Open thread: please share your thoughts!

Jennifer Raff —  April 6, 2014 — 1,360 Comments

My most recent post (“Dear parents, you are being lied to”) has sparked a very lively discussion. I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts on it, but I also want to follow up by asking for your reactions to one comment that I found particularly interesting. (I’ve edited it a bit for brevity)

As a pediatrician who’s spent extensive time working in the US and overseas and has seen children die from EVERY disease (except small pox) for which there is a vaccine I am appalled at the lack of education by the general public on the vaccine issue. This is my rant: I had two unvaccinated children in the US die from whooping cough, one from tetanus, and 2 from meningitis in the past few years. Perhaps this reflects our country’s generally poor understanding of math and science in general. A recent large study in the US showed that no matter how scientists try to educate US parents about disease and disease prevention, whether it is vaccines or hand washing, parents simply cannot follow the logic.

It’s devastating to see children die from preventable disease and despicable that it is happening here. I would like to know why those whose children end up in the PICU with tetanus or whooping cough now trust us to save the life of their child? Why do you run to a doctor when you are terrified your child has tetanus after refusing to vaccinate? Why am I now competent to save your child’s life when they have meningitis or epiglottis, but I wasn’t competent enough to keep them from getting sick? If there was no medical help for your unvaccinated child if they acquired a vaccine preventable illness would you think about vaccinating? If you’re not willing to run to your anti-vaccine friend, treat your child with advice from non-scientific sites on the internet, go to your chiropractor, or your holistic healer with your dying child perhaps you shouldn’t be taking their advice about vaccines. –Anonymous

To those of you who simply don’t trust the medical community’s use of vaccines, I am curious what you make of this physician’s point. Given your reservations about vaccines, do you trust an MD to treat yourself or your children for any medical issues at all? If so, why do you trust his/her education and experience on some points but not others?

I invite anyone, pro- or anti-vax, to share your thoughts on this. Please respect each other by following the commenting policies (and feel free to alert me if I miss a comment in violation of them).

 

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Jennifer Raff

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Scientist, fighter, reader. In pursuit of the extraordinary.

1,360 responses to Open thread: please share your thoughts!

  1. 

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf And this isn’t even up to date. You all seem to be dilusional about what is safe and what’s not.

    • 

      Oooh, lots of things with long names. But a list of ingredients is not evidence that vaccines are harmful. I could cook you up some fresh tasty food from fruits and veggies grown my garden, then compile of list of the chemicals that make up those foods. I would be remiss if I did not include the formaldehyde and amygdalin (which turns into cyanide) that are included in many of them:

      http://jameskennedymonash.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/the-ingredients-in-food-phenomenon-continues/

      Here is a better list:
      Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

      If you have evidence that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the disease, then please post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers with that data.

      • 

        Have you tested the soil quality where you’re growing those fruits and vegetables? You could have runoff water, chemicals, and worse. Science has a strong place in health. If anyone believes we’re less healthy than days when everyone was on a “paleo” diet, then clearly they don’t see the effects of science advancements.

        • 

          It is either rain water or very good city tap water from a mountain lake that is thoroughly tested. This city also does tertiary treatment on its sewage before returning it to the ocean.

          The “paleo” diet included eating acorns, which caused severe tooth decay.

  2. 

    Don’t question Big Pharma or Big Agriculture. Don’t question the government. Don’t question societal norms. Don’t question science. Don’t question whats in the vaccines. Don’t question why cancer and autism are exploding at an alarming rate from generation to generation. Don’t question why 1 in 3 will have diabetes by 2025. Don’t question why with all the modern advancement in medical technology there are no cures for cancer or STD’s and other diseases. Give up your freedoms, give up your liberties, and have no tolerance for anyone who asks questions. Like sheep led to the slaughter…

    • 

      Ever considered the possibility 1 in 3 people will have diabetes because of their unhealthy food pattern, with lots of soda’s/coca cola containing huge amounts of sugar, overburdening their pancreases?

    • 

      Anonymous, seriously? Science is continually questioned. And continually, the questioning of the science shows that vaccines DON’T. CAUSE. AUTISM.

      And I love this little snippet: “Don’t question why with all the modern advancement in medical technology there are no cures for cancer or STD’s and other diseases.” You couldn’t be more factually wrong about that statement if you tried. There are cures and treatments for various different types of cancers, STDs and other diseases. In fact, the “cure” for many of the most deadly diseases are the VACCINES that you absurdly claim are unsafe or maliciously harmful.

    • 

      Don’t question the conspiracy theorists, because you’ll be led away from interventions that work.
      And worse, you’ll be called a “sheeple!”

      Of course you’re allowed and encouraged to ask questions, but we expect those questioning the known science to either understand the answer or utilize someone who does (and does not have a financial interest in selling you an alternative with NO science to back it up) to help you understand it. Someone like, maybe, Jennifer Raff.

    • 

      The sleeple are everywhere -_-

  3. 

    We are over populating this planet… and destroying the natural balance to nature so trying to save everyone and prolonging our lives is completly pointless if we dont even keep ourselves in check and take responsibility of ourselves and our race

    • 

      Unfortunately letting children suffer, become disabled and die is not an answer to over population. The areas with the highest population growth are those with higher child mortality numbers, because a woman will have ten kids in order for a few to live to adulthood.

      The best ways to curb population is by educating women and providing assurance that their children will become adults. Watch as Hans Rosling explains (the other videos on that site are also worthwhile):

      http://www.gapminder.org/videos/will-saving-poor-children-lead-to-overpopulation/#.VB9DjhaK2So

    • 

      If you have everybody in the world a small space they could all fit inside Texas.

    • 

      i believe our lifestyles are what puts the natural balance of nature at risk, not overpopulation. It’s the global elite that put that sort of idea out there, they want to depopulate the planet. Most people buy it unfortunately.

      • 

        “It’s the global elite that put that sort of idea out there, they want to depopulate the planet”

        How?

        Have you watched any of Hans Roslings videos?

    • 

      Ya, you try telling that to the people who have lost children to preventable disease. I hope you don’t have children. Taking responsibility, is to vaccinate so that preventable disease does not run rampant again.

  4. 

    I’ve always wondered; how does an unvaccinated child put vaccinated children at risk?

    • 

      Well, kirsty, how would you protect an infant under the age of one year from measles? Do tell us, since that is before they are old enough for the vaccine.

      Plus read this comment from Sally:

      Please get your children vaccinated my son was born with SCIDS(google it) .

      Show you care about children, make sure they do not have to suffer from something that is preventable.

    • 

      kirsty, how would you protect an infant from measles? They are too young to get the MMR vaccine, and with each outbreak there seems to be an infant who gets measles. Also an infant is very vulnerable to pertussis and Hib, but do not have full protection until they are at least nine months old since multiple vaccines are needed to build immunity.

      Also, how do you protect a child or adult who has an immune disorder like SCIDS or is going through cancer treatment? Do you care if your child infects someone else who has medical issues just because of bad luck?

      • 

        well, what happens when you give the pertussis vaccine to your child and she gets pertussis from the vaccine? I personally feel that one should not vaccinate. I have six children and two had there first vaccines but none after that. The last four had no vaccines, rarely get ill and are extremely healthy. My second child got pertussis right after she received the vaccine, as pertussis was in the vaccine.
        At 3 I had Rubella, I was not vaccinated for it. I now have a natural immunity and all six kids have it also.

        • 

          You have no scientific proof that any of your claims are valid. Your experience could be the result of your specific circumstances or even blind luck.

        • 

          The vaccine against whooping cough does NOT contain live Bordatella pertussis bacteria but just a piece of the killed bacteria which your body “sees” as a foreign substance, and thus responds by making antibodies. The next time it “sees” this protein sequence, it will be already primed to produce those antibodies which will attack the live bacteria which have entered your body. You CANNOT get whooping cough from the vacccine. Your child caught whooping cough from someone else who had it, at a time when your child’s body had not been primed to react quickly to the exposure. And I’m just curious as to how you know that all six of your children are immune to Rubella. Did you have them all get blood tests to check their immune status to Rubella? If you are thinking that they are immune because you are, you are wrong. They probably had a short lived immunity right after birth from your antibodies having been transfered to them. But after the first year of life, those antibodies will have died out, and having been host to them in no way teaches their immune system to make those same antibodies on their own. They would only be immune IF they either had the disease or had the vaccine.

        • 

          Why do you think your unvaccinated children have immunity to rubella? Looking forward to your deaf, retarded grandchildren? That’s rather weird.

        • 

          “The last four had no vaccines, rarely get ill and are extremely healthy.”

          Please thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate. They are protecting your children by bolstering your community’s immunity to many diseases.

          “My second child got pertussis right after she received the vaccine, as pertussis was in the vaccine.”

          But it is not perfect. Your child was probably exposed to another child who was contagious with pertussis before she got the vaccine. As Helen says, you can’t get pertussis from the DTaP. Because of parents like you, some diseases like measles, mumps and pertussis are actively circulating.

        • 

          Sorry Heidi, you are mistaken. Pertussis is not a live vaccine and cannot transmit pertussis following vaccination.

          Your children do not have protection against rubella. You are depending on others in the community to vaccinate their children against measles, mumps and rubella. You are a free rider.

      • 

        Breastfeeding, whereupon they get the mother’s immunities without toxic vaccination cocktails. But most won’t and would rather give their child another unhealthy cocktail – that of formula.

        • 

          I needed a tetanus booster a few years ago, and my then 83-y.o. mother said I was out of luck on the breastfeeding. You are typical of the Look At Me and My Non-toxic Breast Milk fools: your breast milk is contaminated by the environment around you, including the toxins. More on this topic in a recent book: http://thenewdaughter.com/on-immunity-by-eula-biss/

        • 
          Notnearlyanonymous October 4, 2014 at 2:18 pm

          Penthesilea Greenleaf,
          No, most do breastfeed. “In 2011, 79% of newborn infants started to breastfeed.” (http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/pdf/2014breastfeedingreportcard.pdf).

          And what should the infants do when breastfeeding stops but the infant is not yet making antibodies to some of the most contagious and potentially harmful diseases?
          Did you think breastfed children can’t get measles, mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox, etc.?
          Did you think the antibodies from the mother last for the infant’s life?
          Did you think all the mother’s antibodies (IgG, IgA, IgE) are all abundant in breastmilk?

          Honestly, I’m interested. Please explain your understanding of the immune system.
          I promise not to jump down your throat for any misconceptions. And there’s a very good chance I’ll learn something from others on this thread who know more about immunity than me.

        • 

          Can you please provide some evidence for that? My youngest was only six months old when she got chicken pox, and she was fully breastfed. So if breast milk is so magical how come I had a baby covered in pox (some very close to her eyes) who screamed most of the night because of the itching.

          • 

            Chris, do you mean to tell me your little babe wasn’t vaccinated right out of the womb? lol Truly, colostrum is the immune system builder, but guess it also depends on what Mom ate, drank and was exposed to. All these things count. Quit asking silly questions…always evidence you people ask for. Well, we want evidence that vaccines work and don’t kill or maim children. That I have personally seen, but you don’t seem to want to tell the truth here and seem to prefer lies over truth. People could show you tons of evidence but you always poo poo it and say it’s fake. Well, guess what, all your copied and pasted crap is fake, all created by the Big Pharma. I just read an article of a small few weeks old baby dying after she was jabbed with many vaccines pretty much out of the womb. They had a picture of before and after and the after was a different picture with the left side of her face drooping. Anyway, she died, so much for your fake scientific studies.

            • 

              I’m sorry, in what universe is the varicella vaccine given before a child is a year old?

              Also, this was in 1994, a year before the varicella vaccine was available. Does your universe also include time travel?

              “Well, guess what, all your copied and pasted crap is fake, all created by the Big Pharma.”

              Dear brave Anonymous, please tell me exactly what website I copied and pasted from.

              “I just read an article of a small few weeks old baby dying after she was jabbed with many vaccines pretty much out of the womb”

              And yet you did not provide a link to this very important news! Perhaps you need some help determining what is dreck and what is not dreck on the internet. Because you seem to have issues figuring out the difference between fantasy and reality.

              By the way my oldest child had seizures as a two day old newborn, and was in an infant care center until he was a week old. Can you please tell me what vaccine did that in 1988? Really, tell me what vaccine was given to babies as newborns in 1988. I really want to know.

              Then tell me how breastfeeding would have prevented those seizures, because that was all the kid had until he ended up in the Intermediate Infant Care Unit. Your answer could be as entertaining as the guy who claimed it was because of cow milk. Which the newborn never had.before the seizure.

            • 

              “Quit asking silly questions…always evidence you people ask for”

              You are hilarious. You get to make stuff up like the vaccines can be given just after birth, and yet you think it is silly to ask for evidence.
              .
              “Well, we want evidence that vaccines work and don’t kill or maim children.”

              Here, knock yourself out, this has only been posted a few times, perhaps this time it will actually be clicked on and read:
              Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

              Also, if you don’t think vaccines work, then please explain why incidence of measles dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA, as noted with the following census data. Please do not mention deaths (mortality), any other decade nor any other country.
              From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
              Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
              1912 . . . 310.0
              1920 . . . 480.5
              1925 . . . 194.3
              1930 . . . 340.8
              1935 . . . 584.6
              1940 . . . 220.7
              1945 . . . 110.2
              1950 . . . 210.1
              1955 . . . 337.9
              1960 . . . 245.4
              1965 . . . 135.1
              1970 . . . . 23.2
              1975 . . . . 11.3
              1980 . . . . . 5.9
              1985 . . . . . 1.2
              1990 . . . . .11.2
              1991 . . . . . .3.8
              1992 . . . . . .0.9
              1993 . . . . . .0.1
              1994 . . . . . .0.4
              1995 . . . . . .0.1
              1996 . . . . . .0.2
              1997 . . . . . . 0.1

              • 

                God hates vaccines.

                We are told seven times in Genesis that creation was made “after its kind.” The word “kind” could be translated DNA, as kind refers to species. This is the mark of God on His creation. When profligate man intentionally destroys that mark and substitutes his own mark, that is the epitome of evil. Vaccines, containing DNA of monkeys, dogs, bacteria, and other creatures including mankind (aborted human fetal cells are components of several vaccines), are abominable for three specific reasons.

                First, they obscure the DNA of mankind. There are natural barriers to prevent the crossing of the species. That is why diseases don’t usually cross over to man from animals unless they have been manipulated in a lab. The fallen angels (demons) mated with human women and bred the Nephilim in an attempt to purposely destroy mankind in order that the Messiah could not be born into the human race. Thus, the Flood came to save man and the Messianic bloodline by wiping out the corrupted DNA; are we not told that Noah was “perfect in his GENErations”?

                Second, vaccines are injected into the blood. “The life is in the blood.” Yes, they are intramuscular but that goes directly into the blood. Dr. Tim O’Shea documents that when the administration of vaccines was switched to hypodermics as compared to simple lancets that merely scraped the skin, the rate of vaccine death skyrocketed. We are commanded not to eat or drink the blood, which is a rebellious practice by those who do not obey God. If eating of blood is forbidden, how much moreso is injecting it into the very life of mankind?

                Third, we are created with a most marvelous immune system that is intended to protect us against disease. Vaccines defy that divine system. Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely. This is similar to what happens when a vaccine is injected into the body versus a natural immune response to pathogens.

                Vaccines, in violation of these eternal commands and divine design, are therefore damned.

                The “power” of vaccines is in “accord with the activity of Satan” and a “false wonder.” No true immunity is conferred. Immunization via vaccines is a lie. A lie is deception. Deception is not for God’s people. He desires and commands us to know the truth. However, as God Himself is a warrior who fights for His people when they obey but fights against them when they disobey (the entirety of the Old Testament documents this), He uses deception as a strategy of warfare. This is a hard truth, but if we embrace what God has forbidden, we are damned:

                “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

                So here’s one for you Chris. I don’t believe your copy and pasted garbage from the big Pharma, for they are not of God and I am all for God, so I have wisdom. There has been no decline of disease anywhere, kids are still getting measles and all the other diseases, even ones who had the vaccines. Vaccines, as I said, change the DNA and that is not of God because he created US and our DNA. People need to actually use their own brains instead of allowing “man” to program. I swear you all have chips in your brains being programmed on a daily basis. You are believing all that you are told and yet simply put, that’s still not evidence. Evidence is seeing it with your own eyes, such as I have with the children who were vaccinated, who either died or were maimed or just sickly beings their entire lives. Proof is in the pudding, as they say, not lies from the Big Pharma. I actually feel sorry for people who are so brain washed they don’t even know how to use their brains anymore. So, say what you want, call me names, tell me I am stupid but the question here is, how much do you really think you know when you really know nothing at all. No proof, just copied and paste words from liars. Wow, I should be dead I guess, since the only vaccines I had in my life were just a couple, when I was a young tot with no voice or the ability to say NO, and I don’t take drugs, never had a flu shot, no pneumonia shot, nothing, and I don’t get sick…go figure! lol

                • 

                  “God hates vaccines.”

                  Which one? And what evidence do you have that this particular deity made measles incidence drop 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970?

                  “We are told seven times in Genesis that creation was made “after its kind.””

                  So we are believe multiple translated stories written a few thousand years ago by unknown persons instead of modern science?

                  “The fallen angels (demons) mated with human women and bred the Nephilim in an attempt to purposely destroy mankind in order that the Messiah could not be born into the human race”

                  You might want to get help with your inability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

                  “Second, vaccines are injected into the blood”

                  Factually untrue. This statement is a big clue that you do not have a clue. Vaccines are not given intravenously. They are given by a needle into the muscle or just under the skin, also in a spray through the nose and as a liquid taken in the mouth. There was a intravenous malaria vaccine that was developed, but that is a very difficult way to administer in the targeted areas.

                  “Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely.”

                  Also factually untrue. It is a very bad idea to get medical advice from fairy tales.

                  “Dr. Tim O’Shea” is a chiropractor, he is not a real medical doctor and also does not have a clue. Generally it is a bad idea to get medical information outside of lower back pain from chiropractors.

                  “I don’t believe your copy and pasted garbage from the big Pharma,”

                  Again, I ask; tell me where I copy and pasted from? Did you actually try to Google my words? Where would “Big Pharma” post about my fully breastfed six month old getting chicken pox? Since when is the US Census Bureau part of “Big Pharma”?

                  “Wow, I should be dead I guess, since the only vaccines I had in my life were just a couple, when I was a young tot with no voice or the ability to say NO, and I don’t take drugs, never had a flu shot, no pneumonia shot, nothing, and I don’t get sick…go figure! lol”

                  Actually you are both lucky and are fortunate to live where most people are vaccinated, there are functioning sewers and clean water.

                  I would never call you stupid, but I would question your education. Your last sentence indicates that you have never taken a course in statistics, and the rest of your paragraphs show you have never taken any science or history classes past elementary school. If you have an open mind you could work on those deficits by taking classes at a local community college. But it is quite clear that you have made sure no new information gets inside your head.

                • 
                  Notnearlyanonymous October 5, 2014 at 12:04 pm

                  Anonymous,
                  Please point to any one of the citations from http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
                  and tell us what your evidence is that the citation you chose is “fake.”

                  Just one.

                  …..waiting…….

                  …still waiting…..

                  This could take a while.

                  In the time this takes, how many children with “the most awesome immune system” will suffer, and maybe die, from vaccine-preventable diseases?

                • 
                  confusedbylogic October 5, 2014 at 12:18 pm

                  “God hates vaccines.”

                  Why does your god save so many who are vaccinated over those who are not?
                  Why does your god allow researchers to keep making and improving vaccines?
                  Why does your god not strike down anyone who makes, promotes, uses vaccines?

                  Either he doesn’t hate vaccines, or he’s a bit of a weenie, don’t you think?

                • 

                  You’re just an internet troll – you must be because no sane person would truly believe the utter nonsense you have posted – or expect other rational beings to believe these nonsensical rantings.

                  • 

                    LOL J. Bankston, I think YOU all are the trolls and paid Pharma shills. You think it’s utter nonsense because I bet you are also an ATHEIST and not of God and you will see in the end who is right, and it’s none of you. I am not trying to convince anyone not to vaccinate, I am only stating my own opinion. I have been on BOTH sides, I will say once again, and worked in the Medical Field at one time. Guess how many people I saw die from drugs and Doctor’s who, btw, are only practicing on us like guinea pigs? So, I have been on both sides and made a decision that has not only saved my life but I have shown others how to clean up cancer and many other things without the Medical field and their little magic pills and vaccines. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. I have nothing left to say now, waste of time when people don’t use wisdom and give these things some actual thought. There are always two sides, and I am on the one that doesn’t rake in the money and doesn’t kill people. Man, I feel so very sorry for people who only know one way.

                    • 
                      confusedbylogic October 5, 2014 at 9:57 pm

                      And I cured you of fantasy.

                      Oops, there’s no evidence for that either.

                    • 

                      Again, which “God”? Surely not the one worshiped by the Sisters of Saint Francis of St. Marys Hospital where my son got open heart surgery. They really want both the employees and patients to be fully vaccinated. Are you going to accuse those nuns of being atheists?

                      Obviously because their God believes in giving humans the ability to reason and figure out how to use science to save people.

                      So, again I ask: how did your particular deity cause measles incidence in the USA to drop 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Please provide real verifiable evidence as “blatant assertion” is not acceptable.

                      (By the way, folks: Rochester, MN is a very weird place. It is literally in the middle of nowhere being a ninety minute shuttle ride from the Twin Cities airport. But it is a town surrounding a world class medical center, with shuttles transporting patients between the main down medical center to the large hospital. It has its own travel agency which consists of two over worked women in a small windowless office on a long confusing curvy hallway.)

                    • 

                      Goodbye and good riddance to bad rubbish from someone still in the health care field who has seen firsthand the devastating effects resulting from not properly vaccinating kids.

                    • 

                      Why do you have nothing left to say? You have not responded to notnearlyanonymous’ question yet, so I ask you as well:

                      Please point to any one of the citations from http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
                      and tell us what your evidence is that the citation you chose is “fake.”

                      If you don’t respond again, we will know that’s because you can’t and it will prove us right and you wrong.

                • 

                  Tell them the truth like it is Chris, you are one critical thinker, unlike most of the sheeple on this page!!! Let them continue to believe big pharma’s lies. Just ask yourselves sheeple who has the most to gain from vaccines? BIG PHARMA THAT’S WHO!
                  Follow the money and the lies!

                  • 

                    Really? Especially with the prices that certain governmental agencies negotiate with pharmaceutical companies for vaccines? Go find a legitimate pricing issue to gripe about – like the cost of recent cancer fighting drugs.

                    • 

                      Who needs the Medical field J. Bankston? I had a very aggressive cancer called Inflammatory Breast Cancer, and I had no chemo or radiation or drugs and came through it naturally. If people will pull their heads out of the sand, they will see there is a whole other side. Doctor’s get 350,000 bucks per chemo treatment…it’s all a money game and they don’t cure the cancer, they kill off what might be there, but the problem is INSIDE the body and it will be back eventually if you don’t make some changes.

                    • 

                      Please provide the evidence that any doctor has received $350,000 for an individual chemotherapy treatment, along with the contact info for the doctor. I’d love to call him/her out on it.

                    • 

                      If you think I’d reveal any Dr’s name to you that I personally know, you are more delusional than I thought. lol I don’t bother with you liars anymore because you tell us to present evidence and then call us liars when we do, or discredit whoever said or wrote whatever. Trust me, they don’t pump that poison into people for mere pennies. I don’t know what planet you are on, but notice you say nothing about the fact that I and many, many others have beat cancer with natural methods. That’s because you know it can be done, but hush, don’t let the sheeple know because then the big pharma would be out of tons of money and most likely not exist. I personally know Doctor’s who tell me that they all lie and they know the truth, but never would I reveal their names because duh, then they’d be in trouble. I don’t do people that way, I protect them because they do care and actually don’t follow all the big Pharma tells them to.

                    • 

                      “They’d be in trouble,” with whom? There is no law that say doctors must lie to patients. There are laws saying they cannot do so, and if caught can be sued, fined, jailed – and if you look at the public notices produced by every state medical board you can read who those doctors are.
                      But you refuse to give up the name of a single doctor that you state makes >$340k per chemo treatment. Why would you refuse to give up the name of someone you are accusing of wrong-doing? I really don’t get that. Why would you accuse someone of being exactly the sort you are crusading against, but refuse to name him/her?

                      What do you think is the conclusion that anyone, even someone in your own camp, would draw from the fact that you refuse to name even one person doing the things you say they are doing wrong?

                    • 

                      Ya just keep talking out your butt. Any Doctor who goes against the Medical field, yes, they will be in trouble. And I am not stupid enough to name them, You wanna know, research it your damn self. I don’t get my info from you, but have been researching both sides for 18 years. Pharma is the liar,. they program and rule Doctor’s and nothing you say will make me feel any different about my beliefs so give up, will ya? I am merely saying there are always two sides to every story and I am not buying yours and don’t give a hoot if you believe what I am saying either. I am healthy without your drugs and without any Doctor. If I break a bone, I might need an x-ray and cast and then I am the hell out of there.

                    • 

                      “Nothing you can say will make me feel any different about my beliefs.”

                      Suppose in your research you came across information that did make you change your mind. Who would that info be from? What sort of source would you trust? What sort of information might you find convincing?

                      Or are you saying that your mind is closed to any possibility of change, and no amount of information from any source could ever possibly change your mind in the least?
                      ‘Cause that would be sorta’ sad.

                    • 

                      You have shown you just make up stuff (drink snake venom?), Anonymous, so there is absolutely no reason to believe you.

                    • 

                      One thing I know for sure, is that I don’t lie and I don’t make things up. You CAN drink snake venom and suffer no repercussions because it doesn’t go into the blood stream. DUH! I don’t get paid to lie and I would never do so even if I did get paid. There really IS no reason for me to make things up or lie. I am known to be a truth speaker and most people, or sheeple, don’t like that. lol

                    • 

                      Now you’ve made another claim, that you don’t lie. When you make claims, someone is going to ask for evidence, care to provide some sort of verifiable evidence that you don’t lie?
                      Would you believe me, or anyone, who simply made such a claim?
                      If you make claims without giving people a reason to believe you, what is the purpose then in bothering to write then down?

                    • 

                      The full quote: “Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely.”

                      You made a medical claim, dear brave Anonymous, and yet you won’t back it up. I am pretty sure you don’t think you are lying because you are delusional. You may rant and rave all you want about that label, but you are the one that made outrageous unverifiable claims.

                      If you don’t like being thought of as someone who needs real mental health care, then don’t post so many accusations and strange stories.

                    • 

                      You are still blah, blah, blahing, aren’t you Chris? Because you have only one way of thinking and won’t go out of that realm, you are missing out on a lot of good information. As I said, I won’t reveal any names to you, nor mine, for protection. Only God, (who you don’t know) knows how they are tampering with all things good now, versus the drugs. They don’t want us to do anything BUT take drugs, because it keeps us sick and keeps them in money. You can look up just about anything and that’s another reason Ovomit wants the internet to go down. And on top of that, I have seen the snake venom thing proved, because someone was stupid enough to do it, but that someone wasn’t me and it didn’t affect him at all. I hate snakes, so want nothing to do with them and wouldn’t be 100 feet next to one but I know that unless they pierce and inject the venom into you, it’s not poison. The closed minds here blow me away. I am alive and well, no vaccines and no drugs so nope, you won’t convince me of any of these things being safe and I am not spreading anything around because I don’t get sick. If Ebola (another hype and created in a Lab) comes to my area, I will be okay because I have a good immune system and know what to take anyway if I should happen to be bothered in the least.. People can look ripe and tasty on the outside like a nice fresh apple but on the inside, they are mush and it’s the immune compromised ones that will go down with Ebola or any of the other things they are intentionally putting out there. Open up those blinded eyes. You could know what I know if you wanted to dive into researching it, but you don’t. However, that said, I believe you DO know, another Dr. said you are all liars anyway and know what drugs and crap do to people but you don’t care, because the almighty dollar is more important to you than the lives of human beings. Ta ta, no more for me, sick of talking to sheeple.

                    • 
                      confusedbylogic October 6, 2014 at 8:47 pm

                      Anonymous wrote, “You could know what I know if you wanted to dive into researching it”

                      What does the verb “research” mean to you?
                      I don’t understand. What is it that you would like Chris (or any of us) to do in order to obtain the knowledge you have?

                      What is it, exactly, that you do when you research?

                    • 

                      “And on top of that, I have seen the snake venom thing proved, because someone was stupid enough to do it, but that someone wasn’t me and it didn’t affect him at all.”

                      You really need to be careful with those visions. Please get some real help. If not for yourself, but for your family.

                    • 

                      Dear Brave Anonymous: “You wanna know, research it your damn self. I don’t get my info from you, but have been researching both sides for 18 years.”

                      So what do you use to “research”? What do you consider reliable sources? Why should we trust them?

                      “Pharma is the liar,.”

                      Pharmaceutical companies are not sentient entities, but large groups of individuals. They need to make their products conform to many regulations. Plus the post-license testing and epidemiological studies are not done by them. You still have not provided any reason other than vaccines for the reason that measles incidence dropped in the USA 90% between 1960 and 1970. Or why the US Census Bureau is part of “Big Pharma” lies, they only tabulate the reported numbers.

                      Ignoring the hard work by scientists and medical professionals to keep thousands of kids becoming permanently disabled and several hundred dying ear year from measles before 1965… and then claim “God did it” is what makes you either delusional or a liar.

                      Also, how can you ignore the blatant lies from the likes of Andrew Wakefield, Mark Geier, Boyd Haley, Amy Yasko, Rashid Buttar and the others that have used the “vaccines cause autism” scare to raid the wallets of desperate parents? Ignoring the greed and lies of those people is also delusional.

                      Get professional help. If not for yourself, do it for your family.

                  • 

                    “Follow the money and the lies!”

                    This intrigues me. Can you please provide the economic analysis that shows not providing vaccines would be more cost effective and keep funds away from pharmaceutical companies and hospitals. Because I was under the impression, and obviously it is flawed, that preventing diseases is more cost effective than treating them.

                    Since my children are old enough to have gotten some now vaccine preventable diseases I know what it is like to have your life affected by three kids with chicken pox for a month, and then there was the 911 call and eventual ambulance trip to the hospital because one child had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease. Why would I not want to prevent that? Why would anyone want kids to suffer from measles, mumps, Hib, etc? Explain that to me.

                    So, if you could, please provide a well documented report on how not vaccinating is more cost effective. Make sure it is comparable to Economic Evaluation of the Routine Childhood Immunization Program in the United States, 2009.

                    Plus, for additional reference there is this analysis of how much California had to spend during the 1990 measles epidemic: Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.. You can also look up data points from recent measles outbreaks in Wales where almost one out of ten measles cases ended up in the hospital.

                    Thank you.

    • 

      Several years ago I had a friend who was pregnant and babysat for a woman’s children. These children apparently were unvaccinated due to the family’s religious beliefs. They came down with German measles and gave it to my pregnant friend(who thought she had already had it as a child, since back when she was young they didn’t have vaccinations against measles). As a result, my friend’s baby was born deaf…something that she has learned to adapt to, but something that could and should have been prevented.

    • 

      Kirsty, my cousin’s daughter has lupus, which is an auto-immune disease. She is only able to receive vaccines that contain killed viruses. Some vaccines only have a live virus form and she cannot be vaccinated against those diseases. Her only protection against those types of diseases is herd immunity of otherwise healthy people.

  5. 

    As a ER RN for 17 years I have not meet or heard of an autism case that has not been vaccinated. It has always been curious to me. In fact, sick children are all screened in the ER for their immunization history. Living in Cali I would think I would see many sick unvaccinated children but I do not. I am not against the development of vaccinations and I am sure they have their place, but just because the scientist have not found the link does not mean there is no link. As humans, we can sometimes be egotistical.– thinking we know it all. We are all still learning new things from the world daily. I support continual testing on the vaccines as well as a parents and individual freedom of choice. I am done being bullied to believe that vaccines are safe and I should just comply. This video was a strong example of the current bulling in the medical community.

    • 

      We have the numbers on sick unvaccinated children, and they are much more likely to be sick with vaccine-preventable diseases than vaccinated children. Maybe sick people stayed away from your ER because with nurses like you, it probably has a low standard of care.

      • 

        Another attempt at bulling. Please Andrew without insulting…. Give me information on an autistic unvaccinated child. I again state vaccines have their place but I am concerned with the safety. Science change and discoveries are made all the time. I am allowed to share my observations without being bullied or put down.

        • 

          Stephanie, here’s a study of 498 autistic children retrospectively comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated groups (the vaccine in this case being MMR):

          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673699012398 .

          The authors found no differences in autism rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There are many, many other studies confirming this result.

          Do you believe that your personal experience is more authoritative than scientific studies of thousands of autistic children to test this very question? If so, why?

          • 

            I have a vaccine injured autistic son who is 22. I live this “lie” of yours EVERY DAY. There IS mercury in vaccines STILL TO THIS DAY- the flu vaccine for example. And if you are telling the truth, then what about William Thompson from the CDC? http://benswann.com/cdc-whistleblower-admits-suppressing-information-regarding-vaccines-and-autism/

            One of you is lying! And it’s YOU.

            • 

              “the flu vaccine for example. ”

              What about the four influenza vaccines on this list that are thimerosal free? Also, the MMR vaccine has never had thimerosal, all the way back to its 1971 introduction. It is the vaccine that Hooker reworked the numbers for, and the one that Dr. Raff listed a study on.

              Making a claim about thimerosal on the MMR vaccine and neglecting that about half of the influenza vaccines that have no thimerosal is either due to not actually knowing the details, or ignoring those details.

          • 

            Regarding the study that compare vaccinated versus unvaccinated children, mentioned from doctor Raff, I think (but I am a simple technician, not a doctor) that cannot be excluded (apart from obvious environmental causes or genetic causes) that ALL the vaccines, and not only MMR, cause autism. The mentioned study from Prof. Brent Taylor et al., may perhaps exclude that MMR causes autism, but cannot exclude that vaccines in general , not the single MMR, could cause autism.
            Dear Doctor Raff, may ask you if you know a study, ONLY ONE, that compare for a number of years, vaccinated children versus COMPLETELY unvaccinated children, with regard to the autism? Thank you very much for your courtesy and excuse my poor english. Crescenzo Murolo.

            • 

              “ONLY ONE, that compare for a number of years, vaccinated children versus COMPLETELY unvaccinated children, with regard to the autism? Thank you very much for your courtesy and excuse my poor english.”

              Ever heard of PubMed.gov? Why don’t you look for yourself and not ask someone else to do your homework for you? While you are at it look up the “Declaration of Helsinki” and the “Belmont Report” to learn that what you are asking for is against human study ethics. I am sure you can find that information in Italian.

              In the mean time, go back and read the paper I pointed you to the last time: Vaccines are not associated with autism: An evidence-based meta-analysis of case-control and cohort studies (a pdf of the uncorrected proof)

            • 

              By the way, many of these studies are “epidemiological” where some children are unvacccinated:
              Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

              There is also a paper that compared the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated children in Germany:
              Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents

              Then there is this paper, and you might want to contact the Italian authors to explain it to you:
              Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
              Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
              Authors: Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D’Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S.

              If you are still unsatisfied with those studies, then design one yourself that complies with the “Declaration of Helsinki” and the “Belmont Report.” Get it approved by an Independent Review Board to make sure is assures ethical protection of the subjects, write a grant to get it funded. Then go do it. Don’t expect others to hand feed you data just the way you want it on a very complicated subject.

            • 

              Crescenzo Murolo,
              What are the criteria of such a study that you would find convincing?
              I am interested in what sort of study you would trust and find convincing, regardless of the outcome.
              Please identify, for the study you would like to see done…
              – the # patients in each arm of the study
              – what control measures
              – selection criteria
              – assessment methods for inclusion/exclusion
              – end point measurements
              – who you want to perform the study
              – what funding you propose for the study
              – how long it should be run
              – Since we want to avoid only recruiting children of vaccine-denier parents (so that our study measures a randomly chosen group), how you would convince the parents of the study participants to knowingly leave their children exposed to the potentially serious and even fatal diseases
              – how you propose to have the patients educated, since most US districts would not permit them to be registered in public school

              I’m not suggesting you need to have perfect answers for all these questions, but I would like to know some answer for each question so that I understand what sort of study, what sort of evidence, you would find convincing in case the study actually demonstrates, again, that vacccines are vastly safer than the diseases in question.

          • 

            Dear doctor Raff, regarding what you have said to Mrs Stephany, I asked you if you can courteously give me the reference of a study that has compared along the years vaccinated children with completely unvaccinated (any vaccine) children, and I had 2 answers from Mr Chris and Mr Gewisn (that I thank for their contibution) but I hadn’t your precious opinion. Have I to consider, or may I consider, the 2 answers, in a way, as the your answer? Thank you very much. Crescenzo Murolo.

            • 

              Dear Crescenzo Murolo, Have you already considered reading the links provided to you by Mr Chris and/or answering Mr Geswins questions? If you do, I think you’ll know the answer to your own question. You’re welcome. Petra

              • 

                Dear Petra, thank you for your comment.
                Yes I have obviously considered reading the links provided by Mr Chris (to the questions of Mr Gewisn that has anwered to my question with TOO many other questions I am unable to answer to in this moment ) that has well understood my question, and the first answer he gave is probably (and for me incredibly) the explaining answer: i.e. those type of studies are NOT ETHICAL ( that is a respectful opinion but in any case an opinion, and not a scientific fact , because for example I have an opposite opinion, i.e. for me it is NOT doing that studies that is to be considered NOT ETHICAL, in any case I’ll go see the Belmont Report as suggested by dr Raff).
                The successive link given by Mr Chris has a very promising title (Vaccines are not associated with autism: an evidence based etc.), but the same author says on page 5 that the study “found no evidence for the link between vaccination and..autism” and this is as saying that the study found no proofs that vaccination is guilt, but this does NOT mean that vaccination is surely innocent .
                In the second link given by Mr Chris there were plenty of studies but no study compared vaccinated children versus never vaccinated children with regard to the autisms (in detail, there were only two study with unvaccinated people (a japanese study, a Poland study ) but they were focused on MMR (and from the context I suppose not vaccinated meant not MMR vaccinated: in any case the articles didn’t explicitly say never vaccinated ).
                The third link is a German study that is very interesting and that really consider never vaccinated people against vaccinated people: but it makes the comparision with respect to a subset of diseases in which is not included autism.
                The fourth link is a work that compare a group of children that have received “one dose” of Thimerosal with a group of children that have received “two doses” of thimerosal, and that conclude that there are not big differences between the neuropsycological performances of the two group (that is a possibility, but I don’t see how this can fit with my question) .
                Asking to do myself the study if I am not satisfied from the current studies, as suggested by Mr Chris and Gewisn, is not realistic (let us say so).

                • 

                  “The third link is a German study that is very interesting and that really consider never vaccinated people against vaccinated people: but it makes the comparision with respect to a subset of diseases in which is not included autism.”

                  So what? They looked at all sorts other things like (bolding added):

                  n addition to atopic disorders, we further compared diseases—such as obstructive bronchitis, pneumonia and otitis media, heart disease, anemia, epilepsy, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) —in unvaccinated and vaccinated subjects. No relevant differences in the lifetime prevalences were found, neither for different age groups nor between girls and boys.

                  There was not effect on those. Children with autism often also have seizures and/or ADHD. If there was not difference in prevalence for those, then there should be no difference for autism (which has had a few changes of definition).

                  Have you found a version of The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin in your language?

                  “Asking to do myself the study if I am not satisfied from the current studies, as suggested by Mr Chris and Gewisn, is not realistic (let us say so).”

                  You will understand more once you study the Belmont Report. Though if you make demands on what kind of studies you want to see, you need to learn the rules. Or just do the study yourself, where you still have to learn the rules if you do not want be legally disciplined for endangering human subjects who happen to be children.

                  • 

                    Rats, bolding did not work:

                    “In addition to atopic disorders, we further compared diseases—such as obstructive bronchitis, pneumonia and otitis media, heart disease, anemia, epilepsy, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) —in unvaccinated and vaccinated subjects. No relevant differences in the lifetime prevalences were found, neither for different age groups nor between girls and boys.”

                    Remember, if you want something done right, do it yourself. Just remember to follow the rules.

                    By the way, when my kids were in high school a group of parents arranged science talks for the students. Scientists from the local university and research companies were asked to talk about what they did. A very interesting one was the woman who headed the ethics training for human studies at the university. Every person who did research using human subjects from any department (sociology, education, business, medical, etc) were required to get training through her office. She gave a very interesting talk on how simple things could go very wrong. If you live near a research university, go and see if they have someone who trains researchers on human study ethics, and see if they will talk to you.

                    • 

                      “Children with autism often also have seizures and/or ADHD. If there was no difference in prevalence for those, then there should be no difference for autism (which has had a few changes of definition)”.
                      I completely agree with you.
                      But the phrase “in addition to atopic disorder we further compare .. epilepsy, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)… no relevant differences were found” has not any corresponding reference in the article [i.e. the words Epilepsy and ADHD absolutely have no mention in figures, summary, tables (including the final Key Messages table ), and any other part of the article, at the point that if you cut that phrase the article do not suffer completeness ] . I don’t think that this article is sufficient to say (neither the authors claim this) that autism has more or less the same incidence in vaccinated and not vaccinated people.
                      Thank you for the link; you are right, I have absolutely to study the Belmont Report.

                    • 

                      “has not any corresponding reference in the article”

                      This is where you write a polite letter to the authors for that supplemental data.

                • 

                  “…that the study “found no evidence for the link between vaccination and..autism” and this is as saying that the study found no proofs that vaccination is guilt, but this does NOT mean that vaccination is surely innocent.”

                  Dear Creszenco, Seatbelts are a precaution to avoid severe injuries or even death when in a car accident. IF wearing a seatbelt will cause injuries ( e.g. severe bruising or maybe even a broken collarbone) when in an accident, this means wearing a seatbelt will not leave you SURELY unharmed. So don’t use a seatbelt?
                  Different situation, same “logic”.

                  • 

                    Yes, if I have understood your example, you are saying that if someone wants a seat belt, he has to accept the side effects of seat bealt; I agree. But I wanted to say that NON EVIDENCE is another thing with respect to NON EXISTENCE. For example (permit me to joke) if you go in a forest, searching for the deadly Amanita Phalloides and you don’t find it, you can say that your research found NO EVIDENCE of the existence of the fungus in that forest (or, in more complicated words, your research found no evidence of the link between that forest and the fungus) BUT this doesn’t imply the NON EXISTENCE of that fungus, in that place (in other words someone else,more lucky, or more expert, could find that deadly fungus, obviously, only if it exist there).
                    Regards.

                    • 

                      Bad analogy – was this lazy search or a painstaking square-inch by square-inch search of the entire forest? You cannot compare an indifferently described search to a rigorously conducted study using internationally recognized guidelines comparing 2 or more study groups.

                    • 

                      Crescenzo,
                      When you have done the forest study enough times that there is as little chance of finding that mushroom in that forest as there is chance of finding Santa Claus, then continuing to act on the possibility of finding that mushroom in that forest is foolish.

                    • 

                      If you are so convinced there is a relation between vaccination and autism, you will NEVER believe any study about this presumed relation, unless it proves there is one. That is very sad.

            • 

              Dear Mr. Murolo, based on the general tenor of your comments I find it highly unlikely that you’re genuinely asking for information, but rather are trying to play a game of “gotcha.” If I’m correct, it isn’t worth my time to play along. If I’m wrong about your intentions, and you’re sincere, you will have my apologies and I will be happy to provide any information you wish. How can we tell? You can demonstrate to me your sincerity by explaining the main points of the Belmont report and how they might apply in this situation in your next comment. Do so, and I’ll be delighted to continue this conversation.

        • 

          Kim Stagliano’s youngest is not vaccinate. There are several mentioned in the <a href="comments of this article.

          You said: ” Living in Cali I would think I would see many sick unvaccinated children but I do not.” Please read the impact on California’s Medi-Cal by the 1990 measles epidemic: Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

          I am sure you are sincere in your observations, but they are colored by prior bias. You obviously did not work in the hospitals which handled the several babies who suffered from pertussis in 2010, or the ones dealing with the present measles outbreak in Southern California. Vaccination is very common, so you would logically see more vaccinated kids, and in a big state like California only a few hospitals would have very sick kids come through the emergency department. Add a bit of confirmation bias on your part, you could have simply forgotten if a child with a vaccine preventable disease was treated in your hospital.

          “I am allowed to share my observations without being bullied or put down.”

          Though it would help to remind you that your observations are not verifiable data. For that we would rather depend on entities like the California Department of Health, which with a quick look shows sixty one cases of measles and over eight thousand cases of pertussis for this year.

        • 

          Others have posted personal acquaintance with unvaccinated autistic children. I don’t know any, or, rather, I haven’t inquired of the medical histories of autistic adults I have known.

          Science certainly changes, but there isn’t any scientific reason to believe measles and polio will injure fewer people now than they did before the vaccines were invented. I am sure you can find some older now-retired colleagues who will tell you how unpleasant that was.

          There isn’t any reason to prefer your unverified observations to statistics collected by public health authorities. They show unvaccinated children are much more likely to get sick, and what’s more, unsuccessfully vaccinated or immunocompromised kids getting pertussis is happening disproportionately in counties with high rates of vaccine refusal.

        • 

          Stephanie,
          What if your opinions are demonstrably wrong and your opinions are leading pepper to be directly harmed? If you came to believe that was the case, how would you go about correcting the mistake?

          What if every single doctor and nurse you ever worked with told you your opinion is incorrect and dangerous, and they showed you overwhelming scientific evidence to prove the point? Would you then change your mind?
          I’m sure you are open minded enough to do that. So if evidence that extreme would change your mind, what evidence that’s not quite that extreme would change your mind?
          Would a hundred highly regarded studies change your mind? A thousand? Ten thousand?

    • 

      As a recently retired public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist, who actually investigated cases, clusters and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable-diseases, I know of cases of measles who were not screened for vaccination histories in hospital Emergency Rooms and in physicians waiting rooms…and who infected patients in hospital Emergency Rooms.

      Dr. Bob Sears, a California physician who is a “vaccine friendly doctor” (code for a physician who fails to follow the AAP Standards of Care for childhood immunizations), had a 7 year old deliberately unvaccinated patient who traveled to Switzerland where he contracted measles. The child return home and exposed children in two physicians’ waiting rooms and during two visits to a hospital waiting room. Dr. Sears’ patient was the “index case” responsible for the large 2008 San Diego measles outbreak:

      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/27/dr-bob-sears-vs-seth-mnookin-measles-out/

  6. 

    Lost in the controversy and semantics over vaccines is the fundamental devaluing of the lives of ASD individuals. The underlying implication that a child is better off risking death than being autistic points to a very ugly prejudice on the way we approach mental and neurological health. As a woman with overlapping neurological disorders, it angers and frustrates me to see a generation of children taught to define themselves by what’s wrong with them instead of how they be part of the social equation in their own way. I’m less than a year from my bachelors, am working toward my doctorate. I work in a hospital. I do good work, competent work. I help save lives every day. I know that for all the ways I’m not “normal” that my life is valuable, my contributions meaningful. But had grown up in the age of the “autism scare,” I might never have believed I could do any of that.

    • 

      This is an extremely important point, and thank you for making it. A few other ASD individuals have also commented along similar lines. I was thinking of writing a post that featured YOUR perspectives. Any interest? If so, please email me: jenniferraff (at) utexas (dot) edu.

    • 

      Of course. One reason we have seen a jump in autism diagnoses is self-sufficient, capable individuals are receiving it. I don’t think that was always true. As I’ve mentioned, there were two boys in my school who would now be called autistic, but we never heard that word, but there was also the brother of one of my friends. I don’t know if he had autism or some other congenital condition, but given that he was completely non-verbal, nor did he respond to words, it’s possible. (He wasn’t deaf.) Eventually his parents placed him in an institution, which was more common back then. I think a lot of fear parents have is that the 1:68 will be like the brother was, beyond parental resources and, frankly, not ever a source of any joy.

      Kids who died from polio don’t post their experiences on the Internet. Vaccines are responsible for millions of lives saved.

  7. 

    Those who scream the loudest can’t be taken seriously. You scream and yet you were protected by your parents! This issue has got to stop Babies are dying because of the result of a Dr (and I use the term loosely) doctoring his results so he can stand in the light of Fame. He had no love or caring for children. He has inflicted a diseases that could of been cured by a vaccine. Today with technology and all the evidence, Yet still young parents won’t vaccinate their their bundle of joy. Please if you love your BABY show it protect him-her from suffering from some ugly disease. Carry their life till grown, don’t carry flowers with tears to their grave.

  8. 

    “I’m pro-science, but I’m against what I’ll call “Spock-ism,” after the character from the TV show Star Trek. I reject the idea that science is logical, purely rational, that it is detached and value-free, and that it is, for all these reasons, morally superior.”
    -http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2014/09/12/348002248/why-atheists-need-captain-kirk

  9. 

    The study that showed a link between vaccination and autism has been proven time and again to be a complete fraud. Please vaccinate your children.

  10. 

    I am a trained physician in Anesthesiology and after seeing what we were doing in hospitals with pregnant women, i cousciously decided, knowing what i was “exposing ” myself to, to labor naturally without pain medication, with a midwife. It did not make sense to many people around me but it did too me. So for many years, i was stuck in the same position as you seems to be: it did not make sense to me why so many women would expose themselves to the controle of the medical establishment in such a delicate and life transforming moment in there lives… It has taken me much humility to put myselves in there shoes and accept that all of these women, they are not ME and they are not in the same location as i am. When it came time to consider vaccination for MY kids, as an educated physician, interested in ethics, i read on the issue but what confirmed me in my decison not to vaccinate(appart from my mother bear instinct), was to learn about the facts related to Pasteur apparently discovery of the rabies vaccine(Louise Lambrichs: La verite Medicale).

    If you are a “rigourous” physician, you cannot deny the lack of incongruencies…. And you have to syay critical…

    That beeing said, i am not saying vaccination is not working in some way BUT, if i decided not to vaccinate my 4 children, it is because i thought i could offer them all that was necessary for them to develop a strong immune system(good hygiene, balanced nutrition, balanced life, love, respect of their rythme)preparing them progressively to face whatever may come in their life, never denying that they might need the medical system but not depending on it.

    As i see my four kids groing up into themselves, balanced and autonomous(but not invicible), i know that there is no science that can tell my mother bear instinct it was wrong.

    • 

      You realize that the rabies vaccine is not on the standard American pediatric schedule, and that it has gone through refinements over the last century.

      Please thank your responsible neighbors that vaccinate. They are protecting your children by maintaining your community’s immunity to diseases by not letting them circulate.

      “as an educated physician,”

      You might try working on some basic English grammar style for us to believe that.

    • 

      I remember that same argument, “you can’t know better than the mother what is best for her child,” when it came to seatbelts. Should those women be permitted to drive with an infant on their laps?

    • 

      Anonymous (I wonder why), drop the faux humility. You aren’t the least bit humble, you have deluded yourself into believing that your clean living and your love are stronger than polio and measles viruses. (All the kids who were crippled or died, their mothers didn’t love them enough to give them sufficiently strong immunity?)

      You are wrong. People like you and your children died like flies in the pre-vaccine era.

      • 

        Maybe i have been deluting myself, as you say. But aren’t we all? Human life is so much more complex than we like to think… We just use different ways to size it down and sometime, convince ourselves we have finally “got” it! You seem to be pretty confident about that and i am happy for you. As for me, i am still searching for answers and sometime envy people like you who seems to be satisfied with the one you have found. But i have just one certainety…. I don t know much…

        • 

          Perhaps if you actually gave us some evidence to support your opinion you might be taken more seriously. Truly you are just some unknown person on the internet, so unless you provide something concrete like data showing vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases we can dismiss your story.

          • 

            Chris, you are asking data proving that vaccines are more dangerous than diseases, i unfortunatly cant give you . When i made the decision not to vaccinate, i did not have such a safety net. If you want to dismiss my story, feel free but i nonetheless was inpired by a few great thinkers you might want to look into: the great french physiologist Claude Bernard who was a proponent of the “terrain”theory, Mirko Grmek, who was a proponent of the “pathocenose”concept, maybe pathocenosis in english. I like to think that Pasteur really acknowledge , on his death bed, he (Pasteur)was wrong with his germ theory and Bernard was right with his terrain theory… We will never know but what i know for sure, from my 20 so years practicing medecine, i feel we have more chance of improving the health of population by working on the terrain as a whole(what i chose for my kids) than on the treat. I wish you all the best and thank you for taking time to read my comments, despite my bad english.

            • 

              “I like to think that Pasteur really acknowledge , on his death bed, he (Pasteur)was wrong with his germ theory and Bernard was right with his terrain theory”

              For one thing, Pasteur was a chemist. I recently read the 1926 classic book Microbe Hunters by Paul de Kruif. It went into a great deal of detail about Pasteur, if what you claim is true that would have been included. It was not. It did explain that in his last years Pasteur was in poor health, and on page 176 describes his death where is was surrounded by fellow researchers like Roux and Chamberland. If Pasteur had said anything about germ theory, then it would have been mentioned (in horror) by the man who helped discover a way to treat diphtheria, Roux.

              Someone else who has researched the claim about Bernard came up with this:

              http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm

              “We will never know but what i know for sure, from my 20 so years practicing medecine, i feel we have more chance of improving the health of population by working on the terrain as a whole”

              We have even more reason to doubt your educational claims if you cling to a 19th century notion. You might need to take a great deal of Continuing Medical Education credits in order to bring yourself up to the 21st century.

              From what I can see, you might want to get a more balanced biography of Claude Bernard, For one thing he was not a microbiologist, and I only found one instance of the word “terrain” at http://www.claude-bernard.co.uk . Most of the disagreement between Bernard and Pasteur I can gather from that site is on yeast and fermentation.

              It is probably a good thing that Mirko Grmek went from being a doctor to a historian. Even though he lived in the 20th century, his ideas were positively stuck back in the 18th century! I remember when I was in engineering college in the late 1970s there were lots of silly philosophical notions about science being bounced around (usually by people who were confused by something as simple as Newton’s three laws of motion). They were one of the reasons Alan Sokal wrote the satirical “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.”

              By the way, a very good book about pathogens and the origin of HIV/AIDS is Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Human Pandemic by David Quammen.

              • 

                I finally get why people have been looking strangely at me, walking in the OR with my whisky bottle and piece of wood, ready for anesthesia. You are right, it will take a lot of cme to pick up. I will do some reading on sufentanil and sevo before tomorrow so i may be more up to date! The exercice has been a pleasant one… Stuck in 19 century but open to 21 century blog challenges nonetheless. Thanks for the reading references, i will certainly get into them eventually! Regards

                • 

                  Perhaps, but subscribing to 19th century arguments that are only discussed by on anti-science websites does not help your credibility. But, sure, there have been those who have gone through medical school that believe in homeopathy, despite it being impossible.

                  Microbe Hunters is a book of its time, with lots of florid and colorful imagery. Some of it very politically incorrect. But what they went through to get to some kind of understanding of how the world works is fairly well described. The chapter on Roux and Behring is subtitled “Massacre of the Guinea Pigs.” Much of what is discussed has changed in the past ninety years (like antibiotics for syphilis instead of Erhrlich’s arsenic based remedy).

                  Another more recent book about Pasteur’s work is Rabid by Bill Wasik and Monica Murphy. It skips Pasteur’s work that disproved spontaneous generation of yeasts and things that spoil wine, vinegar, both, milk etc, but goes much more deeply into the rabies research.

                  Another one on the history of trying to find what causes influenza, and the modernization of medicine is The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History by John M. Barry.

                  For more detailed discussions on microbiology and some of the history of discovery there is series of podcasts by a professor/researcher at Columbia Univ. in New York City.. It includes virology, parasitology and microbiology. There is even one conversation with one of the sons of Jonas Salk, the man responsible for the killed polio vaccine. You can find all of the links at http://www.virology.ws/ .

                  I suspect the so-called “terrain” (not the hills we hike on), can be more accurately and scientifically described as our own biochemistry which is modified by the variations in our DNA. Bernard seemed to work mostly in biochemistry, like with glucose, his pioneering work in experimental medicine made him very familiar on how animals function. But the antibodies in our blood are reactions to pathogens, vaccine antigens (and sometimes tree pollen), and the other chemicals made to maintain function, like insulin (ooh, another good medical history book: Breakthrough: Elizabeth Hughes, the Discovery of Insulin, and the Making of a Medical Miracle by Thea Cooper and Arthur Ainsberg).

        • 

          I would agree with that last bit, I find that the more I learn, the ever increasing number of questions I have.

    • 

      I find it hard to believe that you are the trained physician you claim to be given your poor language skills.

      • 

        I am a trained “french speaking” physician who just thought this blog was a forum to share experience, as Dr Staff stated. My mistake. But thank you for bringing up my poor english skills!

        • 

          You are welcome to share your experiences, and thanks for clarifying that English isn’t your first language. Nobody intends rudeness–it’s just that we’ve had a huge number of people commenting who claim to be physicians, but then turn out to have correspondence degrees in homeopathy or the like.

          • 

            Jennifer, i thank you for given me the opportunity to express myself. It is no secret in my direct community how i have approach child birth and vaccination but we don t get into discussion about it. I will try to look a little bit more into the numbers cited althought, statistics and me have never been good friends. I have always refuse to consider my patients as statistics number, truly convince it took away there freedom to evolve along their own path. Maybe i trought the baby with the water? Anyways, good luck with your research, you are keeping the debat alive!

            • 
              Notnearlyanonymous September 24, 2014 at 11:11 pm

              Renee,
              When you write, “I have always refuse to consider my patients as statistics number, truly convince it took away there freedom to evolve along their own path.” I think I understand that you mean that each patient needs to be considered as a separate person, not as simply one of many. And I agree. You have to take the whole person into account before making any complicated decision, and not just the one organ or one system you think to be the center of the matter.

              However, some things in medicine are not really a matter of opinion or personal difference.
              Would you tell a mother that her 6-yr old with a complex fracture of the radius will “probably do just fine” without at least setting and casting the bone? Would you tell a tell a 9 yr old, “Sure, your glucose is way above normal at 324, but it’s probably nothing. Come back to see me in 6 months?” Or would you say, “Stepping on a rusty nail doesn’t require a tetanus shot, even though you’ve never had one. I’ll bet your immune system is strong enough to manage?”
              Of course you would not!

              So why is the overwhelming evidence of the value of vaccination different?
              If you knew that receiving the MMR vaccine reduced the chance of getting a;ny of the three covered diseases to essentially zero, and the chance of a serious complication was less than 1/100000, why would you do anything other than strongly recommend the vaccine?
              What is the value in Not recommending it to your patients?

        • 

          Thank you for clarifying that English is not your primary language. It’s all too common for some folks on various forums to claim to be who they are not in actuality while hiding behind the cloak of anonymity provided by the internet – and oftentimes, it’s their use of language that betrays them.

    • 

      Excellent information for those who have no clue!

  11. 

    Dear Jennifer, you seem like a sincere, honest person. Please read this… If you talk to me and I’ll explain what an honest healer should do in this conundrum: This is a very passionately written article. It will be a lot of work to get through all the references, but I might just do that. I have an opinion only one of your points… where you imply that alternative medicine is not better than scientific, evidence based medicine. I have studied and used natural medicine all my life. In my opinion, over 90 percent of science based medicine is either harmful or ineffective. In my opinion, more than 90 percent of illnesses can either be prevented or cured by natural medicine and the medical establishment is being narrow minded and actually lying about their effectiveness. They are causing far more problems than they are “curing” (that word is a lie coming from modern medical practitioners). The only caveat I have about natural medicine is that it should be implemented by a qualified, educated and experienced “doctor”. A lot of harm is being done by ill-informed and misinformed amateurs trying to use natural medicine. Other than that, even I, as an amateur can either prevent or cure a lot of illnesses that people take harmful “medicine” for. They are ingesting known poisons in the name of “medicine” when perfectly legitimate natural cures are available. Such behaviour should be considered a crime. People are dying because of the irresponsible attitude / behaviour of narrow minded, uneducated “medicine” prescribing, scientific based “doctors”. I feel very strongly about this deception. It’s criminal.

    • 

      You are correct neerajvarma, I beat IBC naturally. This is God’s way of treatment, not to load our bodies with pure poison! Amen!

      • 
        Notnearlyanonymous October 6, 2014 at 8:37 pm

        So then why did your god invent the disease in the first place?
        And why did so many suffer and die from illnesses before medicines were invented?

  12. 

    Here is an “alternative” medicine that has been researched more than anything else in the world… why isn’t this being used as standard practice by evidence based physicians? Because they are just as emotional as the rest of the population and are more concerned with proving themselves right than actually looking at the science: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/8

  13. 

    My daughter had her MMR vaccine at 16 months. She has had chronic ITP (Immune Thrombocytopenia Purpura) for two years since she was vaccinated. ITP can be fatal. She has had 2-4 doctors and hospital visits for the past two years. There is a documented link to MMR and ITP, My two other children did not have the MMR vaccine because of this!

    • 

      How is your claim with the NVICP going since ITP is a table injury? Also what is the rate of ITP with the MMR versus actually getting measles, mumps and rubella? You may want to encourage others who can to become fully vaccinated to protect your other children.

    • 

      It seems that if your child got ITP from the MMR, your other children are at higher risk if they actually come into contact with anyone infected with measles, mumps and rubella. While the NVICP has paid at least half a million dollars to some who had severe ITP from the MMR, there is no compensation for getting ITP from an actual viral infection.

      I hope your NVICP claim goes well, good luck.

    • 

      Wendy Grace Allen,
      When you write “My daughter had her MMR vaccine at 16 months. She has had chronic ITP (Immune Thrombocytopenia Purpura) for two years since she was vaccinated….My two other children did not have the MMR vaccine because of this!”
      It seems like you are arguing, “Since a very rare serious event happened to one of my children, I’m going to assure the rest are exposed to much more common serious events.”
      Is that what you mean?

      If one of your children was critically injured by the seatbelt during a crash, would you then refuse to buckle up the other children after that? How is that different than the conclusion you gave above?

  14. 

    With that logic, DO get your child(ren) vaccinated – then you don’t have to concern yourself with the fact that my child isn’t :)

    • 

      Unless, of course, your child’s vaccination doesn’t take, or is has chemo, or something like that. But, whatever, just thinning the herd! My child, says Penthesilea, has a Badass Immune System and is just so perfect.

    • 

      Please thank your responsible neighbors who do vaccinate their families, because they are bolstering your community’s immunity to some very serious diseases.

      But due to forward thinking parents like you, it is not enough and we are seeing outbreaks. I hope you are good with your child staying home when there is an outbreak of pertussis, measles, mumps or chicken pox at their school.

  15. 

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/01/vaccine-side-effects-extremely-rare/11779521/

    The most dangerous thing about vaccines is driving to the office to get them.

  16. 

    I have a son that was vaccinated. My son has autism. Do I believe the vaccine caused it. No. I believe the ear infection that caused his temperature to spike in Tylenol to 105 resulting in him going into a seizure and am ambulance ride to the hospital is the cause. But there are no vaccinations for ear infections. Some of you will disagree with me and still insist it must somehow be the fault of the immunizations. But I can’t help you people. You will argue just for arguments sake.
    I also have other children with ADD. Still don’t think it was a vaccine. Pretty sure it’s genetics what with my children’s many aunts, uncles, cousins and even a grandparent with either ADD or ADHD.
    But like I said. You will believe what you want regardless of the preponderance of the evidence. No one can help you. And I am sorry for that.

    • 

      Oh my goodness, can’t believe what I just read. Sorry, but that has to be the dumbest remark I have ever read. There are no vaccinations for ear infections?? Seriously, if you can’t put two and two together that he got sick because of the vaccines because they kill the immune system and the fact you have other children with autism or whatever, you are truly blinded and delusional. These things are not inherited and if they can be, it’s because the vaccines carry on into your life until the day you die. Vaccines ingredients and the health issues are passed through the placenta of the Mom. My friend had a cat who was never ever vaccinated…she had the cat tested and yet the cat had vaccine residue in it’s system..really? So, either that came from vaccinated parents or it’s the crap they spray in the air and put into other drugs, which I know you don’t believe. I do pity people for their complete blindness though.

      • 

        Where’s your scientific proof vaccines kill the immune system? If they did, all people ever vaccinated would have died from infections before reaching adulthood.
        I’ve been following this discussion for a while and it’s clear to me who’s “dumb, blinded and delusional”, and I feel sorry for their children who will suffer from that.

      • 

        Bernadette,
        Oh my goodness, can’t believe what I just read. Sorry, but that has to be the dumbest remark I have ever read.

        Please explain your understanding of how the immune system works.

      • 

        Like, no one had ear infections before vaccines! Except, measles caused many ear infections, and a lot of deafness. Where’d that all go anyway? Oh, I remember: organic food fixed all that, just by total coincidence at the time the vaccine was released.

        Antivaxers think their Magnificent Badass Immune Systems will crush smallpox, polio, diphtheria, and measles, but wither in the face of weakened versions in vaccines. It’s not surprising that on another site an antivax crank condemned that unnatural invention: spectacles.

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