greats that have made the best preventative medicine we have to offer possible: Edward Jenner, Louis Pasteur, Jonas Salk, Maurice Hilleman and the many others that dedicated their lives to helping all of us. Best wishes with your continued genetic anthropology research.
Reblogged this on RogiLife.
Remember a “DOCTOR” is only good as the books he’s read that were produced by “others” that they’ve read.. to each indivual is that, their OWN… you will hear next week their BAD.. no shots here… and to down grade someone based on their reply is only as good as the intial article~
So I just want to say one thing here and that is that if you believe that every vaccine is a good thing and just take the word of a doctor or big corperation that the dozens of vaccines they put out to make a profit are all helpful and save millions of lives every year you are aboutas gullible as they come. They are out to make money for share holders they are not a public service they will put out more vaccines and and tell you that they are nessasary for your childs health because they are feat mongering money gabbers just like the anti-vaccine alternative medicine pushers. Its all a bunch of hog wash shoved down people’s throats for the sake of profit through public extortion. Simple fact is as a parent you are personally resonsable for the well being of your child and that means getting your facts strait on everything you choose to give or not give your child. Not all vaccines are a good thing some have the potential to cause problems far worse than they hope to prevent look at the number of children that have been hospitalized or killed by garnasil which only protects against 1/3 of the known strains of HPV (a cruable STD that in combination with other factors can potentially cause cervical cancer.)
Now to say that all vaccines are bad is equally stupid and narrow minded. So will people juststop argueing for 5 damn minutes and agree that there is a middle ground its not the polar opposites that it is made out to be the world is not black and white grow up already.
It’s important to remember this phrase: “Correlation does not imply causation.” It’s just as likely that your decision to try out some Indian curry at the new Indian restaurant three months ago caused the sudden cases of heart burn you’ve been recently experiencing as it is that Autism is caused by vaccinations. It’s a coincidence and it just happened, unfortunately. That’s it.
I think this vaccination argument can not be mentioned enough. Most of the above mentioned diseases are can kill a child, especially whooping cough and there are things we vaccinate against that are not listed such as tuberculosis that also killed people back in the day. Don’t be a chump and vaccinate your child according to the recommended schedule and with the appropriate precautionary measures in place. These vaccines were created for a reason. I understand that there have been some cases of children that reacted severely to vaccine compounds and while that sucks, those people should realize that their child is an exception rather than the rule to vaccines. They are doing a disservice to other parents by waxing ill about what the vaccine did to their child and actively discouraging them from protecting their children. Let them know that this is a possible but rare occurrence and leave them be to their decision.
On a side note, while I applaud the content of the article, I don’t applaud its writing. I suppose it might have been meant as a quick rant, but if it is meant to create awareness or try to lure those on the other side over, you’ve chased half of them away by forcing them to click on links to better understand the point you’ve just made. You’ve left them with more questions than answers and for those who are already firmly grounded in their beliefs and who don’t care to know more, you’ve given them the opportunity to walk away without really learning anything further.
It’s not a well-written argument against the anti-vaccine movement and I wish something more thoroughly written had gained all this attention. A whole bunch of links have been thrown at people with encouraging words reading along the lines of “go read you ignorant apes!” while not providing anything more for the pro-vaccine side. You’re asking people to consider another side of an argument they’ve already made up their minds about, and then asking them to do some more work considering this side of the argument by throwing links at them to more information that you should have organized yourself and disseminated to them yourself in this article. Instead, it’s a hodgepodge of links and angry remarks that have little meaning and barely advances the knowledge the reader. Given that your title for the article indicates to me that you’re hoping to convince those who are anti-vaccine to think more deeply about the subject, I don’t think you’ve convinced them to take these actions at all.
I have seen better vaccine rants and the one that sticks out in my mind as the best and most informative that I have ever read was written by a guy who was drunk off his ass when he wrote it. I just wish that you had taken to the time to write a full, informative article instead of this linkstorm bs with ominous overtones that I just looked at.
Please check out “Beware of Dangerous Vaccine Effects : The Greater Good” (Dr. Mercola. Com)
I’m wondering if we will see, at some point, a court case where the plaintiff is the parent of a child harmed or killed by a vaccine preventable disease in one of these outbreak pockets the US is now experiencing, and the defendants are parents who refused vaccinations with no medical basis…
It’s theoretically possible under certain facts, but realistically will probably never happen. To win a case like that I think you’d have to prove causation–that this specific defendant’s child caused the infection in your child. I can see some hypothetical cases where that would be feasible, but realistically I wouldn’t expect to see anything like that ever make it through the first screening phase of a lawsuit.
It’s possible to sue anyone, but it will never hold. You see, it’s not my job to protect your children. If you feel your children are in jeopardy, then it is up to you to shield them against harm. If you do not want them catching the measles then it is up to you to vaccinate them. If they still obtain the virus/disease then you can blame the vaccine….not me. If your child is too young to get the vaccine, then it is up to you to keep them out of (public) places where there may be sick people.
You are full of it, cause we all know the Big Pharma and Doctor’s have their butts covered all the way around. They can kill and get away with it, while other innocent people are put in prison to rot, when they did nothing. I don’t worry because they will reap what they sow in the end!
I was a very sick child and allergic to egg as well. I was one of those who was protected by herd immunitybut i still got very sick with chickenpox. A soon as i was able as an adult (and the formula was changed and was without so much egg), i got the other vaccinations to protect the children i interact with at work. I had to stay away from many other children for fear of catching something that would have an impact on my fragile immune system. That is what must be done when children are not vaccinated, now more than ever before given that the herd immunity is no longer assured. I do not believe the cost argument for these vaccines My understanding is that tthey are sold almost at cost. I compare that to the naturopaths I’ve seen who sell so much to make money off my back and i admit to feeling like at least medical establishment has real scientific data to back it up. Still, i always err on side of caution now, eat organic, eat no added anything, avoid most medications and am thankful that when I’m really sick, medicine is there.
What is meant by “3 million children’s lives are saved every year by vaccination”. If someone gets vaccinated for a vaccine preventable illness and does not die of that illness they were vaccinated for, that doesn’t mean the vaccine prevented it. It’s possible, but I don’t see how anyone can say for certain.
It’s the same argument anti-vaccine people are making when they say that someone has autism because a vaccine gave it to them. There’s no way (currently) to prove that. There are plenty of people who suffer from autism that have never been vaccinated for anything.
I wasn’t vaccinated for a lot of things (some because my parents are against it, others because when I was a child people weren’t vaccinated for a lot of things that children get vaccinated for today) and do not suffer from any vaccine preventable illness. If I did, no one could say for certain that had I been vaccinated for it I’d be fine because even this blog post states that all vaccines take. I don’t go get the flu shot and have never suffered from the flu (which is different from suffering from cold symptoms). I know people who get it every year and many of them never suffer from the flu, some of them do.
I’m friends with a man who got a bad vaccine as a baby and has been in wheelchair his entire life because of it. I also know plenty of people who have been vaccinated for everything under the sun and are fine.
Get vaccinated. Don’t get vaccinated. Either way, you’re taking some sort of risk and you need to be the one who decides whether or not you get it. My issue isn’t with the vaccines themselves, but with people telling me I’m a bad person for not getting them or my government trying to force me to get them.
Sorry, there’s a few missing words missing in my comment that I would have caught had I proof read before submitting. The lack of those words makes it look like I’ma little bipolar and keep changing my stance. I hope everyone who reads can figure out what I mean.
Wish there was an edit button.
Yes, you have to use common sense and wisdom in ALL decisions. My common sense tells me that vaccines and drugs are poison. In order to develop a “true” immune system, you must allow it develop naturally. I know a ton of people who do NOT vaccinate their kids. One friend had 8 kids, and vaccinated the 1st 4, so one time I asked her if she saw a diff between the vaccinated ones and the ones who weren’t..her reply was that the 4 vaccinated were always sick and it would take them forever to get well. IF, the others, and that is a big IF, got sick, they bounced back in a couple of days. FACT…we all have to get sick in order to develop immunity against whatever we get. FACT…vaccines and drugs destroy your own GOD given immune system. You people voting for the vaccines are either, dumbed down sheeple as the government wants you to be, or you are the Pharma shills they pay to keep the debates like this going to keep people in FEAR. There is a cure for all things, including cancer and I know because I beat a very aggressive cancer without drugs, chemo, radiation, blah, blah,blah! Doctor’s are taught by the Big Pharma, only to cut it out, hack it off or put a band aid on it to suppress a symptom, which in turn, will take another drug to cover up the side effects of the drug before it. I KNOW this is a fact, heard it from a Pharmacists mouth. You are all being greatly deceived here and I suggest that you pray for wisdom. Our government will eventually try to force us all to take vaccines, but I have news for them, won’t do it, and if they hold me down and jab me, well, I know how to pull the crap out once they jab me. You say you know plenty of people who have been jabbed for everything under the sun and they are just fine…really? Are you with them every day, know them personally to know what little ailments they might have or other scripts they might be on to cover up all that’s going on with them? Because every one that I know who has been vaccinated has some form of issue going on with them. I won’t tell you that you are bad for vaccinating your children, however, I will tell you that you are blinded and live in fear due to “created” disease and the lies they put out on the media about x amount of kids dying from this or that. The numbers are way over the top, example, if they tell you 30 kids died from measles, it’s most likely 3…and the only reason people die from the disease, is because their immune systems are not functioning properly from the crap they put into it and they also don’t tell you that most of those kids WERE vaccinated. I’ve seen litters of puppies all die from Parvo AFTER the vaccine, what makes you think it’s not the same for kids. I know horror stories about the HPV vaccine, from just my small area here, and how it’s maimed or killed young women who were otherwise healthy. I want to know why you all LIVE IN FEAR? And WHY you think these things are so wonderful? It’s ludicrous to believe these things will ever protect you, because they don’t. All they do is destroy the body one day at a time. When you can all show me proof of a vaccinated child from day 1, meaning practically birth these days, to adulthood and show me the non existent Medical Records because they are so very healthy BECAUSE of the vaccines, and show me proof of all these things, including the vaccine inserts and ingredients and side effects being LIES, then maybe, just maybe, I can buy into it. FACT..you are showing me nothing, but little made up links by Medical Groups filled with nothing but out and out lies. I am from the SHOW ME STATE and I want PROOF, not made up lies, or scientific evidence. I have proof for what I am saying, because I have experienced it or seen it in children and even animals. Non vaccinated versus vaccinated, a huge diff in their health, and it’s the NON vaccinated ones that thrive.
In all the discussions I’ve had on this topic I have never run into such an obvious fabricator.
Thank you. You’re dead on.
For all the good that has been done there is no excuse to put thimerosal (mercury) in vaccinations and there is too much evidence against big pharma and their agendas to trust them at all… especially now. Do not trust blindly… do your own research especially where children are concerned. Fluoride is another example of toxic substances being foisted upon the nation in the name of good dental health, please check the recent Harvard study on this chemical.
http://www.naturalnews.com/033584_Dr_Maurice_Hilleman_SV40.html#
Another great example of people lying to parents. There’s a good writeup here and here (the latter link specifically addresses how that Natural News article is used to deceive people).
Here’s a very short summary of the issue.
That video looks like it was made by a 5 year old in terms of editing. You guys are crazier than I ever thought possible. Cancer virus? You iknow what really sucks about this, I clicked on a link and actually read and watched it. What a waste of time. All of you anti-vaxxers ARE being scammed and lied to. Click the above link. How many ads do you see? These people are cashing in on your fear by generating ad revenue! Now scroll up, any ads at the top of this personal blog?
I agree with you, but to those who are for vaccines, will NOW find a way to claim the Doctor insane. LOL They only believe the liars they are in agreement with. And IF some of them here really are paid Pharma shills, like Dorit Reiss is, they get paid for any remarks they make. Bottom line is, they will never change my mind about vaccines, and we can’t change the mind of blinded people, because their brains are too boxed in to really face reality and realize they are being conned, all for the sake of MONEY!
Intersting read. http://www.healthy-holistic-living.com/whooping-cough-outbreaks-triggered-by-vaccinated-children.html
Wow, there certainly are a lot of ads in that link. Big business this holistic approach, how can you believe anything they write, its all click bait.
This article makes one glaring mistake. It talks about “vaccines” as if they are all the same. They are not. There’s a difference between tried and true vaccines for MMR, polio and the like that have been tested for decades. Then there are at least 8 new vaccines that have all just come out over the last decade or so. We are now vaccinating newborns before the leave the hospital for sexually transmitted disease. We need to take a step back on some of these new vaccines. A lot of them came out relatively close together. There wasn’t time to study each and how they effected the general public because there were too many new ones given all at once. Also this article ignores the blatant attempt by at least one company to deceive the public & hard sell everyone on Gardasil which we were told was a vaccine for cervical cancer. The company had to pull the ads when it came to light they were being deceitful. So we shouldn’t ALWAYS trust in science and the medical professionals all the time with no question. And we shouldn’t believe that just because some vaccines are good that automatically means all vaccines are good.
Reblogged this on Jusd.
The great thing about science is that it works whether you want to “believe” in it or not. These anti-vaccers are on the same level as evolution deniers = fools.
Sure, science ‘works’ but our interpretation of it can be flawed absolutely. You’re no better. They have their God, you have yours. The ironic thing is they are one in the same. Jokes on you.
If you want to delude yourself with this kind of flawed thinking, go right on ahead. Next time you’re sick, just try to pray the virus away, don’t go to a hospital, don’t go to the drug store, just sit there an pray it away. Heck, the next time you comment, just try to pray your comment my way. Don’t use your computer, don’t use snail mail, don’t use any of the benefits science has bestowed on you and let’s see just how effective you can be. You’re suffering from a chronic case of I.D. Ten T. syndrome.
So blind and ignorant. Science put a natural mechanism inside humans to deal with viruses. You want to tamper with it. Who is ‘anti-science’ now?
Michael Shermer has described[1] as “wronger than wrong” the mistake addressed in what he calls Asimov’s axiom, after the noted author Isaac Asimov, who discussed the issue in his book of essays,[2] The Relativity of Wrong. A statement that equates two errors is wronger than wrong when one of the errors is clearly more wrong than the other. As Asimov put it:
“When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.”
Asimov explains that science is both progressive and cumulative. Even though scientific theories are later proven wrong, the degree of their wrongness attenuates with time as they are modified in response to the mistakes of the past.[1] For example, data collected from satellite measurements shows precisely how the Earth’s shape differs from a perfect sphere.[1]
Shermer states that being wronger than wrong is actually worse than being not even wrong (that is, being unfalsifiable).
According to John Jenkins,[3] who reviewed The Relativity of Wrong, the title essay of Asimov’s book is the one “which I think is important both for understanding Asimov’s thinking about science and for arming oneself against the inevitable anti-science attack that one often hears – [that] theories are always preliminary and science really doesn’t ‘know’ anything.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wronger_than_wrong
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of blind and ignorant. Nor the meaning of science. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
gewisn: Thanks for the insight. It goes without saying that our observation and study of the natural world has been going on since mankind became sentient (I suppose even non-sentient life has the ability to observe, experiment & adapt, although we know not due to instinct or faculty, nor do they record their findings). One of my issues with modern science is the lack of respect for history. The assumption appears that earlier man was primitive and their observations lacking – or as Asimov put it ‘wronger than wrong’. When in reality their understandings were at one point considered ‘right’. And if not for those observations, the scientific method would not have continued to where we are today.
My second critique of modern science is that it champions itself above all things. Science is just that – science. It’s purpose is to provide information for the purpose of making choices. It’s role is not, nor can ever be equal to the intuition, emotion or judgment involved in making those decisions. This is proven by the fact that a person may have all the correct information but still make a wrong choice. Or have all the wrong information and make a correct choice. The wrong or correct choice being measured by favorable or not favorable results. In other words, science plays the servant to psychology and together they mete out wisdom (or so we hope).
My third criticism is with the definition of ‘science’ itself – which is why you see me frequently add quotes around it. Whereas it once used to be synonymous with ‘knowledge’ it has gone on to cover a lot of different subjects and mean different things to different people. I think that most people are in fact asking about truth when they ask ‘Is It Science? Too many people have lifted science to the altar of infallibility and worship statistical evidence as ‘absolute truth’, which simply puts them on par with the religious fanatics they seem to always be at odds with.
Hello,
I am writing because I would like to translate your letter and share it on my FB, where I belong to a group of 800 members in which we share a common denominator: we are mothers, we are from Argentine and we live outside of our country. We often talk about this and think it would be important for those moms who do not speak English can still access your content. Thank you very much!
Please feel free! Thank you.
http://www.eurekaselect.com/74297/article
As a parent who does not vaccinate her children at all, I can tell you that I do not believe in herd immunity (as I do not believe that vaccines are effective) so I do not expect my children to be “protected” by your children being vaccinated. Furthermore, my children get sick by being around your vaccinated children and picking up the diseases you have chosen to inject into your child (along with mercury and aluminum and formaldehyde used as a preservative). Let’s not forget the monkey or cow or pig tissue which they culture the disease on, meaning your injecting monkey kidney cells and DNA into your child. If you’re ok with that as a parent then that’s fine, it’s your right to vaccinate your child, just as it’s my right to choose not to vaccinate my child. But just so we’re clear here, as a parent who does not vaccinate, I would really prefer if other parents did NOT vaccinate as well because my children get sick from being around your disease-injected child. But at least I know my child will not end up with autism or some other vaccine related, unalterable, lifechanging disease.
Reading. It isn’t difficult. You should try it at some point. The links are there.
The links take you to websites and biased research. When a doctor who has ties with Merck writes articles like that we should be skeptical in trusting that information. Where is the independent, unbiased research?
What would you consider an unbiased source? Many of the links are to the FDA and CDC, you can do your own research on Pubmed- or is unbiased research only that which supports your own viewpoint?
Scott, exactly..the FDA and CDC have ties with the drug manufacturers. We all should know that by now. I have done my own search and have not found any unbiased research studies. I would be glad to read any you can send that do not have ties with drug companies and use saline as a placebo. I have yet to see those. As for my viewpoint, I am in the middle. I am looking for the research to get educated on both sides.
The CDC has no ties to drug manufacturers, they are the Centers For Disease Control. Frequently , if a drug is causing adverse side effects, they will sound the alarm. You know, you might want to consider a historical control, pre-Edward Jenner, to look at the relative effect of vaccines. You could also look pre and post vaccine campaigns (India and polio is a recent study- I’m sure there are many papers out by many bodies WHO, India public health ect … If you want authoritative papers by people with no ties to drug companies or public health, you are out of luck. You might as well try and find papers on child birth written by Catholic priests. They may be there , but they are way outside their field of expertise
Exactly, Scott. I could not have said it better myself. I will keep looking for papers without conflicts of interest. They are sure hard to find. I was disappointed to not see some better research in Jennifer’s article with taking such a strong stance on vaccines.
You are either lazy or dishonest, otherwise you would have searched (and found) more than enough research to prove that millions of people needed to be involved into some sort of conspiracy to make your stupid belief plausible. I do not waste my time on lazy people or liars.
Holy cow, Batman.
It is easy (and hypocritical) not to believe in “herd immunity” when you are living in the Developed World. Test your believe in Nigeria, take your children with you. They would not be affected or get sick because of non-vaccinated children.
Actually, Nigeria, and most African countries do have access to vaccination programs and protocols offered by the World Health Organization through outreach programs. So even there, herd immunity would be established once the programs gained enough penetration. The best example of an effective vaccination program against a deadly disease is the eradication of polio in India as of this past January 2014. They achieved this over 25+ years of rigorous vaccination programs which saw every susceptible child in every nook and cranny of the country getting vaccinated. The program was called the Pulse Polio Campaign and was very successful in providing protection because from polio being an endemic disease in India during the 80’s and 90’s, it was completely eradicated through the hard work of volunteer groups and scientists who wanted a better life. Oh and before anybody says polio vaccine is a profit magnet for Big Pharma, it isn’t because Jonas Salk released the vaccine without a patent, which means no one company has the license or the exclusive rights over production. So any company that does produce the vaccine still has to follow the strict and rigorous safety protocols, but the profit margin is about as much as a single drop of water in a full glass. The company produces the drug at subsidized rates from the government so that the company doesn’t lose too much money in the process.
In North Nigeria boko haram is preventing vaccination against polio because they think is it a conspiracy from western countries to make nigerian children sick. Polio is on the rise in those area’s. Conspiracy theories can be found in all party’s of the world…..
While conspiracy theories are rampant, what is happening in Africa is political. What is happening here is lunacy.
Your children should be taken away from you and given to people who love them.
You have a lot of nerve telling her that her children should be taken away from her whoever you are! She loves her children, that is why she doesn’t jab them full of POISON. Perhaps the dumbed down sheeple should have their kids taken away from them? Now, do you like someone telling you that your kids should be taken away from you because you vaccinate? Probably not. How would you like it if someone told you that you were slowly killing your kids from vaccines, that probably in their lifetime, they are going to have many bad things happen to them, including cancer because of these vaccines changing their DNA and killing their immune systems? So, weigh what you say, it just might come back to bite you!
Bravo – well said.
Sheeple invalidates any argument being made. Stop and try again. This time with relevant facts.
Here’s facts Bill, you are another blinded one full of BS. Bottom line is this….if YOU want to vaccinate your kids till the cows come home or until you kill them, whichever comes first, then feel free to do so without me giving a hoot. But if WE choose to NOT vaccinate ours, butt out. Where it’s not your responsibility, it’s none of your business. Vaccines do shed, whether they are dead or live, it’s been proven, over and over. You are just looking to the wrong side for your information. lol
Citations please, especially on killed vaccines shedding. That would be a case of reanimation, certainly good for NEJM.
We would be very glad to leave your unvaccinated children alone, provided of course, that they leave us alone. That means you keep them away from all other children, and if they become ill, do not utilize any of the public health system, or modern medicine, since you know that it doesn’t work.
That does bring up the question of why you are using a computer and the internet-since you know, those things are products of the same science that you say doesn’t work? You do know that the same Pauli Exclusion Principle and Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle that make you semiconductors work also govern the chemistry of living organisms.
Your kids should be placed in the care of people who do care for their safety.
You have more nerve, putting your kids and other kids at risk for the sake of your own pride and narcissism
Let me guess. You’re not a scientist, all of the information you have comes from the internet, and you’re so totally convinced you’re correct that you didn’t bother reading any of the links, correct?
Let me ask you something. Putting a rocket in to orbit around the earth is difficult. Designing it is difficult. If some random mom or dad with no training or education in rocket science told you that he was going to tell NASA that their rocket designs were all garbage, would you trust that he was right and NASA was wrong? No, you’d dismiss him as a lunatic.
Why, then, do you think that despite having no education in the immensely complex field of medicine you are somehow qualified to correct those who have made careers and lives out of studying immunology? Before you answer that question (which I know you won’t), let me remind you of being two things. 1) ‘I am a mom’ does not mean the same as ‘I am qualified in immunology’, and 2) ‘I read articles on the internet’ is not the same as ‘I studied immunology and achieved an accredited qualification which demonstrates my understanding of the topic’.
AND even, with all the vaccinations taking place, we live longer than ever, AND les children are dying …..world population is growing rapidly, ever since vaccinations were given in Africa And Asia.
I don’t even intend to sound insulting, but…seriously, are you stupid? Are you messed up in the head? You’re talking some Island of Dr. Moreau pesudoscience that makes no sense whatsoever. If you had kids…they should be taken from you. Not just because you don’t vaccinate, but from fear of them contracting your stupidity.
Once again, proving the almost religious fanaticism of the anti-choice folk.
I suggest you go through the comments. Check out which side is posting the most insulting comments.
By the way, I am not too fond of the blatant insults either. I would prefer that they would post the actual verifiable evidence to support their claims.
Concerned Mom September 23, 2014 at 12:14 pm: ”Offit is a liar.”
Concerned Mom April 21, 2014 at 5:00 pm: “Also, I’d like to point out that your ASSumption that I’m anti-vaxx is incorrect.”
Concerned Mom August 12, 2014 at 9:36 am: “And I just love your rote response to all who disagree with you…”
And finally:
Concerned Mom September 11, 2014 at 10:12 am
“Boris, have you gotten your Gardasil vax yet? Because you could pass HPV on to your partner, but that’s completely preventable if you get the shot, right?
Please do the research. Gardasil (and other HPV vaccines) only (supposedly) prevent a small number of the HPV viruses believed (believed) to cause cervical cancer, which would (if it even works) only prevent a far smaller percent than the 7.9 percent you cite. In the grand scheme, even if the shot does work, the incidences of adverse reactions far outweighs the possibility of actually getting a cancer that could have been prevented by the shot.”
By the way, have you come up with the actual data to support that last sentence yet? It has been a while. And remember, no raw VAERS data. Here are the statistics on the risk of HPV caused cancers:
http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm
Harsh
That’s exactly the kind of response that further polarizes people. If you have nothing insightful intelligent or relevant to say, perhaps you should refrain from responding.
Please educate yourself — you don’t sound intelligent with the statements you make. Do you have scientifically confirmed proof of the implication of damage done your statements imply???? I highly doubt it………in fact, I’m sure you don’t! You’ve been punked!! I wish you could go back in time to my childhood (which I remember vividly–when swimming pools were closed by the city on hot, hot days because polio cases seemed to spike on hot August days and witness victims of polio — like Betty in my neighborhood– a mother of a seven year old child I knew in her thirties who woke up one morning with a stiff neck and 24 hours later was in an iron lung because the muscles enabling her to inhale and exhale were paralyzed by polio (she was totally paralyzed below the neck except for the ring finger and little finger on her right hand which she could move up and down— about a half a centimeter for the ring finger and a centimeter for the little finger. She lived the rest of her life — about 20 years — in the hospital at the University of Iowa—-my mom brought us to visit her periodically. I bet she would have LOVED to have been vaccinated for polio!! Her case is only one tiny example of the thousands and thousands and thousands of victims—mostly children— paralyzed for life having been infected by this despicable disease.) I personally remember languishing in total misery for two weeks after I contracted the red measles, apart form my intense suffering from big red measles all over my body, my right eye was so sensitive to light that I had to have all of the curtains drawn and draped my upper right arm over my right eye to keep out all light. Today I am almost blind in that eye–the doctor speculates I had a huge measle spot on my retina. At least I didn’t die. Some did. I suffered intensely from chicken pox — and had left over scars after recovery. I languished through the mumps, my neck painfully swollen to the size of two golf balls on each side— —at least, being a female, I didn’t have to worry about being sterilized for life like little boy victims of this disease faced.—– Read about small pox and how this disease — if it didn’t kill their victims — ravaged bodies leaving life long scaring. Read about these diseases and learn from history. Trust medical personnel who know what they are talking about. Don’t be duped by crack “scientists” who are whackos in the ilk of religious sects who predict things like the end of the world on a specific date and then when it doesn’t happen, create even more crazy crack theories about why it didn’t. Would you choose to go back to the 1920’s before antibiotics and die of infections? (George Washington died of a throat infection —- the infection ravaged his body —- penicillin would have cured it today) Your opposition to vaccinations makes as much sense as those refusing antibiotics to treat infections…………Please read history, learn about these diseases and how they ravaged humankind before you (who are immune to these diseases yourself because your parents/grandparents had enough sense to protect you!!) act in ways that can again endanger the health of today’s children.
How old are you anyway? You must be ancient if you didn’t get the vaccine for polio?? I know it’s been around since at least the 50’s because that’s when I grew up. I also know that when Salk brought that crap into existence, that polio was going out the door and he started an epidemic with the vaccine, even he admitted that one. There is also such a thing called Satellite Polio, google that one. I think that people are so blinded in the world today, that they don’t see what’s right in front of them…that these vaccines are keeping these diseases alive. I’ve never had a flu shot, or any other vaccine for that matter, except the ones they gave me as a baby when I had no voice to say NO and even back then, they were very few! I have never seen any cases of polio either. I have however, been poisoned by an antibiotic in the fluoroquinolone group and have suffered for over two years because of it and on a list of 1000’s upon 1000’s who have been maimed by this group of drugs and a group of lawyers suing Bayer right now. However, we know they have their butts covered well, those glorified street drug pushers called the Big Pharma. I guess it all depends on if you want to be brainwashed in truth or lies, whether you want to live in fear and run for the vaccines, or to have enough wisdom to stay away from them and let your God given immune system work. In truth man of the things that are causing people sickness today, besides vaccines is the crap they spray in the air, put in the food and water and no vaccine will protect you from any of that. A good immune system will help you a whole lot though and you are killing yours with those vaccines. : – )
I am thirthy, my parents were both born in the 40’s and they had tons of friends and family that fell victim to polio. My parents are not ancient, they are smart and have lived through scary times! Times which you have not! Yes, there was a problem when polio vaccine came out but it’s been working great now for 40+ years. There was also problems with the first sedat belts, air bags and helmets but I’m going to take a leap here and assume you use these products to protect you and your children. I’ve had vaccines and I have a great immune system and rarely get sick. Thanks mom and dad for not being ignorant!!!!
I am thinking you meant you were 30! So, there you go, you are blinded by your parents beliefs, I can understand that as parents guide us but doesn’t necessarily mean they are right in their thinking/opinions either.. You might be in good health at 30, so was I, but time will tell. You can’t tell me I’ve not seen horrors in my lifetime, because you don’t know me. I’ve been through many things, I was born in the 50’s and my parents never made that much money, but we still survived. We didn’t see Doctor’s on a regular basis either or Dentists and we are still here. My parents were fine until they fell into the Pharmaceutical trap and now they are both dead because of those drugs you think are so wonderful. I’ve been through many things, including a very aggressive cancer, which btw, was healed naturally, not by any Medical Dr. or their poisons. I’ve struggled through many things, including money lacking but God always brought me through it. You are still young, you need to educate yourself and not base your opinions on your parents opinion. I thank GOD for all of my wisdom, not any man here on earth and he has opened my eyes to the truth on all things. : – )
Unfortunately, there are many diseases that our immune systems cannot battle as much as you believe it to be true, that is not all we need. That might have been all you needed when the population of earth was measured in the millions instead of billions because disease was much more isolated to travelling tribes. The globalization of modern society means a new flu can be on the other side of the world in hours. It can mutate at alarming speeds and it is our ability to understand it through science that will allow us to continue on. As we changed, so did the way we needed to protect ourselves.
Science is not biased like your position on this. It is simply testing and data and unfortunately all the data supports vaccinations. It doesn’t mean that mistakes cannot be made or that evil companies do not exist but the same can said about holistic and natural medicine. If you believe there are no scammers in holistic medicine, you are very naive.
Even your hero Jenny McCarthy is back tracking on her past accusations into vaccines and now states she was never against them. The fact is that everyone has always considered vaccination a no brainer until vaccinations did such a good job at eliminating diseases that there are now whackos that believe these things never existed to begin with or that somehow the drug is just some tax on everyone and just a way for the 1% to profit. In a world that believes in any possible conspiracy, you can really never win this argument. If vaccines didn’t work, the data would show it and we wouldn’t use it. If they work 100%, then people question if there is an actual disease.
Your god made you crazy. Yes, you had a reaction to an antibiotic. People without them used to die. We have polio in the world still. In places where many are – – wait for it – – unvaccinated. We have eradicated smallpox, not kept it alive. The fact that Big Pharma is running rampant is arguable; there is evidence of that. However, it is separate from and irrelevant to the vaccination issue, whose only debatable points should be: are they safe? Yes. Is there some risk? Yes. Rare and small ones usually. Do they work? Yes. Ninety-nine percent reduction of a disease is not statistically insignificant. If you had lived through this, you’d have a different point of view. It’s far rarer to die from a vaccine than it is to die from the disease it’s preventing.
No, sorry, my GOD didn’t make me an idiot, my GOD gives me the wisdom to discern truth from lies and it’s very obvious that you don’t know GOD at all, so you are one blinded idiot. There are large amounts of children who have vaccine reactions and if they don’t die, they suffer during their lives from chronic disease. You are getting your info from Pharma sites, and they are all liars. You can believe what you want, but just glad I am not so dumbed down. And reaction to an antibiotic? You don’t even know what you are talking about, this crap has killed people, put them in wheelchairs and or left them to suffer for life. Many wish for death! Now tell that mouth to shut up and leave the people who aren’t vaccine advocates alone.
I’d rather be blinded by my parents’ beliefs than by the measles they let me catch.
I believe you meant that you’re allergic to fluoroquinolones. You were not intentionally poisoned.
Good Lord… OK, against stupidity, the Gods Themselves fight in vain. So… people, this is going to be like in the beginning of the vaccination campaigns, far back during the XIX century. This people do not remember the bad times before vaccines, and refuse to learn by either history or science. They will start learning only after a few of their children die or become maimed due to lack of vaccination. Unluckily, that will take other children as victims as well. I know it’s sad, but that’s how it is. This anti-vaccination nonsense will finish when they arrive to critical mass and manage to provoke an epidemic. Once they start burying their children and watching other people’s children, they will…
… blame the government or a big pharma conspiracy. It’s a loss battle. If they refuse to read all the scientific information and historical facts and they nitpick from the data, it’s impossible for them to change their point of view. They have chosen sides.
I just pity the kids.
I’m with you Anonymous. I’ll take my chances against the diseases.
That makes two of you. But that’s Ok. That’s just Darwin in action. And I love the argument about a poster being victim to his parent’s experiences! And how parents aren’t right. But we should all butt out because it’s up to the parents not to vaccinate! Funny.
Exactly what I was going to say! Natural selection- If you’re too stupid to realise it makes sense to vaccinate your children, it’s best if your genes aren’t passed on anyway. Pity your children might infect and kill someone else’s children too though!
Hey, let’s not wish death on anyone’s children, okay? I realize this is a frustrating issue for everyone, but we don’t want ANYONE to get sick. Especially kids.
You apparently have not done your research, because your children cannot get sick by vaccinated children. The bacteria in vaccinations are dead, so there is 0% chance that your children could get sick from a vaccinated child by an inactivated immunization. Due to the trend of parents recently deciding not to vaccinate their children, there are outbreaks of vaccine presentable diseases on the rise and in consequence their are children dying due to not being vaccinated. I am sure you would feel differently if your child died from one of these diseases. There are reasons why the Institute of Medicine (IOM), American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), American Medical Association (AMA), World Health Organization (WHO), National Institutes of Health (NIH), Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) all strongly support getting your children vaccinated. They do mass amounts of research on the betterment of health of the United States and want your children to be healthy. You can go to any of their websites and they can give you ACCURATE information on vaccines, because 90% of the information you have stated is 100% false.
Obviously we all HAVE done our research and we choose to follow God’s path, not Satan’s. LOL All these wonderful organizations you listed, they are all in cahoots, and they are all making a killing off killing you and your children. Pray for wisdom!!
Someone needs to pray for you (I am not that religious so I won’t). Your comment reminds of a story about a man waiting to be rescued in a flood. He waited on his roof and boat came by offering to take the man but and he declined saying he would wait for the rescue boat and sit and pray for it. The next day while praying for the rescue boat, a second larger boat with local people came by but again the man refused and decided to wait for the rescue boat he had been praying for. After declining the third boat, the man died of no food.
The story says that the man was angry because of the way he was left to die alone without being rescued by God. When the man met with God he was eager to ask him why he left him to die alone and didn’t send rescue. Moreover, he continued to brag about his trust, belief and devotion to God. When he finished, God replied “I know how much you love me and for that I sent you help three times!”
If you believe that ingredients that God gave us to help us are in fact Satan, you and your children may suffer the same fate as the man waiting for rescue. We are on this planet to explore. We are using science for wonderful things such as harnessing the suns power to provide endless energy, plants to provide nutrients and much more. We test different compounds that are available and find things that work. This is what sets us apart from other animals and why we are special in the eyes of God. To think that we should not be using our brains and the things in our environment to the best of our abilities sounds more like something Satan would want, not God.
You are not following Gods path.
I think I just got a concussion from my head hitting my desk too hard. Yes, science and truth is in bed with Satan. Of course! Why didn’t I think of that.
Pray for critical thinking skills.
#prayforanonymous’brain
You apparently have not done your research, because your children cannot get sick by vaccinated children
Oh really? I see it all the time. And if those things are “dead” as you claim, they’d not work anyway. They lie to you and all that dead crap started when people began to catch on to what those vaccines really do!
This is probably pointless to argue, but they heat kill the pathogens in the vaccines then filter them. Your body still sees this dead bacteria as a foreign substance in your body and the B cells and T cells your immune system produces to rid the substance memorizes the pathogen. This makes your immune system recognize and eradicate the pathogen if it sees it again in the future. (this was a very short summary and includes a lot more detail but I will not go into it). As for God’s path, it is like the man drowning in a lake… a boat comes by and offers to save him, he says “no, God will save me”, another boat comes by and offers again, again he declines stating God will save him. He dies and asks God why did you not save me? God’s reply, I sent two boats. These organizations are not trying to make money, they are trying to help the United States save money when it comes to healthcare costs through prevention.
Well, you can just stay blinded, okay? God also says in his word that he does blind people to the truth, because he knows their minds will never change. God has sent me word on all of these things, and I continue to listen to him, not man. He told me once that just because drugs and technology exists, doesn’t mean he approves of them and that people allow FEAR to control them instead of FAITH. As I say, drugs have only been here about 100 years, if the Lord had wanted them here, they would have been here for 2000 plus years and well, they have been actually, just not in the form of “chemical” drugs. You have to remember that when God created us, he also gave us free will. He will NOT intervene here unless he is asked, but so far, I see him being shoved right out of the world. We are in a spiritual war between God and Satan, but people have to have wisdom to discern the truth and to choose the correct side. Happy jabbing to you and yours. : – )
What is a “chemical drug”?
Oh please, don’t play dumb Jennifer Raff! You know exactly what chemicals are and exactly what goes into the drugs…so, please don’t tell me how all drugs are herbs because I know better! Homeopathy has NO side effects, and why I choose that route or other natural alternatives. I have been poisoned by enough chemical crap to last me a lifetime! I’ve had Nurses tell me that drugs were herbs, but I know it’s a lie, because I can google any ingredient in any drug or vaccine and find the truth. Oh, yes, they might put a dot of an herb in there but they surround it with chemicals which kills what the herb might even do. I am not stupid, and I am tired of your Pharma lies. You don’t have to have a degree to have knowledge, anyone can have knowledge, but not everyone has wisdom. : – )
A drug is any compound which has an effect on the physiological state of the body. A chemical is anything composed of two or more atoms, ergo all drugs are chemicals-as is anything you consume save the noble gases or free elements, eg monoatomic Oxygen or Nitrogen (and you are rarely around those unless you run a plasma torch). There are no chemical free drugs.
“As I say, drugs have only been here about 100 years, if the Lord had wanted them here, they would have been here for 2000 plus years…”
The same is true for cars, electronics, industrial steel production, powered looms, artificial rubber, zippers, eyeglasses and contact lenses, wristwatches, and refrigeration. Nevertheless the odds are that you typed that on a computer, inside a house or other building constructed with steel, wearing clothes and shoes with rubber soles and eyeglasses or contact lenses, and that before too long you’ll get up and eat something that would have long ago spoiled but for refrigeration.
Why don’t you have the strength of your convictions?
Oh please, don’t compare gadgets to poison! Totally different and in fact, you are probably eating those poisons every day, putting them on your skin and face and showering in water filled with fluoride and other chemicals. I don’t need to show people proof, I know the proof and the proof is in me, and all others that I know who have never been vaccinated and are completely fine. I see a Chiropractor whose Dad is a Chiro and so she was never vaccinated. She is an adult now, with kids of her own, none vaccinated and they are a very healthy family. To me, I want to visibly SEE the proof, not read the scientific bull that you all copy and paste and many of you are paid for doing the rebuttals against people that don’t choose to go your route. God is not against things that might help the world along, but he is definitely not for those who are taking part in killing HIS children in the form of chemicals. Tell me, have you googled the ingredients in those vaccines you pump into your children? If you have, and you still do it, then shame on you! Oh and God’s word also says to NOT live in the world and do what man does and believe what man tells you, because man is a liar. That’s why I look to him because I trust no one. : – )
Kindly exit the internet, turn off all power and gas to your abode. They are all products of the same “scientific bull” that you know so much about. Since we know nothing about vaccines, we obviously know nothing about these other things either. I believe the term is “Fruit of a poisoned tree.”
LOL, thanks for my laugh of the day and I really needed that. Obviously you didn’t read or understand what I wrote! Another LOL Please enlighten me, choose any vaccine that you’d like and then tell me the ingredients in them. I just have no clue. : – ) You will know them by their fruits, to me, vaccines and drugs are poisoned fruit. Like I said, jab your kids, but butt out of the lives of people who do NOT vaccinate, it’s none of your business. I have plenty of good fruits and do many good things and just one of them is trying to get people to open up those minds and do research on both sides, instead of taking the big Pharma’s lies and sucking up to that. I really don’t care if people do that to their children, because it’s their right, but it’s also OUR right to NOT do it. Everyone look each other up in another 20 years and let’s see who is the most healthy. : – )
If I give you a list of all the ingredients in a vaccine, will you give me a list of all the ingredients in a fruit? Will you be able to pronounce any of them? I’ll give you a start. Most fruits contain 1,3,4,5,6-Pentahydroxyhex-2-one, (5R)-[(1S)-1,2-dihydroxyethyl]-3,4-dihydroxyfuran-2(5H)-one, 2-hydroxypropane-1,2,3-tricarboxylic acid, Homogalacturonans. Those are the simple ones-I’ll leave it to you to list the proteins, ribonucleic acids, deoxyribonucleic acids, furans.
As for a vaccine-Here’s the composition of Gardasil:
GARDASIL® is a sterile preparation for intramuscular administration. Each 0.5 mL dose contains approximately 20 μg of HPV 6 L1 protein, 40 μg of HPV 11 L1 protein, 40 μg of HPV 16 L1 protein, and 20 μg of HPV 18 L1 protein.
Inactive Ingredients
Each 0.5 mL dose of the vaccine contains approximately 225 μg of aluminum (as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate [AAHS] adjuvant), 9.56 mg of sodium chloride, 0.78 mg of L-histidine, 50 μg of polysorbate 80, 35 μg of sodium borate, and water for injection. I can pull the sequences of the proteins if you want.
So a chemical free world is a healthy one? So then when European settlers introduced small pox to the native american tribes why did they get so sick? Why was their population decimated by the disease? They certainly were not adding any chemicals to their diet of hunted game, and fresh crops. They certainly lived a healthy life style.. Yet they died in whole lots, You’re argument is about as foolish as your “proof”. You have lived behind the shield of herd immunity, but won’t admit it.
Well here’s something for you. You are welcome. Those of us who get vaccinated, and have been vaccinated, want you to know that your continued good health is something we are actually very happy to bring you. Pleased feel free to continue to live behind the wall we provide. Now kindly shut the hell up about why your so healthy living your chemical free diet.
Do you in your chemical free diet, eat fish? well sadly I got some news for you. Fish is made up of chemicals.
they are:
sodium – explosive when mixed with H20, yet needed for the heart to function, can kill if too much or too little is present
potassium – same as sodium only more so, in both manners. can kill if too much or too little is present
calcium – pretty sure everyone knows what this is for…
magnesium- burns very well, needed for the heart, helps with breathing, and eclampsia can kill if too much or too little is present
phosphorus –
sulphur –
iron – used to make steel, and red blood cells.
chlorine – primary ingredient in mustard gas (the reason why chemical weapons are supposed to be outlawed), used in pools and can easily kill.
silicon – wait this is what we make circuit boards and electronics out of, what is it doing in a fish?
manganese
zinc
copper – hmmm wonder how soon people will be steeling fish for the copper? Can kill if too much is present.
arsenic – can kill if too much is present, used in medicines.
iodine – used to purify water, so it’s pretty toxic to bacteria, and humans if too much is present.
we could go on, everything you eat is made up of chemicals, Everything you breath is made up of chemicals, everything you wear is made up of chemicals. There is no such thing as chemical free.
No, I do NOT eat fish, I eat vegetarian and all organic foods and am quite picky about what goes into my mouth. You have NOT given me my health, you pitiful blinded thing you. I give myself HEALTH with making the right choices. You have not saved me from anything, God has. I Think all you vaccine advocates are truly dumbed down because of all the chemicals in your vaccines, and the foods that you eat. Your brains are slowly being destroyed. Another Obama voter?
Oh, and me also no buy Injun story. LOL Were you there, did you see it with your own eyes? Did you see their diets, maybe fish? How many veggies did they eat per day, did they juice veggies, and do other things to keep themselves healthy? I wonder if they drank half their body weight in water per day, etc. LOL
Your language here is extraordinarily offensive. Please do not make fun of Native Americans.
Also: you’re wrong. We know quite a bit about the diets of pre-contact NA from archaeological evidence.
Jennifer Raff, FYI, I am NOT making fun of the Indians and in fact, have some Indian blood in me. I am making fun of those who use them to make a point about vaccines when in fact, you did NOT live it and in fact you know nothing about it. Like how they were treated so unfairly, THEIR land taken away. You also don’t know the situation of sanitation, and the poor lives they led. You know nothing but concocted stories. You have to LIVE it, to truly know it, and I have them in my family, so yea, you do not know anything about it! lol
No. Saying “it’s okay to talk this way because I have ‘them’ in my family” does not excuse bigoted language. You are no longer welcome on this site.
All commenters, please take note: I am very committed to allowing free expression of viewpoints, but this is an example of the rare kind of comment that will get you banned. Citing “friends” or “family”, or adding “LOL” does not excuse you from the fact that you are responsible for your language, and bigotry is not tolerated here.
actually the ancient egyptions had clay coated doses of medicines. The first Pill is actually older than many anti-vaxxers think the world is.
Anonymous. I gave you the ingredient list for a vaccine. I can get you others. Where’s my fruit composisitional analysis?
I am not surprised at all that you’re a racist. Don’t even start with ‘I’m not against Native Americans’ rubbish *directly* after you used a racial slur and mocked the way (you think) they speak . And of COURSE you’re part Native, hahahaha – 1/8th Cherokee princess, right? I can’t believe people are being so polite to you, you deserve nothing but scorn and disgust. They are stronger willed than I. I’d pray for your children if I believed in God.
Arguing with an anthropologist who studies early North Americans about early native american diets is, uh…
Ha. You think that’s bad? Check out the comment thread on this post: https://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/10/problematic-science-journalism-native-american-ancestry-and-the-solutrean-hypothesis/
Anyway, she(?) talked herself(?) into a banning with that one, so we’re all blessedly free from further such comments.
You see it all the time? Are there voices, too?
You need to research the oral polio vaccine outbreaks of polio in Africa, India, and the middle east. Then you need to read all of the vaccine inserts. Nearly every one (if not all) list the disease that the vaccine is meant to prevent as a possible side effect of getting the vaccine. Then look up the studies that show that getting the pertussis vaccine can cause the recipient to become an asymptomatic carrier that is contagious when they should be at their peek immunity. Then read up on how many recipients of the measles vaccine have developed measles, the mumps vaccine have developed mumps, etc. Are you saying that if someone actually develops the disease for which they’ve been vaccinated, FROM the vaccine, then they’re not a contagious threat? A family member who developed shingles was told that children couldn’t get chicken pox from them, yet my children did. Both the family member’s doctor and my doctor were floored, as if it’s something that never happens. Don’t get me wrong, I was super glad my kids got natural chicken pox, but if you do just a tiny bit of research, you can easily find that it’s not at all unusual for a shingles patient to pass the virus on to children, and for them to get the chicken pox from it.
Dear Concerned Mom,
1. Chicken Pox and Shingles are both caused by the same organism (Varicella zoster). If your doctors were floored, they aren’t very good then because shingles is basically the recurrence of chicken pox in adults. Since it is the same organism that causes chicken pox in children, and since it is a contagious condition, it would logically follow that it can cause chicken pox in children. Get better doctors madam.
2. I’m not sure what you mean by oral polio vaccine outbreaks. A vaccine doesn’t outbreak. A virus can have an outbreak, teenage girls can have outbreaks of pimples, but vaccines don’t have outbreaks. Vaccines are developed and administered on a purposely developed protocol to maximize effectiveness. Now if you are referring to complications of the oral vaccines, then this may be true but is not occurring at the same rate at which your fear-mongering is suggesting. I know this because I was personally involved in several Pulse Polio Campaigns as they were called in India. I do not know if you read this side of the news, but in January of this year, India officially declared, with confirmation from the World Health Organization, that it had eradicated polio. What this means is there are no more new cases of polio caused by the wild strain of polio in India for one whole year. This I can wholeheartedly assure you was due to the outstanding efforts of scientists, doctors and volunteers over decades to achieve something that has only happened one other time in the history of Medicine, and that is with the Smallpox virus. Nowadays the only time you hear about smallpox is when terrorists get a boner for violent threats. Read more reliable news than Buzzfeed and Jenny McCarthy madam.
3. To your point addressing the number of people who develop diseases after being vaccinated against them, I have yet more scientific knowledge to pass on to you. Actually, this is more statistical knowledge based on scientific findings. But basically vaccines are not 100% effective. This is because we are all different, from the DNA in our cells, to the color of our skin. It is this difference that allows us to respond differently to the same stimulus. However, majority of individuals will have a similar response to a stimulus. However, a minority will respond differently to that same stimulus. And thus it is with vaccines, MAJORITY of individuals will benefit from vaccine and will be protected from the disease, but a MINORITY will still remain susceptible to the disease despite vaccination. However, Medicine and Science continue to work around the clock to come up with more effective ways to protect against disease. All it takes is more knowledge and research (and by research I don’t mean what you read on The Onion or other such nonsense sites.). Again, read more reliable news madam.
Sincerely,
A Concerned Doctor
1. They were floored, sir, because they claimed that the virus wasn’t as potent at that point. I don’t think I know anyone who doesn’t realize that chicken pox and shingles are caused by the same virus. Sir.
2. http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/
My appologies, sir… I meant “vaccine-derived polio”, as in not “wild polio”. BTW, sir, polio vaccine isn’t the only one known to actually cause a “vaccine-derived” case of the disease it’s meant to prevent. Research measles, pertussis, chicken pox, and shingles, among others. (Yes, sir, I know, chicken pox and shingles, same virus, but the vaccines are differently labeled. 🙂 Sir.)
Also, sir, don’t believe that it’s been “eradicated” for a second. Oh, wait… “What this means is there are no more new cases of polio caused by the wild strain of polio in India for one whole year.” Wild strain… exactly. There were cases, but they were vaccine-induced, yes?
Also, I really pay no mind to Jenny McCarthy. Pretty much the only thing I know about her is that her son was diagnosed with late-onset autism, and that she is not (repeat, NOT) anti-vaccine, as all the anti-choice folks like to claim. She’s more for cleaning them up. That, in a nutshell, is all I know about her situation in that regard. Also, buzzfeed? It messes with my computer. I don’t go there. NVIC, though, yes.
3. “But basically vaccines are not 100% effective. This is because we are all different, from the DNA in our cells, to the color of our skin. It is this difference that allows us to respond differently to the same stimulus.”
Can you explain to me then, sir, why every child is immunized exactly the same? Why are anti-choice advocates so keen on removing the rights of the parents to decide what schedule, if any, is best for their own child, based on family history and genetics? Sir, are you going to sit there and type to me that MY son developing a potentially very deadly autoimmune disease that WAS attributed by doctors to a vaccine he was given, when he was extremely healthy prior to vaccination and hardly ever sick, was a “necessary risk”? I could just as easily tell you that YOUR child developing measles, which is usually very treatable without incident, is a necessary risk so that MY child doesn’t have to get a vaccine that could cause him to develop a disease that could kill him. But then that wouldn’t make any sense, would it. I don’t go around telling people not to vaccinate their kids. If defending my decision not to vaccinate my kids is seen as me telling people not to vaccinate theirs, a lot of people have some serious reading comprehension issues they need to work through. Or maybe guilt issues, sir. If I, based on family history, information provided IN THE VACCINE INSERTS, and by published medical studies, decide that getting my child vaccinated is too great a risk for MY child, who are you to say otherwise? Incidentally, sir, I don’t read the Onion, and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you what you can do with your assumptions. Sir.
A Concerned Mother, who has actually researched peer-reviewed studies and the manufacturer’s vaccine inserts.
1. It isn’t as potent because it has been hibernating within the cells for so long that it has no opportunity to attack because the immune system is wise to its presence. The real problem with shingles is that it indicates a compromised immune system, which means your family member had another infection or disease process, possibly even a cold, which probably resulted in his/her developing shingles in the first place. Still not a reason to be floored, and still logical that the virus had to be considered contagious at that time.
2. If you read the text in the link you just posted to me, I don’t even have to make my own argument. Here’s what it says, or the important parts of it anyway:
“It takes a long time for a cVDPV to occur. Generally, the strain will have been allowed to circulate in an un- or under-immunized population for a period of at least 12 months. Circulating VDPVs occur when routine or supplementary immunization activities (SIAs) are poorly conducted and a population is left susceptible to poliovirus, whether from vaccine-derived or wild poliovirus. Hence, the problem is not with the vaccine itself, but low vaccination coverage. If a population is fully immunized, they will be protected against both vaccine-derived and wild polioviruses.”
“Circulating VDPVs in the past have been rapidly stopped with 2–3 rounds of high-quality immunization campaigns. The solution is the same for all polio outbreaks: immunize every child several times with the oral vaccine to stop polio transmission, regardless of the origin of the virus.”
If you’re going to cite the WHO in favor of your views, make sure they don’t contradict your views in the same article.
3. We immunize all children the exact same way because in study after study that have been conducted by scientists, the protocols work for majority of people. However, these are only guidelines and are not written in stone. If your doctor sees a reason to not vaccinate your child, he/she does have the power to do so, regardless of what public health policy is at that time. Just because the protocol dictates that we vaccinate a child at 6 weeks doesn’t mean there isn’t wiggle room, but your doctor is the one who should be deciding what that wiggle room will be, NOT the bureaucracy. There are times when we denied immunizing a child for health-related reasons. These included acute illness, immunodeficiency conditions, and even some genetic and metabolic disorders. As far as your son is concerned, an autoimmune disease, much like any other disease, is not and cannot be narrowed down to just one cause. Diseases do not develop because of only one particular agent or event, they are the consequence of the interaction of many factors under the broad triad of HOST, AGENT, and ENVIRONMENT. It is the interaction of these factors, and not just one factor alone that is responsible.
Having said that, there is currently research which has been going on for decades which would allow us to develop genome-specific vaccines. These would be designed to boost your immune system with personally-designed vaccines which were catering to your specific DNA sequence. However, for now this is a pipe dream because the research has been blocked repeatedly by governments and anti-research groups. On the other side, genome sequencing, which would be a pre-requisite for the commercial viability of such vaccines is also progressing slowly because it still costs thousands of dollars and most insurance companies see it as an extravagance rather than medically necessary. Go figure.
1. They were using a steroidal cream prescribed to treat psoriasis, that listed “increased risk of infection” as one of the potential side effects. Even though I’ve been told that this couldn’t have cause the resurgence of the vericella virus, I’m still incredibly skeptical. It’s not the first time I’ve heard or read that someone developed shingles taking a prescription steroid or using a steroid cream.
2. That’s the spin put on it, just like the general “vaccines are safe” spin… which has been proven (to me) to be untrue, in a very personal way. There are tons of other links about it that I could have posted that provide other information… such as that they wouldn’t call it “polio” for a long time, because they didn’t want to admit that the vaccines could cause paralytic polio in some children. Just like the cases that have been showing up in CA over the years, they were calling it “a polio-like virus”.
3. “However, these are only guidelines and are not written in stone.” And that is why the Offits of the world are trying to do away with a parent’s right to choose a delayed schedule? Apparently, there are those that would very much like it to be “set in stone”, and to force it on all children, even if their parents (like me) feel that family history should give them the right to say no. Until something dreadful happens, and if they’re lucky their child doesn’t actually die from it. My child was lucky. He’s very active and could easily have hurt himself in such a manner that would have caused a brain hemorrhage, which could have resulted in permanent brain damage or death. That’s why he was kept in the hospital until the danger of that happening was reduced.
Now I’m told by one doctor that the event shouldn’t be a contraindication for further MMR shots, by another that it absolutely is a contraindication, but that there shouldn’t be a contraindication for his sibling, or for any other shots. But they do agree that his autoimmune disease was caused by the shot. He was hardly ever sick prior to that, and when he was he got over it quickly and with little discomfort. All of a sudden he’s missed 2 and 3 days out of the two weeks following for fever, then the entire 3rd week because of dangerously low platelets, a condition listed as a reaction by the vaccine manufacturer.
I’ve had little experience with medical personnel that has given me any confidence that I should take anything they tell me as gospel, and now I get conflicting advice from them about the safety of my child. It’s not looking any better. It seems the only thing I can trust for sure is that they’re right about the cause of my son’s condition.
1. My original premise holds. If your doctors had dug deeper, they would have found the reason to withhold vaccination until they had more information. Basically psoriasis at its fundamental foundation is an autoimmune condition which has genetic consequences. The immune system is compromised and is hyperactive. We give steroids to control that hyperactivity, and in severe cases, topical may not be effective enough so we give oral steroids to prevent a psoriasis attack. Now steroids do not do anything but suppress the immune system. What does this mean? It means any dormant infection in the body is now capable of reactivating. Your relative was basically the perfect incubator for varicella zoster infection that followed. Still logical the virus had to be considered contagious especially considering a relative has a compromised immune system, until further information was obtained about your children. Now this might never have happened because unfortunately the technology that has been developed which would allow us to treat specifically for a genome is expensive and not covered by insurance companies, which I presume is how you pay for your healthcare. On the other side, the doctor has to see many patients and in the current system therefore doesn’t have the time to dig so deeply into your history. You want that kind of service you don’t need to stop vaccinating, you need a better healthcare system in which doctors and patients are put back in the drivers seat of healthcare. Not your insurance company. As long as you are doing research to find the cause of a problem, dig till you get to the core problem, don’t stop halfway where you find opportunity to blame the people who try every day to plug holes in a leaky ship (which is just what the US healthcare system is).
2. See, this is the whole problem with your argument over this point. This is a spin. First you used this article to demonstrate how your point is proven. Now when I say it doesn’t prove your argument it only strengthens mine it is spin? What faulty logic is that? The vaccine strain was not shown to be infecting the population. Give me one link from a certified scientist, scientific body, who’s primary concern is SCIENTIFIC with case control studies, using the scientific method, and I will reconsider my position and research it myself. I think I have already demonstrated that I take your opinions seriously, I read the links you send me, and I analyze them with a thoroughness and patience other people lack. I will continue to do so because my belief is if I can convince you, I have convinced 100 other people. Same thing, if you convince me, as a doctor, to correct my view, I will start advocating due diligence on the part of health professionals like me when it comes to vaccination programs. However, I first need scientific proof from a neutral body regarding this. This is not a wholly unreasonable demand, it is the prerequisite for any research which uses the scientific method and wishes to be taken seriously by the world at large. And on an issue as important as this, it would be criminal of me to ignore sound scientific data because I do not wish to see it. But beyond the link you showed me, I continued to research in link after link from recognized medical bodies and could not find one which stated that stopping vaccination programs was the solution to vaccine derived diseases.
3. It sounds to me like your son had a reaction called Immune Thrombocytopenic Purpura. It is self-limiting and a number of cases do not even receive medical attention because the reaction is mild. However, it is a precautionary measure to avoid any live attenuated vaccine because viral infections can result in ITP. However, this is only applicable to live attenuated vaccines which in the current immunization schedule would include the following: MMR, Varicella, Oral Polio, FluMist, Typhoid. Out of these, the first 3 are required in the USA and are not given in immune compromised patients. But just because a vaccine doesn’t work for your son, doesn’t mean that it isn’t working for others.
The whole spectrum of preventive medicine revolves around teamwork between people. Think of it like defending a brick wall from invaders. If you get a hole in the wall, you don’t tear down the rest of the wall to accommodate that hole. You bring in temporary fixes until a permanent solution is made. What you don’t do is say “alright, they made a hole, so let’s just let the whole thing go to waste.” What you do say is “bring in the lumber, continue to hold the line, and let’s call the masons”.
First off, most organisms that cause childhood infections are viruses, and second, they’re not all “dead”. The measles vaccine is based on the measles *virus* and it’s “live”, similarly pertussis is based on an attenuated (weakened but viable/live–you know viruses aren’t really “live” but depend on their host for reproduction, but whatever), and here yes, we have a bacteria.
No one in CDC or FDA pretends that vaccinated individuals can’t shed.
I think it’s you that needs to get on these websites to do your research! There’s a baboon-pertussis study referenced on FDA, I think it is, where pertussis was shown to shed for up to 6 weeks following vaccination.
The current pertussis vaccine is acellular, it doesn’t contain the whole bacteria cell, and isn’t live or viable. The old vaccine was a whole cell vaccine, but there were complications with it so they changed to a less effective, but safer acellular vaccine. That’s what the “a” in DTaP stands for.
I love the toxin argument. Did you know there is naturally occurring formaldehyde in apples? Do you feed your children apples? And you do not believe in herd immunity? It is a thing, and it isn’t really up for debate. Much like the earth is round and revolves around the sun. You need to read and decide which is more plausible. Or visit places where these conditions exist.
I think you have that screwed up Moladood. It’s not formaldehyde in apples, it’s Methanol, but the apple also carries ethanol, which is the antidote to methanol poisoning. And Scott Nelson, I see you don’t have the entire list of what’s in all the vaccines, much more than what you just copied and pasted. lol. And yes, I could break down fruit for you if you’d like, but why would I waste my time doing that? Fruit is healthy as long as it’s not created by Monsatan, uh, Monsanto, because GOD created it, not man. OMG, I can’t believe how blinded you all are. And to the woman who said I was not following God’s path, how can you say that, when it sounds like you are not even a believer. I am a true follower of God and I listen to what he tells me and yep, he said stay away from the poisons of MAN!
Umm-if you say I’m omitting something, its incumbent upon you to tell me what it is I’m omitting. Assertions without documentation are basically an ad hominem attack-(or perhaps its a bit difficult to find the compositional analysis of any fruit). The FDA would like to know too. In Gardasil the proteins are synthesized by yeast (not sure if it S. cerevisiae or P. pastoris), purified, and compounded into the vaccine. Both of the yeast can grow on very minimal media-sugar, water and a few amino acids.
FYI, methanol is oxidized in the body by alcohol dehydrogenase to formaldhyde-which is why moonshine sometimes caused blindness, people would cut moonshine with wood alcohol, aka methanol. Ethanol is antidotal because it occupies the enzyme (saturates if you want the technical term) allowing the methanol to be excreted unchanged by the kidneys.
Science doesn’t really care about any god, as gods by definition act outside the laws of nature, and science only concerns itself with that which is verifiable and reproducible
FYI, methanol is oxidized in the body by alcohol dehydrogenase to formaldhyde-which is why moonshine sometimes caused blindness, people would cut moonshine with wood alcohol, aka methanol. Ethanol is antidotal because it occupies the enzyme (saturates if you want the technical term) allowing the methanol to be excreted unchanged by the kidneys.
And that’s exactly components of Aspartame as well Scott. You talk too much like a big Pharma Shill for me to take heed to anything you say. And the fact that you say Science doesn’t rely on any God’s, oh yes, this I know, but trust me, you will all shudder in your boots along with the other evil ones, when that GOD does come back. And this is the exact reason, why I would never buy into anything that you say. As to the other ingredients in vaccines, all you have to do is google truth about vaccines or vaccine ingredients and you will find the ingredients in each and every one of them, and they are more than you mentioned. I personally know of a number of women who took that Gardasil vaccine and they are maimed for life. I am not sure you are aware that many years ago, the FDA admitted that the vaginal warts did NOT cause cancer. And yet, they still push this crap. I have seen many horror stories and even know some who have died from those rounds of jabs. Since the FDA has admitted to not having the manpower to keep up with the safety of drugs, do you think I trust them any more than I trust you? No, sure don’t. lol You will never convince anyone who has the heart of God or any sense at all, to take these vaccines. You are all liars and of Satan and that’s a fact! And if you “people” don’t like the replies of people who do not vaccinate, then don’t reply. I think we are all very aware there are two sides here, yours and the ones who don’t believe you, so be done with this stupid garbage.
“You talk too much like a big Pharma Shill for me to take heed to anything you say. “. What Scott said is basic chemistry, understood by college sophomores around the country.
Actually, I wish I was a Big Pharma shill. The pay is much better, but I’ve spent all 26 years of my post-grad life on soft money. I’ll let others tell you how well that pays
I respect everyone’s right to their religious beliefs. If you are saying you don’t vaccinate due to your religion then I will respect that. Can you enlighten us with a bible quote that states where “God” said not to vaccinate? Or even where “He” said “stay away from the poisons of man”?! You can’t just make stuff up and say “God told me” and expect to be taken seriously.
What if God… is the lie…….
I guess the world health organization screwed up since it was the source of below.
Click to access formaldehyde.pdf
Apples, apricots, bananas, beef, mushrooms, onions, cows milk, cheese, shrimp among many others indicated have naturally occurring formaldehyde in varying levels. Most formaldehyde we ingest though is by inhaling.
Apparently an infants blood contains more formaldehyde naturally than is contained in a vaccination. And it has a short half life.
Article, with references: http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/formaldehyde.html
Um, formaldehyde is a chemical compound found in nature. It is not cellular and does not have a genetic structure, so it can’t be a Genetically Modified Organism.
Uh, BULL!
So according to you formaldehyde has dna? Oh dear!
Oh dear….
The Moladood Abides!
There may be confusion here, since formaldehyde is also called methanal. So while there is methanol in apples, there is also methanal (ie formaldehyde).
>Who does not vaccinate her children at all.
Just as evil as the anti-vaxxers nonetheless!
Too be honest lady, it shouldn’t be your right to choose if your child should get vaccines or not, it should be mandatory because of people like you putting them in danger.
I am even starting to think you did not read the article or the links!
I’d say I’m sorry, but I’m not, your intelligence and lack thereof makes me afraid.
Bill Mcgee, I am not the one you spoke back to but just going to put in my two cents worth! It is everyone’s right to choose to do with their bodies what they want to do, not any Dr., big Pharma or the government. Trust me though, forced vaccines are all in the plan when it comes to the government. However, they have to catch me first. LOL I bet all you people who vaccinate and fall for all that the world tells you, also voted in Obama who is destroying America a piece at a time and I bet you have no clue what they are even up to. You people scare me, as you clearly lack wisdom!
Funny, because your lack of wisdom is the only reason I don’t find you scary.
Is that all you have Ryan?? LOL Because I DO find you scary, because dumbed down Obama voters is what has America perishing right before our eyes.
” Trust me though, forced vaccines are all in the plan when it comes to the government”
What is your evidence of this?
Why should we trust you on this subject when it’s clear you haven’t arrived at your opinions based on evidence?
” I bet all you people who vaccinate and fall for all that the world tells you, also voted in Obama who is destroying America a piece at a time and I bet you have no clue what they are even up to. ”
It’s ironic that you’re accusing others of “falling for all that the world tells you” when you go on to spout a far right talking point that bears little resemblance to reality.
You’ve been watching too much FOX News.
There’s a new definition of “wisdom,” apparently, that involves restating your position over and over and over and over and over, while ignoring the valid points of others and proffering absolutely nil in the way of proof. By now, I’d settle for some sound reasoning, even. This is exactly like teaching the MR children I work with. There’s just no one home, poor babies. I’m with the concussion girl. Scott Nelson, you’re my kind of guy. Marry me!
Oh, and the ancient Egyptians used beer as medicine, also my kind of guys! … and lead-based eyeliner — totally natural, mind you. I want to go back to the old-fashioned god-fearing days when people died properly of syphilis as god intended.
politics != science
So what you’re saying is that I had no right to choose not to vaccinate my child out of fear that they might develop an autoimmune disease… even though that is precisely what happened when I was finally bullied into allowing them to be vaccinated? My child spent 3 nights in the hospital with dangerously low platelets because a vaccine sent his immune system into overdrive. Before you try to say it wasn’t the vaccine, it’s a well-known reaction that is even listed as such on the vaccine insert that comes from the manufacturer. Even the doctors treating him said it was the cause.
Your child had an adverse reaction-,Thrombocytopenia purpura,-nobody has ever said that vaccines were totally without side-effects. I would hope that you would consult an immunologist in the future as to whether vaccinations should continue, or if you should rely on herd immunity.
Let’s see… my son was hospitalized with a life-threatening reaction to a vaccine that I was told was safe… a reaction that I was concerned about prior to vaccination, but was assured “the risk is tiny”. The risk, for my child, was 100%. I should hope that any parent who’s child had such a life-threatening reaction would choose not to risk their child further, but that is the parents’ decision.
Two words: natural selection.
But where did you read this lol? some pseudoscience website run by jenny mccarthy?
you just said what I thought to respond when I read this article; It seems to me that this person has believed what she/he wrote; her/his opinion. It is interesting to me that Jennifer by her article believes pharmaceutical companies are perfect; that their motives are perfect; that they really care for the interest of our children; when most likely they only care about the bottom line; profits. 1 in every 68 children acquire autism; and who knows what other array of diseases. Any reasonable person/company would at least admit that maybe their product is defective; and that maybe it is destroying our kids’ lives and future. Just maybe.
Really? I said pharmaceutical companies are perfect? Did I say that, or is that the story you need to hear to justify ignoring what I wrote?
I think,if you love your kids,you will find more about this topic and understand that you are doing your kids bad…did you ever heard about whooping cough? i expect you didnt,and it is because of vaccination,and you should also read more about what it is in this vaccinations,and how much,and WHY!!!!! you fucking dumbass!!! because of stupid people like you there are still this deathly illness in world!!!!!!!!!!!!! and forgive me for my writing english is not my native language.
Are you really claiming that whooping cough is caused by a vaccine (nevermind the fact that you don’t mention *which* vaccine you’re talking about)?
As you can see from here:
http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/fast-facts.html
there is no mention of a vaccine causing pertussis. Do you have a source for your claim? If not, perhaps you should retract it until you do.
Yep, I sure heard about the whooping cough. It had its biggest comeback in 2013 and that’s when my children had it. Full on, for two long months. No complications whatsoever.
Pertussis is not a particularly deadly disease. For babies it can be bad, but they can’t really be vaccinated and would ideally be protected by antibodies in a mother’s milk (provided she had the natural infection and provided she’s not too neglectful to choose formula over breastfeeding). Caretakers of small babies are advised to be vaccinated two weeks prior to first contact despite the fact that the vaccine has been shown to shed for up to 6 weeks (check the FDA recent study on baboons). Very smart.
Except that it doesn’t say anything of the sort. The study says that the infant baboons received significant protection from their mothers antibodies, which the mother had developed AFTER BEING VACCINATED. It also notes that the pertussis bacteria was able to colonize the respiratory tract of the infants, but was unable to make them symptomatic.
The respiratory tracts became colonized because the scientists doing the study intentionally introduced live pertussis bacteria to the infants, which were not present in the ACELLULAR vaccine. Vaccinated individuals can become asymptomatic carriers for the bacteria, if they contract it after being vaccinated. Somehow the anti-vaccine movement has contorted this effect (not getting sick) into a bad thing, and a reason not to get vaccinated. You know what happens when an unvaccinated baboon with no maternal antibodies is exposed to pertussis? They become a symptomatic carrier: they get whooping cough. They cannot develop whooping cough from the acellular vaccine, for the simple reason that the vaccine doesn’t have the bacteria in it. It has small parts of the bacteria cell to produce an immune response, but those parts are unable to reconstitute into live bacteria, or produce disease by themselves.
Great job Rosa, you successfully spread summary misinformation drawn from uneducated conclusions. You should feel so proud.
Ignorance is bliss… or fear and paranoia as it would appear in your case.
Lol. There really is no point in arguing. There is even a study to prove it.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365.abstract
But in all seriousness, hopefully some of the info helps some people make more informed decisions.
LOL, right, no sense in arguing and I’ve had enough of fake studies and info that I can possibly take. You all need to give it up as you will never convince me and many others that vaccines are good!
If you were doing a study to test this question, how would YOU design it?
And there it is. “you will never convince me”
With that, you have by definition, stopped thinking on the subject.
Science is the discovery, collection and distribution of new information.
You have openly declared that you will intentionally ignore or repel any new information.
Please tell us on what basis you have ever changed your mind on ANY topic (Ford vs Chevy, Whole Milk vs 2%, Cable or Satellite, it doesn’t matter what topic), and then explain why this topic is so different that you would declare you are completely unwilling to look at new information that comes along.
You have to remember that the original study that first suggested that the MMR vaccine causes autism was written by one man who wasn’t even a real doctor or researcher and was paid by pharmaceutical companies to do it. The whole idea was a lie from the beginning, and many studies have proven it false. It was because of over emphasized media coverage and celebrity support that the idea became such a controversial issue.
I support any parents decision when it comes to choosing weather or not to vaccinate. After all, I was completely un-vaccinated until perusing my career in Registered Nursing, as this was my mother’s prerogative. That is your choice and you have a right to make that choice. But I do get a little heated when that choice is based solely on the idea that vaccines cause autism. This is false evidence and has no credible base to it whatsoever.
And I will agree with worrying parents about possible side effects of vaccines. It is true, there are possible side effects. Even if the chances of your child experiencing these side effects are slim to none, I can understand the worry that a parent might have with even a 1 in a million chance. It can be scary and you don’t want to put your child at risk no matter how small it is.
But please remember that although getting your children vaccinated to prevent disease is not a perfect option, at this point in time, it is the best and most effective option we have. I know you fear the risk of side effect of vaccines for your children’s sake, but please remember that when you choose to not vaccinate and you encourage others to do the same, you effect the safety of communities, cities, and nations. Lack of vaccination to those who are healthy to do so greatly decreases the heard immunity and puts at risk those who are immunocompromised and those who cannot otherwise receive vaccinations due to allergies. If an outbreak were to occur, the health and safety of all the un-vaccinated individuals and at-risk persons is greatly compromised. It is at this point that the choice to vaccinate becomes a very deep and ethical discussion.
I support the right to free choice in this matter, but please do not write off vaccines due to false evidence. Make the choice however you choose, but please be informed when doing so.
+1
So why are you here? If you are set in your belief system then why waste your time? It’s like cheering for the visiting team and yelling how you will never cheer for the home team.
There was a time when you couldn’t convince the church the earth was round. Only time will tell which side of history you will be on.
You are an asshole.
Maybe you are the A hole, ever think about that? Now see Jennifer Raff, THIS is the offensive language!
Why is it important if you believe in herd immunity? It exists whether or not you believe in it. Do you have a better explanation of why fewer people get sick with diseases after vaccines for those diseases are created and widely used?
Not whether it exists, rather; whether it works and to what degree. Keep in mind that the concept of Herd Immunity first involved cycles of natural infection – prior to vaccines.
Once vaccines showed up the term began being used by doctors to scare the public into ‘doing their civic duty’. The effecaciousness of vaccines under the guise of herd immunity has been challenged due to eruptions of measles in the USA in populations that were 100 percent vaccinated. Even so there are countless anecdotes (personal experiences) that contradict such, and while not ‘scientific’ proof, it does provide for more intimate reasoning.
Herd immunity isn’t a vaccine concept. If 19 kids in a class of 20 have had chicken pox previously, it becomes much harder for the 1 person that didn’t to get it. Its a simple mathematics problem. Is it 100% effective, no. The child could get it outside of school at a park or friends but if that same ratio of 19:1 exists in the park or general population, it becomes less and less likely. Its not rocket science to reason that the more people immune that can’t get, carry or transmit, the less likely someone not immune can get it.
Correct…it isn’t a vaccination concept – its a natural immunity concept, nor is it ever guaranteed ‘for life’ (depending on the disease). If 19 out of 20 kids have previously had Chicken Pox, then they develop a natural shield against ever getting it again, thus lowering the likelihood of #20 getting it. This accurately defies herd immunity – but at the cost of 19 children having already been sick.
Now, if 19 out of 20 kids were vaccinated, the immunity caused by the vaccine isn’t nearly as robust as a natural immunity, and in some cases will actually cause the injected to get sick and express symptoms, in some cases they will remain a carrier. The ‘herd immunity’ is simply not as strong, leaving #20 at a much higher risk of getting the disease. Where ‘herd immunity’ via vaccination is concerned is that boosters are required to provide a longer span of protection for the herd.
Natural immunities within a population will eradicate a disease, immunity by way of vaccinations will cause it to stick around, and perhaps even mutate. At least this is according to the guy who invented the term.
armothe,
“Natural immunities within a population will eradicate a disease”
Unless I’m misunderstanding something about what was said, this statement is proven false by the fact that there were/are diseases in populations that were/are not vaccinated.
In other words, if that was true, there would have been no diseases in any population (humans or other animals) after the first epidemic of any particular disease. There very existence of polio, rubella, measles, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, tetanus, diphtheria, pertusis before the modern vaccine era seems to disprove the statement above. And the clear reduction in the new cases of such diseases after an immunization program (years ago in the US, and happening now in some parts of the world) would also seem to prove this statement wrong.
So I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean it the way I am (and maybe many others are) reading that. Please help us out by explaining what you did mean.
gewisn: I suppose its best to say that a disease can never, truly be eradicated. Nature is too vast. So I use ‘eradicate’ in the sense that a certain population (or herd) may never contract such disease ever again.
Yes, to eradicate a disease via natural herd immunity, a portion of the population must first contract the disease. This natural immunity stands a better chance at fending off further outbreaks when coming into contact with other populations or mutations. Over time it is more than likely a portion of the herd will come into contact with the same disease (or a mutation of) and contract a much more minor instance of the disease – because their systems were already equipped to fight them off. As matter of fact, continuing exposure can only help to strengthen natural immunity; hence help to prevent full fledged outbreaks among the rest of the herd population.
What you are speaking of requires outbreaks among multiple herds (for the entire world cannot be thought of as a single herd) or subsequent generations of the same herd. This is why it is easy to observe outbreaks of the same disease (or perhaps mutated) among other herds, or new generations of the same herd.
Vaccines are similar. The Herd population still contracts the disease, but the hope is that the symptoms remain minor and non-life threatening as antibodies are created. The re-introduction of Booster shots at certain increments along the herd’s lifespan simulate continued exposure to keep immunity strong.
The main difference is that vaccines are injected into the bloodstream, bypassing the respiratory and digestive systems – both crucial to the first line of defense against disease – causing them to never become familiar with (and stronger against) such. There is current research on delivery methods to better simulate natural exposure.
The second difference is that vaccines have side effects. So a person is faced with a choice: % likelihood of getting disease & symptoms + % it will be a life-threatening case vs % they will have a reaction to any side effects + % symptoms from the vaccine. That is to say – does one take a risk up front to prevent a risk later.
The third difference is that vaccines are created by fallible humans, while diseases & the immune system have developed from nature over millions of years; or as some believe, by an intelligent being.
Your parents vaccinated you and you are still here and well…are you not??
No. I was vaccine injured as well and my parents didn’t tell me until my child was vaccine injured. My parents finally came around and no longer vaccinate themselves, thank goodness. I have bad health as a result but my parents just lied to me for years until my child was injured.
And the nature of the injury is….?
I wish I had known all of this before my child got vaccine brain injury. YOU GO GIRL!
You are not just wrong, you are stupid, an indolent, self glorified ignorant. You lack the intellectual capacity to even comprehend the depth and magnitude of your own insipid stupidity.
From this point on, I am going to attempt to use words I would use for an elementary school student, which is where I am charitably assuming your comprehension of critical thought and understanding of scientific knowledge lies. Note that I did not choose to go for kindergarten, please do not make me regret that choice.
Ok, so people get sick from two things, germs and viruses. For now, we are going to talk about only germs. People get sick from germs in many ways, mostly from other people who are sick. If you get sick from another sick person, you will be sick because of the same bacteria.
Now, when you are sick, your body has what are called white blood cells. A cell, if you don’t know, is a really, really small part of your body, and all the cells in your body make up you. These white blood cells go around your body, and find and destroy germs.
Now, when a white blood cell destroys a germ, some of these white blood cells remember the germ they destroyed, and keep a way to destroy that germ in case you get sick from it again. You don’t often get sick from the same germ more than once! This is called an immunity, and is important for the next part.
Do you remember going to the doctor and getting a shot? You were most likely given what is called a vaccine. Vaccines are a way to trick your body into thinking it got sick, without actually getting sick. Some vaccines have dead germs in them, meaning your white blood cells will destroy the dead germs and remember them, just like if it actually fought the germs and won. Sometimes, vaccines don’t even have the dead germ in them, but tiny parts of the germs skin, which make your white blood cells respond in the same way. You can’t get sick from a vaccine that doesn’t contain something to get sick from!
Sometimes, your body doesn’t like the vaccine, and reacts to it. This does not happen often, but when it does, is called a side effect. Some germs cause you to feel sick, but sometimes, your own body makes itself sick to make it hard for the germs to live in you. If you have had a cold, you might remember the stuffy nose. Those boogers are full of germs, trapped so your body can get rid of them. Sometimes, when you get a vaccine, your body reacts as though it was actually sick, and tries to make living hard for the germs! Some of these side effects are common, others are so rare, it is hard to know if they are even related to the vaccine.
Now, I heard one of you say something about monkeys, cows, and pigs. It is true that vaccines are grown in things that are not people. This is called growing in a medium. Germs need to eat to live, even though they are very small. With nothing to grow on, germs would die before they could be put into a vaccine. She was incorrect when she worried about DNA (Do you remember what DNA is?) doing bad things to you. After all, most of you probably eat eggs and steak a lot of times!
Well, I said a lot today. Do any of you have questions?
It has already been disproven that autism is caused by vaccines. Please clarify then what other diseases are caused by vaccines and cite your sources. Furthermore, what diseases have your children picked up from vaccinated children?
And you just proved her point…. Did you even bother to read any of the links she posted? Have you talked to any older people who remember life before vaccines? Have you seen a child with measles, influenza, or whooping cough? Some of them DIE. Vaccines most certainly work, and you are risking your child’s life on your opinion.
The links were for websites (I think we all could find websites to support our own personal views) and published research articles from a doctor who has ties with Merck. I would be skeptical of trusting these sources. If you actually read them you would be too.
Which doctor, and what ties to Merck? Aside from that, what specifically makes you skeptical of these articles?
Colin, did you read the articles? The two published papers posted in this article are written by the same doctor and it clearly states that he has ties with Merck. That alone is enough to make me skeptical. How can you believe any of that information to be unbiased with such a major conflict of interest?
I asked you for specifics because it’s not clear to me what you’re talking about–your answer is no help at all. “The two published papers”? There are a lot more than two papers cited in this post, and many more than two authors. What articles, what doctor, and what ties with Merck?
I find it funny that the parent above took the time to look up ingredients but didn’t bother educating herself on the fact that the doctor that linked autism. To vaccinations has since had his theory disproven an had his license stopped for altering Those results. Maybe try reading something other than a Jenny McCarthy interview in people magazine & a wiki how search when “educating” youself on the origin of disease.
Your “belief” is immaterial. Where is your proof? In the 1920’s & 1930’s: 250,000 cases of whooping cough, 9,000 deaths. Vaccines started in the 40’s and by the 70’s incidents of whooping cough had reduced by 99%. In 2012 there were 255 deaths. Ridiculous. I believe, no wait, I KNOW you’re wrong. I really want to hear your comments after you watch the boy with whooping cough struggling to breathe. Your comments are so ignorant, but it’s something I’ll admit I haven’t heard thrown around much in the pseudo-debate. (I say pseudo, because only one side has the science behind it.) No one has ever, every gotten sick because I injected my child. Your children get more poisoned eating button mushrooms (that contain carcinogens) and ingest more germs swallowing their own spit. Before you tell me you don’t give your kid mushrooms or let them swallow, I’ll make the point clearer. Your logic is faulty. Preventable childhood illness used to kill babies, children and adults. And while I agree that there are a couple they push too quickly (varicella mostly), there isn’t any room for arguing that vaccines are absolutely effective, not because I BELIEVE it, but because I can prove it. And I don’t think chicken pox is something we should vaccinate for, again, because of the numbers. Children don’t usually die from chicken pox; they die from secondary infections they pick up in the hospital when they require treatment for chicken pox. Those numbers are too small to justify inoculating millions, in my opinion, especially since no one knows about their vaccine’s efficacy in later years of life. You may not agree with me, but at least we can toss some numbers around. I’m the last generation to have my smallpox scar. You’re welcome for that. And I’m not moved by the side effect argument against not vaccinating ALL children because of the extremely RARE side effects. Also know that I say this as someone who has suffered a life-threatening complication from the very same smallpox vaccine. Despite some concerns, it is the single best thing to ensure your children survive into adults who can grow up and post idiotic comments on the internet. It’s right up there with antibiotics. I try to let logic and scientific proof guide my decision-making, rather than unsubstantiated whackjob accusations like vaccinated children are making your children sick. (WTH?) You should try it. It’s your children, unvaccinated by choice, who are making measles outbreaks common, not only among your own whackjob population, but among those who truly cannot be vaccinated. You are quite simply misinformed. I’m betting you didn’t read a single link. The last case of smallpox was in 1977 — in Somalia. Maybe you could move there so your kids could be protected from all our Western diseases and catch wonderfully life-threatening diseases in a completely natural way. It’s the relative luxury and strong public health system here in the US that affords you the luxury of posting stupid crap on the internet.
Don’t forget that they also culture vaccines on Human Diploid Cells made from 2 Aborted Fetuses so everytime a child or adult for that matter injects a vaccine into the body you are actually injecting another humans DNA into your system which then plays havoc on your own DNA and Immune System.
I was going to reply but then thought why bother.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365.abstract
Dear Anonymous Parent,
Perhaps I should try to explain herd immunity to you as it doesn’t apply to all vaccines. The best example of herd immunity working is the Polio vaccine. The polio vaccine comes in two forms (oral and injected). The injected vaccine is a killed virus. This means it is incapable of producing disease since it cannot replicate and damage cells. However, it is entirely possible that there may be a mistake in the manufacturing process which allows the virus to remain alive. However, there are rigorous safety protocols to follow and this rarely happens, and if it does, just like with a dangerous car, doctors do not buy the vaccine from that company again. Also, the polio vaccine is not patented and does not provide a huge margin of profit for pharmaceutical companies to produce, and in fact some companies produce it at a loss because the government subsidizes their production costs. But this again, produces good self-immunity, but not herd immunity. The oral polio vaccine is the one which best produces herd immunity. You see, the oral polio vaccine is a live attenuated virus. A live attenuated virus is a different strain of the polio virus which has been shown to be less effective or incapable of producing an infection. Basically this oral vaccine contains viruses which infect the lining of the gut. In doing so, the virus prevents the “wild” strain of the polio virus, which is the real deadly strain from entering the body because these “tame” strains already occupy the space available for the “wild” strain. Think of it like this: to keep weeds out of a garden, you plant grass and trees. You do this because you can control grass and trees and restrict their growth. You cannot restrict the growth of weeds so deprive them of fertile soil to grow. Basically, the “tame” strain of polio occupies the cells and doesn’t allow the “wild” strain to thrive. When this happens, the wild strain does not have a home, and slowly dies because it cannot reproduce at a rate which will ensure its survival. However, till that happens, the virus is shed by the body, and unvaccinated individuals can become infected. This is why every child is vaccinated as soon as they are at an age at which vulnerability to polio is proven to exist. When enough people are vaccinated, the whole population is protected but that doesn’t mean you can stop the vaccination. This is because we do not fully understand the life cycle of the viruses. We have stopped replication in humans, but polio also has several animal reservoirs which allow them to reproduce and stay alive. As long as these exist, we cannot stop vaccination. However, we say polio has been eradicated from the United States because the wild strain has not produced any new disease. However, in order to keep it that way, the guard must be kept up. Just like you keep the weeds in your garden from growing by supporting the grass and trees, we keep vaccinating to provide a wall of defense. I hope this has convinced you to read a bit more scientifically about vaccines.
Sincerely,
Dr. Anonymous
Dr. Anonymous–I’m really interested in hearing more about your experiences in the field. If you have time, shoot me an email? (jenniferraff at utexas dot edu)
So … let me get this straight … you believe that we parents who do vaccinate are having our children injected with Monkey and Cow DNA and that vaccinated children make your kids sick? Please … where the heck do you get your research from?
I ask this because I have had the whooping cough back when I was about 17 months old. I was vaccinated, thank bloody God I say! Or I wouldn’t be here.
Bet you any money you’re also in the stupid belief that vaccination causes Autism. Well, guess what sunshine, that was debunked and discredited. Coming from a parent who has a child with Autism and has done more research on the Disorder than you probably have on vaccinations.
But … go ahead, believe your fantasy that we who vaccinated make your kids sick.
Have you read the list of ingredients? It’s not only listed in the vaccine inserts (which you can find on each of the respective manufacturer’s websites), but the CDC (and I think the FDA) also have lists posted. Just read the ingredients, even if you don’t care to read the rest of the inserts that explain the potential reactions and the contraindications.
Concerned Mom–but the concentration of each ingredient matters! As we’ve said many times, the amount of the components in each vaccine that you find frightening is FAR less than what you are exposed to every single day, even in “natural” foods. Simply reading a list of ingredients is very misleading– you have to understand how they react in the body, and how much is unsafe to know whether they will hurt you. And that’s something that the regulatory agencies test very thoroughly.
Could you please explain what each of the ingredients in the MMR (for example) are supposed to accomplish?
Also, if you read the comment I was responding to, they were basically calling someone a liar with regard to the animal tissues (and aborted fetal tissue) used in the process of creating the vaccines. Those are also listed on the inserts. Are you suggesting that none of the residues from those animal/human tissues are left in the finished product?
That being said, I’m still interested in your response to my previous request. 🙂
Good for you, Concerned Mom! It sounds like you have taken the time to do some research. Those who question the safety of vaccines are actually some of the most well educated.
It’s not such a black and white topic as everyone is making it out to be. There are a lot of gray areas. Sure, they were meant to do good but has this gone too far? I think it’s only wise to question how safe vaccines are considering there is no good research showing their safety. Have they tested the safety of each individual component? No. Do they use placebos that are saline? No, the placebos contain some of the vaccine ingredients. How is that good science? There is flawed, biased research out there..and for those who clicked
on the links they should have seen this. There was no relevant research posted in Jennifer’s article. Those telling the “anti vacciners” to read should be doing the reading themselves. The doctor who wrote 2 of the published articles is affiliated with Merck.
“Those who question the safety of vaccines are actually some of the most well educated.”
This isn’t actually true. The most well educated people about vaccine safety and efficacy are epidemiologists, infectious disease doctors, and other experts who perform the research and are trained to analyze the results. They vaccinate their kids.
Out of interest, anti-vaccine parents, if your child was going to a developing country where there is a much higher risk of falling ill from diseases such as Hepatitis, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Meningitis and Rabies, would you allow them to have vaccines against these?
It would depend on ALL the different variables. How hearty is the child’s immune system? (At this moment, my children’s immune systems have been compromised. They won’t be traveling outside the country until that is corrected.) How are the diseases contracted, and how easily prevented (with/without vaccination), and what are the chances they’ll get it. What are the risks of each disease, and the risks of each vaccine?
Not long ago, an unvaccinated relative went to Thailand. There were a bunch of vaccines that were recommended, but they chose not to. They returned having been uninfected by any of the diseases that he was warned about, and unscathed they the trip.
So you will individually rate all these factors based on Google searches I presume and then base your children’s risk factors on these? Anti-vaccine movement always complains about big business, do you think tourism is not big business? They also have a vested interest to make travel to their country safe so do they report all cases?
As far as your relative, I am happy they didn’t get sick but you also don’t always die when you play Russian roulette but is that evidence that you should play it or that it is a safe activity to be involved in?
You know what they say about people that “assume”, moladood. 😉
I would base my decision on the information provided in the vaccine insert, and family history (as I’ve been doing), on information posted on the WHO site for the area I might be planning to visit (they do list the number of infections for various diseases in different regions), etc.
If you’re going to pretend to be honest, at least admit that vaccination is also a game of Russian roulette. My child already lost one game of it, and if it comes down to it, I’d just as soon stay home if I were worried about his risk factors elsewhere.
Also, I’d like to point out that your ASSumption that I’m anti-vaxx is incorrect. I don’t go around telling other parents what to do with their children. It’s not my business, just as it’s not yours.
My 4 year old son was diagnosed with Aspergers 2 weeks before getting his MMR vaccine. He is the healthiest child that I have known. He doesn’t get colds and the last time that I gave him Tylenol was when he was teething.My mother has 9 grandchildren and has also mentioned his health.I am not saying one way or the other regarding vaccines and autism. I commend any parent who takes care of their children. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is what makes America great.My grandma lost a child and an infant on diseases that would have saved their lives if vaccines were available. One was influenza and the other was pneumonia due to pertussis (whooping cough).
Just a suggestion… you may want to research new information emerging regarding possible higher risk (for boys, especially) to develop ASD, learning delays, ADD/ADHD, etc. if given the Hep B shot at birth. I’m not saying that’s what happened with your son, but it’s worth looking into.
Is there a link ie causation? No. Your just supplying mis-information and obfuscation. Your response is like the Taliban trying to stop polio vaccination because it is un-islamic and causes impotence in Muslims. Your pseudoscience, Concerned Mom, is the same.
An anti-vaxxer is an irrational mistrust of vaccines. It’s a fashionable thing in places where people have forgotten the horror of diseases like polio because of the success of vaccines.
The An anti-vaxxer position is not only wrong but unethical.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170
First of all, that ^^.
Second of all, I never said I was an anti-vaxxer. I’ve never told anyone “DON’T VACCINATE!” I’ve suggested to people that they read the inserts, or a specific study. I have family who choose to vaccinate their children, and I respect their decision to do so. They respect my wishes not to. I’m for informed consent. However, if a parent chooses not to research, to just vaccinate on schedule because they’re told to, I don’t condemn that, either. I do, however, expect that those people will pay me the same respect for my decision.
I’m also for those who’s children have suffered being able to pin down the cause. Understanding the cause is generally the best hope of finding a way to reverse the problem, or at least treating it to better the situation for the one suffering. And even if they haven’t found a way to treat based on the specific cause, I can tell you that it does help just knowing.
That is correlation, not causation. There is a difference and you should really learn it. You can also correlate the rise in eating organic food and autism incidence, will you stop eating organic food?
http://boingboing.net/2013/01/01/correlation-between-autism-dia.html
The reason people will continue to argue with you is that it isn’t about your isolated decision. If you want to smoke cigarettes in your house, great. If you want to smoke cigarettes in my car, sorry, I will not permit it because it risks my health. The fact is, if enough people stop vaccinating, it risks the population as a whole. It risks people where the vaccine didn’t work. It risks the people who cannot take vaccinations for other reasons. This is why you will continue to get push back because the decision you make does not solely impact you.
” You can also correlate the rise in eating organic food and autism incidence,”
Please list all the many incidences of autism noted prior to the use of pesticides, and I’ll give you that one. Otherwise… no. You really can’t.
I’ll point out again that I knew something would happen to my child. After being bullied into vaccinating, my child ended up in the hospital. The doctors said it was caused by the vaccine. The disease my child ended up with is listed as a reaction on the vaccine insert. You’re just going to have to accept that some people won’t be vaccinated, and a lot more people than most are willing to admit actually shouldn’t be. Please note that I’m not saying no one should be, just a lot more than folks like you are willing to admit to. People shouldn’t have to wait until something disastrous happens to their child due to vaccination in order to be given the choice not to vaccinate. If people had listened to me, my child could have avoided a whole lot of pain and suffering. He shouldn’t have had to “take one for the team”.
Rather hard to refute a self-fullfilling prophecy. The term “Autism” wasn’t coined until 1942-1943, so there could be no diagnosis prior to that point. Modern pesticides were created in that same time frame . Earlier time periods do have reports of autistic behavior, and of course how many people were just “different” with no diagnosis is impossible to assess. There is a fair amount of belief that Einstein (1879-1955)(before modern pesticides) was on the ASD. He certainly exhibited abnormal social behaviors, including delayed speech and difficulties interacting with others. Chances are that nowadays, a number of famous scientists might well be diagnosed with Asperger’s- consider the traits- “qualitative impairment in social interaction, by stereotyped and restricted patterns of behavior, activities and interests, and by no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or general delay in language. Intense preoccupation with a narrow subject, one-sided verbosity, restricted prosody, and physical clumsiness are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis” Come to think of it, that’s a fairly good description of a “nerd”
How many people with more severe forms on the ASD that were committed to insane asylums, work houses, and other warehousing facilities, or executed as witches-I have no way evaluating.
Being educated by such a creature, your child will end up as retarded as an autist..
Seriously? You manage to not only call mentally disabled people “stupid”, which is extremely disrespectful, but you manage to compare them to autistic people in the same sentence? Autistic people aren’t mentally disabled, get your damn facts straight.
BTW, I’m pro-vaccination. So don’t make any assumptions. Your comment makes me sick.
Max, Thank You! That desperately needed to be said.
What’s your explanation for children who aren’t vaccinated and still have autism?? Think about it before blaming something. Also my child is vaccinated and has only had a common cold and not autistic. Stop for a minute and realize that each child is made up differently and some will get things that others won’t. Vaccination has been around for a long time and the ate for autism wasn’t on the rise then.
You carry on letting belief trump over reality. I wish you all the luck in the world because that’s what you are relying on.
Regarding the last sentence: VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM… let me repeat: THEY DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. That vaccines cause autism is a plain old lie. I’m just getting tired of hearing this repeated all over again, completely ignoring the fact that this has long been debunked.
Also: vaccines DO work, whether you believe it or not (but no, they will not prevent a common cold).
The whole point of the above article is to gather and present information, and obviously you haven’t read it. So read it first before commenting on it!
Besides: not vaccinating is not a harmless choice, it is irresponsible as it puts the life of babies at risk.
Wow. The amount of ill-education and ignorance in your post is truly staggering. Did you have much of a science education in school? Do you have a high school diploma? I truly pray that your children are never around anyone whose vaccinations aren’t current, farm animals, soil, rust, etc. I assume you are home schooling. That’s good for their protection. Also, you should keep them away from all hospitals, public eateries, nursing homes, schools, daycares, airports, and foreign countries. Just wondering… if they were ever bitten by another child or animal or cut by something rusty, would you allow them to get Hep B, anti-venom, or a tetnus shot, or just wait and see if anything happens (even if by then it might be too late)? You are really taking a risk with the lives of your children, essentially taking them back to the 1800’s. Were it not for the extremely low incidence of these major diseases in your immediate environment, that is to say, if there were people in your life who ever contracted any of those illnesses, your children would get sick or worse. Thank goodness for their sake most of these diseases are nearly erradicated. By the way, that is what “head immunity” means. Does that make sense to you? I hope so.
Spot on!!
Not having your child vaccinated against tetanus is just downright stupid and gambling with your kids’ Health.
If you so doubt medical Progress, would you also deny your child penicillin in the case of a bacteria infection?
Vaccinations have proven effective for – say – 300 years or so. Geez, why do we have to discuss this over and over Again?!
Not so, drugs in general have only been around for about 100 years…do your research before you spout off that info.
Funny how people who tell others to “do their research” often speak without first ‘doing their research’.
The first smallpox vaccine was invented in 1796 by Edward Jenner (after observing milk maid’s immunity to smallpox and correctly deducing this was due to their exposure to cowpox)
There is also evidence that the Chinese used similar methods to confer immunity as long ago as 1000 CE and that the practice was widespread in Turkey and Africa.
Here is just one source http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all
But despite their little experiments, they didn’t work, now did they? When I said drugs have been around about 100 years, I mean the drugs of today! Besides that, no research will I believe when it has the name MEDICAL or PHARMA in it.
Actually they did work, but over the years they have refined the technology and the efficacy has improved a great deal.
More ‘Jenny McCarthyism’ There exists not a single creditable study that shows any of the things you ‘believe’, to be true.
There exists thousands of successfully won court cases against pharmaceutical companies for suffering, complications, lifelong illness and even death due to vaccinations but we can’t talk about that because policy makers were clever enough to allow nondisclosure agreements and publication bans to exist before plaintiffs can be awarded any monetary settlements. So I can’t give you the links I’d sorely like to to prove my point.
How convenient.
Seriously if I hear anything about Jenny McCarthy or Jim Carey one more time I’ll lose it. That is simply a nice strawman argument people too stupid to see out of more than one lense use to justify their arguments and dumb down any opposing ones. I love how all the science nazis can’t stop talking about “intelligent” arguments yet miss their own stupidity and oversight.
An NDA can conceal the exact terms of a settlement, but not the existence of the case, the nature of the claim, the size of any monetary demands, or the fact that the case was settled. So that really shouldn’t prevent you from providing links to prove your point, whatever it may be.
While you may not care about McCarthy, please note that you are just one person. She and Generation Rescue are still significant players in the anti-vaccine movement; her recent op-ed platform makes that readily apparent.
Oh, hello again Colin. I like your new picture of a white collar and tie… the symbol of white male privilege, if ever there was one. I see you’re still fighting the fire. Good job. Perhaps Jennifer will give you, Scott Nelson, and JerryA medals of honour for the countless hours you have spent on her blog repeating exactly what she and 90% of responders on this blog say and continuing to jump on anyone and everyone who has an alternative view. Say what I will, but you lads certainly are committed!
I appreciate their contributions, certainly, but medals seem a bit excessive.
Then they’d need chelation therapy….it’s a whole rigamarole.
Thanks, I took that photo myself. I think it’s still part of my most recent portfolio. I’m glad you like it.
There is belief based on dogma and informed decisions based on science.
“I do not believe in herd immunity (as I do not believe that vaccines are effective) ”
Your believings won’t change reality, your ignorance won’t change reality
They say that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism.
It doesn’t, and it hasn’t been in most vaccines since 2001 anyway.
Half of this sentence is a lie. The other half hasn’t been proven or disproven. Thimerosal IS in vaccines and is currently in the flu, dTap recommended for pregnant women and many others. The direct information about what exactly is in EACH vaccine can be seen by looking up the patient packing information just like each prescription that you get at the Pharmacy when you pick up your regular prescriptions. This information can be looked up on the government websites and is readily available for everyone to see.
It is very unfair of you to generally judge each anti vaccine person into one lump sum of reasons.
Please reread what Dr. Raff said:
“They say that thimerosal in vaccines causes autism.
It doesn’t, and it hasn’t been in most vaccines since 2001 anyway.”
Contrary to the strawman you’re arguing against, she said thimerosal is not present in MOST vaccines since 2001. Note the use of the word ‘MOST’.
Dr. Raff also included a link that supports the claim that thimerosal does not cause autism. The link is in the very sentences you copy/pasted. This is what the link has to say about thimerosal (and here is the link-AGAIN: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full)
” It is hard to imagine a better conceived, better designed study on the subtle effects of mercury poisoning than that performed by Bill Thompson and colleagues at the CDC and published in 2007.15 The study carefully identified the quantity of mercury exposure from thimerosal before birth (from RhoGam; Ortho Diagnostics, Raritan, NJ) and after birth (from vaccines) for >1000 children. Researchers then subjected the children to >40 neurologic, psychological, and developmental tests and found no significant differences for those who received greater or lesser quantities of mercury. By choosing not to evaluate the quality of the scientific findings on this issue, Sears again fails to educate his readers.”
There is insufficient evidence to support the claim that thimerosal causes autism. Unless and until such evidence is discovered, the Null Hypothesis is applicable: there is no causal relationship between thimerosal and autism.
There many many studies that show no causal link between vaccinations and autism. It is a fallacy put forth by the anti-vax community that there is no clear evidence against a vaccine/autism link.
Here’s another recent one (2013):
http://www.jpeds.com/content/JPEDSDeStefano
And another (2004):
http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx
In 2009, the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in Washington, D.C. ruled that there was no link between vaccines and autism. No doubt anti-vaxxers will claim that a court isn’t a scientific body, well that is true, so that neatly cancels out anti-vaxer’s use of the Federal Vaccine Court’s awarding of payouts to parents of autistic children as support for a vaccine-autism link.
20 studies alone are listed in this document, ranging from early 2000’s to 2012, dismissing the vaccine-autism link.
Click to access ConcernMmrAutismIac20131101.pdf
There are literally hundreds of studies if you care to look. Of course anti-vaxers won’t look, that would be too inconvenient.
thx max for spending the time to provide all these links to evidence. I hope people do look and have the courage to have an open mind about the data and realize being anti-vax is not based on reality.
I have no illusions that this will reach any of it’s intended audience, but here goes:
I like this video–thank you! I’m going to share it everywhere.
Interesting articles. At this point I’ve done selective vaccinations of my children after reading everything I can about each vaccine.
I personally think that you should look at all arguments and try to figure out the truth.
I personally don’t just trust what scientists say because they say it. After all this is the group of people that once said the world was flat, that they had found the missing link (until they figured out it was a fake and contained plastic) and they at one point said there was going to be another ice age and then the world was getting too warm and now the climate is just changing because of carbon emissions (something that is impossible to prove because the climate has always changed).
So, just because scientist believe something doesn’t make it true. But, if they have hard data then it should be at least considered.
Oh, I forgot to mention that one of my Boys had a very serious reaction to a vaccine, so as you mentioned that does happen. That is one reason I try to make sure it is OK for them to have a vaccine before they get it.
I think this makes sense. Vaccines are great for the health of people in a society. But the do have side effects, and there are ways (other than the standard protocol) to reduce the chance of getting side effects, while still receiving the benefits of the vaccine. I don’t understand why the pro-vaccine crowd doesn’t admit this more often. I think it would make the case for vaccines stronger, not weaker.
We have (in the past) and do admit that there are small risks to getting vaccinated. The reward of doing so far outweigh them though. We know that there are potential side effects, and we know that there are some people that are not able to get vaccinated due to their reaction to them.
neither have any of us said that if a person has a reaction to a vaccination that they need ignore that in favor of getting the vaccination. We’ve said that part of herd immunity is to allow for those cases where getting a vaccination isn’t possible.
Please do not put words into our mouths.
Yes we were supposed to be headed into another Ice Age, when the data showed the climate was warming instead of cooling,researchers began looking for the reason why, that’s when increasing CO2 concentrations were discovered to be the cause of the warming. Most of the increasing CO2 is from manmade sources.
Relevance?
It was in response to David’s comment, above.
Scientists never said the world was flat. The effect of CO2, on heat reflection is well proven, and the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is very well corelated to industrialisation, although there are many natural sources too. There probably will be another ice age one day, and eventually the planet will be scorched to a cinder when the Sun expands to encompass it. Science, isn’t about belief, it’s about hard data and probable conclusions from that data.
You’re still right to research vacines and make an informed judgement about your childrens health though. But also, the points made in this article are very important, and you should be sceptical of scares without credible scientific consensus behind them. Vacines are very thoroughly tested and widely used, and I believe that any possible side effects are far outweighed by the known consequences of the deseases they pevent, as a general rule.
+1
Correlation is not equivalent to cause, the use of payphones in New York has decreased over the last 10 years, while the crime rate has gone up –> correlation yes, cause, I doubt it
lol.. correlation no, cause no! do you know what correlation mean?
Do you? They used it correctly.
Actually, it is not proven at all. It is well funded. Water dominates the world’s weather. CO2 does not go through phase changes in our atmosphere. Before all this started, the same physicists were busy looking at astronomical cycles, a more likely effect. If CO2 is well-correlated, how do you explain the 50 years periods of reverse correlation? Scientists all have beliefs and you are welcome to yours. This is one scientist who is not convinced and not dependent on funding for such.
(Y) “Vaccines are very thoroughly tested and widely used, and I believe that any possible side effects are far outweighed by the known consequences of the diseases they prevent, as a general rule.” Excellent. I was nervous about vaccinating my son the first time he was due one. A very small percentage of people who get vaccinated (adults and children) are severely harmed by vaccines. If a person has any reaction at all it is mild, like pain at the injection site or a low fever that subsides quickly, within 24 hours. I had a neighbour growing up who had polio as a child. This woman could walk but she was permanently bent and twisted. I had no wish for my son to experience anything like that. The Anti-Vaxxers have their position; no amount of real scientific evidence that the risk of vaccination outweighs the danger of the actual disease will not sway them. I don’t doubt that some children are more sensitive to certain vaccines and I also don’t doubt that some, very few, are seriously harmed. In my opinion, the possibility of adverse reaction is worth the protection of the vaccine. I don’t think unvaccinated children should be allowed in public schools, a religious or other exemption (except a valid medical one) should not give them an out. A person who uses a religious objection should send their children to a religious school or home school. I also agree with the author, that it is despicable for Anti-Vaxxers to depend on others for herd immunity. So it’s okay if I vaccinate my child, but yours is too precious to risk- that’s the message I get from that, and it is arrogant to the extreme. Educate yourselves!! 🙂
I said it backwards- I meant to say the danger of the disease outweighs the risk of vaccination. There does not seem to be a way to edit, sorry. 🙂
I’m sorry about the lack of editing abilities. It’s a WordPress feature.
Vaccines are thoroughly tested you say? Says who? LOL And that very small percentage of children who have died or been damaged from them, must live right here in my small town, because we have many here with damage. Just where do you get your information? LOL I can’t educate myself any more than I have in the last 18 years..nothing has changed, vaccines are still poison! And yes, been researching for 18 long years, and yes, I know the truth and the truth has set me free!
I want you to show me evidence of anyone who has died or been severely “damaged” long term. The only people who have ever been shown to have poor reactions are those who are allergic to a compound within the vaccine, which is why vaccines tell you if there is any allergens in the vaccine. I approach a problem as a scientist trying to take in all the information before making informed decisions but I have yet to see anything supporting the idea vaccines are “poison”. Give me some evidence that has been verified and I would be very willing to change my opinion because my loyalty is to the truth not any one side in an argument.
Just read the list of adverse reaction on the inserts provided by the manufacturers (hint: you can find them on the websites of those manufacturers). Nearly every vaccine lists some form of autoimmune disease as a possible reaction. Some even list “death” as a possible reaction. Is that proof enough for you?
I know, right? If you read the inserts that actually list the amount of testing done prior to approval, it’s astounding how little time was put into it. I think it was the Dtap recipients that were followed for 4 whole days after it was administered.
well of course you could also look at the years of post release surveillance.
“must live right here in my small town, because we have many here with damage. ”
Then you can say where do you live and what cases are you talking about.
It’s true that scientists never said the world was flat. That was the religious folks trying to use their beliefs to mandate truth. Some things never change.
All of these claims you cite were “pop” science, not “scientists.” They were viewpoints, popularly spread. Take for instance, the Renaissance era maps showing a flat earth. Those maps were a type of media for spreading information, they were not navigational maps. Not everyone believed the earth was flat. The Greeks believed the world was round. Science has always been contentious.
There are many problems in your comments, let me address the most obvious ones:
First of all, you are right. Scientists can make errors. No doubt about that. But think about one thing: If someone who is an expert can make an error – what is the probability of YOU making an error? Oh yes, compared to the expert, that probability is gigantic. Sorry, you are an amateur. I am, too. It’s a delusion to believe that you have only to look at some texts, books, etc. and that will make you able to make a better choice than an expert. Face reality, please: You don’t have a real clue. You can scratch on the surface, nothing more. Put your arrogance away, please. You haven’t earned it.
2nd… Honestly, forget that nonsense. What scientist ever claimed the world was flat? Not even the people in Columbus’ time believed that – and modern science didn’t even exist then. The whole concept of science as we have it now didn’t exist.
The fact that the Piltdown man was found out to be a fake quite soon is not a point against science (and it sure isn’t a point for your point), because it proves that science works as it should and is perfectly able to correct mistakes. Are you?
The ‘world is flat’ was just a general observation and really, that isn’t a good argument. I find that people argue about science that just really don’t understand it. They seem to think it is black magic and I hope that more youth embrace it. People that don’t will just be on the wrong side of history. Science is about setting a hypothesis (guess what you think might happen) and then testing that hypothesis through a controlled experiment. The hypothesis may be proven true or false or inconclusive. The common misconception or belief by non-science or anti-vaxxers is that the experiment is somehow rigged for financial gain. Unfortunately, 1 experiment does not a fact make! It needs to be peer reviewed and independently validated. This ensures that we can state something to be true. In the case of the link make by Dr. Wakefield around autism and vaccines, it was proved by the independents to be completely false and hence rejected. Not only rejected but he was discredited.
Now there are typically two ways we look at things, as a theory or as a fact. For example, there was a theory the world was flat. It wasn’t a fact because no one could prove it. There was a theory by science that the earth went around the sun and not the sun around the earth (as stated by the church). Lets take another example. Evolution. Highly debated but there is the ‘theory’ and then there is the ‘fact’ The theory by science is we evolved from a lessor common ancestor that had more in common with Ape’s. Science has yet to prove it however, they have proven the fact of evolution. The fact of evolution is that genes of a population change over time. This is much simpler to prove, your kids get different genes from each parent and the gene pool at large changes over time. In the animal kingdom, unfavourable genes cause those genes to be less likely to reproduce. We have seen this. One just needs to look at new breeds of dogs that never existed 20 or 30 years ago to see this fact in action.
Long way to respond but it is true, just because it is science, doesn’t make it true but typically it is the closest most verifiable truth we currently have. I would much rather that than simply guessing, wouldn’t you? Or do you prefer to gamble with your families lives? Remember, it may not be a gamble now because most still do vaccinate. It becomes a gamble when more and more stop vaccinating and diseases come back (of which it has already begun).
You have misunderstood the difference between a theory and a fact. Evolution, for example, is both.
Colin, I bet you are an atheist, no
How much would you bet? We can find someone to handle the wager, put some money in escrow.
Any amount Colin for I know many confess Christianity out of their mouths but they are also fooling themselves. If you were a true Christian, you’d not be blinded by all of these things, unless of course you just don’t ask GOD for his input?? He does really talk to you, you know, IF you are willing to be quiet long enough for him to do so. : – )
What about true Scotsmen?
Did you forget to read my comment? Colin, that is exactly what I stated. “there is the ‘theory’ and then there is the ‘fact;”. I then went on to explain the difference in the theory – we came from apes and the fact – genetic changes in populations. Which comment did you read?
I understood you to be contrasting “theory” with “fact” in the sense that theories become facts when proven. For example, when you said, ” there was a theory the world was flat. It wasn’t a fact because no one could prove it.” If that isn’t what you meant, then I apologize for misreading your comment.
I was really trying to dumb it down
Scientific theories are facts
no, they are not facts. They are our best description that matches all current observations. They may not match future observations.
Yea. For example, Newton’s law of universal gravitation was the dominant theory governing gravity, until Einstein developed his general theory of relativity. Newton’s theory worked well and accurately described virtually everything that was being observed, until people started looking at systems with very high mass and/or very high velocity, like Mercury’s orbit around the Sun. Gravity, the attractive force between massive objects, is an observed fact, but our perception of the rules that govern it are only theories.
Well, it sure doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out why diseases are already making a comeback. Most certainly not from those who don’t vaccinate, that’s for sure. I mean, after all, if those vaccines work, then none of you should ever get sick, yet I see sick people all the time and they are vaccinated regularly. Whether you want to believe it or not, most of those vaccines do shed for upwards of 3 weeks, through skin, saliva, and feces. Put one recently vaccinated child in with one who isn’t and see what happens.
Mind if if see your Ph.D. in Immunology or Epidemiology? I’d settle for an M.S. in either You might be surprised how hard it is to track down the cause of an outbreak-although the unimmunized is always a good jumping off point.
I don’t think you even need a degree, I just want people to take a few of the immunology and microbiological courses I have taken to understand how diseases function in the first place. Also I love how someone said diseases are making a comeback when the only communicable disease that shows up in the top causes of death is Influenza and Pneumonia as a combined group with around 50,000 making it number 9 in the top 10 causes of death. And before anyone gets up in arms saying that is so many people we also have to remember pneumonia can be caused by viruses or bacteria (which can’t be vaccinated against) and is often the cause of death if someone has AIDS.
Diseases are not making a comeback and even if vaccines were “to shed” for 3 weeks (which they don’t) they are inert versions of the virus (often just the capsid or antigens) so that your memory b-cell that matches the antigen in the virus has been activated and will be faster and more effective at responding to the virus next time it enters the vaccinated person’s body.
By the way sorry for replying to you scott I wanted to talk to you and then I kept reading the comment above and it brought me so much pain I felt I had to respond to him.
Not a problem. I wonder how many people commenting about vaccines know what a CD4+ or CD8+ cell is, or for that matter, how an antibody is generated at the molecular level. They might not talk so much about “natural immunity” if they did.
Any interest in doing a guest post on how the immune system works? 🙂
I might be interested. The tough part is to explain the protein chemistry/cell-cell interactions/molecular biology without pictures, as Andy AE commented
Understood. If you decide you want to, shoot me an email.
If only I could put all of the diagrams we were shown in class in this comment section
Like myself, your understanding of how diseases function is quite limited. Unlike you, I’d rather defer to those who are experts in this field. Pardon me for not trusting your unsupported opinions about vaccines.
OMG. I get the common cold b/c there is no vaccine for that. I do not get smallpox, polio, whooping cough, tetanus, the measles, mumps or chicken pox. I wish there were a vaccine to prevent my exposure to crazy. Oh, wait. I’m immune to that, so it must be you. God wasted a brain on you. You have yet to post a single piece of evidence for anything you say. I believe you are stupid. I believe you are endangering your children. I believe in the sound a rubber band makes being sucked up in a vacuum cleaner is the word of god. I believe what I believe has no effect on the actual veracity of any of these things.
You do realize that people get sick from diseases for which there are no vaccinations right? And while vaccinations do not provide 100% effective coverage life-long, they do provide a significant percentage of effective protection during the most vulnerable period of time for any human being – childhood. You not choosing to vaccinate your child doesn’t affect the healthy population, but it is a major risk factor for significant morbidity and mortality in immuno-compromised patients, children and adults alike. Another thing about vaccines you need to understand: most of them are not alive. There are a few vaccines which contain live organisms, however, these are live ATTENUATED organisms, which means they are not the original “wild” strain of the organism, these vaccine strains are somehow weaker, whether that be in their ability to infect cells in the body, or their ability to produce disease in the body (those are two different aspects of immunology by the way). These less dangerous strains are alive, and are not killed because they have been shown in comparative studies done over several years to be more effective alive than dead at stimulating the host immune response, and providing protection against the disease long term.
David:
“I personally think that you should look at all arguments and try to figure out the truth.”
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Not all arguments are equally valid. In matters of health, I think it is an especially bad idea to look at *all* arguments to determine your best course. As one can see from the debate surrounding vaccinations, not all arguments are backed by evidence. Without evidence to support a position, there is no rational reason to accept the validity of that position.
Back when the perception that the earth was flat, the average life expectancy was 40 years old and infant mortality was very high so progress has been made.
You can always join the flat earth society if you believe this science thing to be all biased and driven by big business. It is just as plausible as the anti-vaxx arguments.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/
The rhetorical bullshitting technique you use to to reject scientific consensus is wrong.
connecting the notion that if people thought the earth was flat in the past then we cannot trust vaccines is stupid. The Flat-Earth theory was in no way disprovable at the time and it was the best model of reality, ie it was useful for sailors etc. A theory is something that can be disproved based on falsifiability. The theory was disproved because of new observations that didn’t fit that model. This is the PROCESS of science.
The safety of vaccines can be tested, this has nothing to do with the Flat-Earth theory being a dated model. The logical fallacy is a non-sequitur and not-even-wrong.
And then you deny climate change. If you deny the science on climate change, then I’m afraid, you are an ignorant and your implicit anti-vax position looks even more foolish.
Do you not bother turning the TV using the same science-was-wrong-before or not bother crossing streets? This is the absurd end point of your argument.
DDT is a different matter and would support a notion of precautionary principle. In the case of vaccines though you would be precautions to use vaccines (because of the risks involved with contactable diseases). I think the whole vaccine “debate” rests on humans cognitive biases especially confirmation bias (alternative medicine is great) and pseudocertainty effect (its hard to make a rational decision based on statistics) mixed with a bit of reactance.
The science-was-wrong-before argument is a last ditch desperate effort.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! I’m sharing this with the world! Hopefully it will make a difference to someone!
I agree with the spirit and point of this article, however, I immediately spotted a glaring error, which you should fix, for it’s credibility.
You state:
They say that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
It doesn’t. (The question of whether vaccines cause autism has been investigated in study after study, and they all show overwhelming evidence that they don’t.)
This isn’t true. There is at least one study which concluded there was a link. The one which started the scare. Their conclusion may well have been flawed, and there may be many more studies which found otherwise, to the point where it should be dismissed, but to state that ALL show no link, when one so famously did, undermines your point. I would phrase it as “…, and they overwhelmingly show they don’t.”, instead.
I’m not even sure that conclusion is imutable, but it’s a fair assessment of the current best research, and more lives will be saved by vacination than could ever be harmed, based on undeniable statistics, as I understand them.
The one study which found a link was undertaken by a doctor who was being paid by lawyers representing the family of an autistic child who wanted to sue vaccine manufacturers for their child’s disease. Additionally, that doctor no longer has a medical licence or a shred of credibility remaining in the scientific or medical world.
On those grounds it is completely reasonable to disregard his study. It is possible she should change the wording to “and all legitimate studies show overwhelming evidence that they don’t” but that’s about it. The original study has been thoroughly debunked.
She is clearly referring to peer-reviewed, falsifiable, well-designed, legitimate studies. That original study deserves no more attention than a study saying pigs can fly. I’m glad you brought it up so someone could put this information about the worthlessness of that study forward however.
Finally, that study has very very likely cost the lives of children who’s parents read it or an article about it and believed what they were being told. That level of irresponsibility is immoral to say the least, and everyone involved in it should be ashamed of themselves. As a future doctor, I can only hope the truth eventually prevails and this ridiculous anti-vaccination movement lays down and dies before it kills too many more innocent people.
Matt,
If you’re talking about Andrew Wakefield’s paper, it has been retracted and shown to be fraudulent. Even had it not been fraudulent (which it was) it actually said “We did not prove an association between measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described.” Are you talking about a different paper?
Cheers,
Rosewind
Matt, you are mistaken here. The article is brief in nature so if you aren’t well read on the subject you’ll think that was an error. But Dr (former) Wakefield is who conducted that study and he is in fact referenced above. It’s not credible nor noteworthy so It can’t be counted as conclusive. he was caught, cornered and squirmed when questioned about his ties to a law firm preparing to sue pharm companies for millions. He wasn’t concerned with the children and was found highly unethical and stripped of his license. Please read “Vaccinated”. It answers all questions good and bad.
Matt, the disgraced Mr Wakefield’s research was a sham, he faked results because he was paid-off, and the article was RETRACTED. He is a total charlatan (faking research for money) and immoral (lies passed as scientific research most likely led to many deaths). Are you willfully ignorant? The anti-vaxer propaganda has spread like a fart in an elevator.
I guess its easy to put out there articles like this….until it actually happens to you. As a measles mumps and chickenpox ect survivor. Its very difficult for to me to look at my vaccine injured child and read its rare or doesnt happen or its for the greater good or that somehow its ok. I would like you to meet my son and you can tell him that as he struggles thru his day.
That’s unfortunate, but doesn’t make the positive impact of vaccines any less true or relevant.
I’m glad you were able to survive those illnesses. Maybe you were lucky and your child was very unlucky? But unfortunately, your experience does not matter as anything other than one data point. My experience which is of family members dying of measles pre-vaccine, and me and my family having no problem with vaccines cancels out your experience. Data are important for coming to conclusions, not personal experiences.
You have to understand Barb, they don’t care, nor do they believe what you are saying about your son. Fact is, if your child had a reaction to a vaccine and you immediately took them in, the Dr. would look at you and say, “Well, that’s really a shame, but no way can it be vaccine related.” Seen it happen and have a friend that a Dr. used the fear tactic of,you don’t vaccinate your child, your child will die.” All totally ludicrous and it’s funny how outbreaks of disease are coming back and yet, they still try to blame the unvaccinated. Just how are they getting it if all these people vaccinate? It’s not just a germ that chases children around trying to infect them and in FACT, it sheds because the others vaccinate their children and then try to blame the ones who don’t vaccinate. And how come I have seen so many kids get sick regardless off these wonderful vaccines??Truth is, many years ago, I worked in food establishments, nursing homes, etc. and NEVER had to get a vaccine to work there. I also flew to Germany and lived there 2 1/2 years, and I didn’t have to have any vaccines before, or while living there and gee whiz, golly, no one was sick. In fact, the only time I got sick was from a UTI caused by their nasty water there until they told us we must boil it. lol And since vaccines weren’t pushed at you, why were people not sick due to huge outbreaks? I had all these diseases naturally, don’t recall being that sick and I bounced right back with an immune system functioning for the better because I had it naturally. In my day, you didn’t see schools being paid for each child they “thought” might have ADD or ADHD, you didn’t vaccinate your kids for them to go to school either and there were not outbreaks of anything. Go figure. It’s only for profit that these things are pushed upon us now and there is no way extensive studies have been done on any of them, because they “create” new vaccines all the time, so not enough time to do long term studies. In the USA, they did a very short term study on Aspartame and then killed the mice. In France, they did a 2 year or longer study on it and deemed it as poison. In many other countries, all these things are banned and yet here, they still are alive and thriving. That’s because the U.S.A is filled with greedy, fear mongering people in the form of the Big Pharma, Monsanto, the FDA,(who btw, can’t keep up with the drugs and have admitted that) and all the others…it’s all about money, that’s the bottom line! And Matthew, I think you are not telling the truth about family members dying from measles. Not unless they were sick or very immune compromised to begin with. Anyone can read the other side, by going to Vaclib.org, or NVIC.org, or just type in vaccine ingredients and read the “other” side to the story and then realize that you have put into your bodies.
The author of this article has this one absolutely correct. It is sad to see in this day and age how people can stand by and watch their children pass from preventable diseases. My Facebook page (www.facebook.com/microbiology.immunology) has on it a diagram to visually place things into perspective for those that doubt. A student of ours has just shared this on our department’s page and he is a future doctor.
Please excuse the reference to our page in my message. I am with the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at the University of Miami. Education can only end opposing opinions.
Reblogged this on Jennie Yale and commented:
I know the controversy behind this issue, and I’m not a doctor, but from the knowledge I do have, I believe in Science. I TRUST Science.
Yes, I would definitely 100% vaccinate my hypothetical future children.
Yea well, you are yet another blinded, dumbed down sheeple. Go ahead, jab your children but for those who do NOT want to, it’s none of your business either!
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Personally, I really don’t care about anyone else’s children getting vaccinated or not. I think it’s incredibly ignorant, but you’re right, it’s none of my business as I’m indifferent to what happens to your children.
And I don’t care what happens to yours either. Mine are all adults and very healthy with their own kids who are NOT vaccinated, who are VERY healthy. No colds, not even a sniffle. Much different than my friends adult kids who were vaccinated and their kids, because they are always sick.
That’s wonderful. Do your kids travel to other countries often as well?
I was vaccinated as a child. My kids are fully vaccinated and guess what, they are the healthiest kids you will ever meet. They have immune systems of steel. They never get sick. Neither do I. What do you have to say about that?
People seem to forget that even 100 years ago in western societies childhood mortality rates were very high and in third world countries today they are still very high. The reason ours have dropped, better medical and post natal care, including vaccines. With them we have managed to eradicate disfiguring, debilitating or even fatal diseases but without them they could make a come back and possibly lead to the super diseases people worry about as those vaccinated mix with those who aren’t (due to mutations and cross infections).
I have never had a flu shot and I have never had the flu. If you want people to take you seriously then learn how to write properly.
http://www.naturalnews.com/042012_vaccine_facts_vaccine-damaged_children_CDC.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/037653_vaccine_additives_thimerosal_formaldehyde.html