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Science

Open thread: please share your thoughts!

My most recent post (“Dear parents, you are being lied to”) has sparked a very lively discussion. I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts on it, but I also want to follow up by asking for your reactions to one comment that I found particularly interesting. (I’ve edited it a bit for brevity)

As a pediatrician who’s spent extensive time working in the US and overseas and has seen children die from EVERY disease (except small pox) for which there is a vaccine I am appalled at the lack of education by the general public on the vaccine issue. This is my rant: I had two unvaccinated children in the US die from whooping cough, one from tetanus, and 2 from meningitis in the past few years. Perhaps this reflects our country’s generally poor understanding of math and science in general. A recent large study in the US showed that no matter how scientists try to educate US parents about disease and disease prevention, whether it is vaccines or hand washing, parents simply cannot follow the logic.

It’s devastating to see children die from preventable disease and despicable that it is happening here. I would like to know why those whose children end up in the PICU with tetanus or whooping cough now trust us to save the life of their child? Why do you run to a doctor when you are terrified your child has tetanus after refusing to vaccinate? Why am I now competent to save your child’s life when they have meningitis or epiglottis, but I wasn’t competent enough to keep them from getting sick? If there was no medical help for your unvaccinated child if they acquired a vaccine preventable illness would you think about vaccinating? If you’re not willing to run to your anti-vaccine friend, treat your child with advice from non-scientific sites on the internet, go to your chiropractor, or your holistic healer with your dying child perhaps you shouldn’t be taking their advice about vaccines. –Anonymous

To those of you who simply don’t trust the medical community’s use of vaccines, I am curious what you make of this physician’s point. Given your reservations about vaccines, do you trust an MD to treat yourself or your children for any medical issues at all? If so, why do you trust his/her education and experience on some points but not others?

I invite anyone, pro- or anti-vax, to share your thoughts on this. Please respect each other by following the commenting policies (and feel free to alert me if I miss a comment in violation of them).

 

About Jennifer Raff

Scientist, martial artist, reader. In pursuit of the extraordinary.

Discussion

1,556 thoughts on “Open thread: please share your thoughts!

  1. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf And this isn’t even up to date. You all seem to be dilusional about what is safe and what’s not.

    Posted by Anonymous | September 21, 2014, 3:08 pm
    • Oooh, lots of things with long names. But a list of ingredients is not evidence that vaccines are harmful. I could cook you up some fresh tasty food from fruits and veggies grown my garden, then compile of list of the chemicals that make up those foods. I would be remiss if I did not include the formaldehyde and amygdalin (which turns into cyanide) that are included in many of them:

      http://jameskennedymonash.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/the-ingredients-in-food-phenomenon-continues/

      Here is a better list:
      Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

      If you have evidence that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the disease, then please post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers with that data.

      Posted by Chris | September 21, 2014, 4:58 pm
      • Have you tested the soil quality where you’re growing those fruits and vegetables? You could have runoff water, chemicals, and worse. Science has a strong place in health. If anyone believes we’re less healthy than days when everyone was on a “paleo” diet, then clearly they don’t see the effects of science advancements.

        Posted by kmate | September 23, 2014, 7:20 am
        • It is either rain water or very good city tap water from a mountain lake that is thoroughly tested. This city also does tertiary treatment on its sewage before returning it to the ocean.

          The “paleo” diet included eating acorns, which caused severe tooth decay.

          Posted by Chris | September 23, 2014, 10:17 am
    • The only true statistic for a disease is in fact mortality rates. If I am injecting something so “unavoidably unsafe” it better be to avoid death. Especially with autism having reached a 1:68 point. About 4:1,000,000 died of the measles the year preceding the measles vaccine. And if people think that to take the risk of vaccination is worth it, then that’s fine. Just one question…why do vaccine resellers quote the 1900 mortality rates?
      Of course the incidence will go down, but what used to kill 1:5 had almost completely stopped killing us before the vaccine was invented.
      I just wish the religious bunch would keep their imaginary friends out of this. This is about risk and reward. It’s about statistics. It’s about facts.
      But if you’re ever had a kid get vaccines and then stop talking and regress into autism right away as I have, you know there is something wrong with the vaccines. Is it that they are only tested one at a time, but given in bunches? Is it that they have ingredients we know are harmful? Is it some children have trouble passing the toxins or have allergic reactions to the ingredients? We might never know with so many variables.
      Luckily the CDC has had a whistleblower come forth and tell the world the truth about the CDC research. This incredibly misinformed doctor will soon eat her words as we learn about scientific fraud at the CDC.
      The best part of this all finally coming out for the public is that there are many who still say there is no fraud and will truly go down with the ship to save face. How exactly does one debunk a press release from a current employee at the CDC?

      http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

      Ahh it’s a beautiful day to short Merck stock.

      Posted by David's Daddy | November 3, 2014, 1:26 pm
      • You might want to check SEC regulations before shorting Merck stock and then spreading a lot of BS about vaccines and autism. If by some huge fluke your nonsense went viral, they’d be very suspicious.

        Posted by Andrew Lazarus | November 3, 2014, 3:43 pm
      • DD: “The only true statistic for a disease is in fact mortality rates. If I am injecting something so “unavoidably unsafe” it better be to avoid death.”

        Really? So you don’t care about blindness, deafness, paralysis or permanent brain injury? Please do provide the PubMed indexed studies reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more harm, including death, than the actual disease.

        “Especially with autism having reached a 1:68 point.”

        Please provide the PubMed indexed studies reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes autism, or other disability more than the diseases (congenital rubella… the actual disease… is a known cause of autism).

        “About 4:1,000,000 died of the measles the year preceding the measles vaccine.”

        Why is that a good thing that should not be avoided? Are you invested in some child casket company and are counting on those four hundred deaths per year for some cold cast?

        “How exactly does one debunk a press release from a current employee at the CDC?”

        With this:

        http://retractionwatch.com/2014/10/04/journal-makes-it-official-retracting-controversial-autism-vaccine-paper/

        And by actually reading it, like these quoted:

        I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.

        and…

        I was not, however, aware that he was recording any of our conversations, nor was I given any choice regarding whether my name would be made public or my voice would be put on the Internet.

        The last bit was probably illegal depending of which state Brian Hooker called from.

        Posted by Chris | November 3, 2014, 8:25 pm
        • Chris, everything you say is true, but you left out

          The only true statistic for a disease is in fact mortality rates.

          In which case, autism really isn’t a problem at all! Like, what is the death rate for autism!?

          Posted by Andrew Lazarus | November 3, 2014, 8:48 pm
        • David’s Daddy, the rate of autism among vaccinated and unvaccinated is essentially the same. Vaccines do NOT cause autism -it’s been shown in extensive studies. You claim facts are what is important? Well, that is a fact. You simply ignore that fact in order to find SOMETHING to blame for your son’s autism, but it is NOT a vaccine. I find it a little amusing that your link is to something from a LAW FIRM trying to drum up business with essentially nuisance suits -I would categorize it as “ambulance chasing”.

          Posted by Rick A Derrig | January 12, 2015, 4:31 pm
          • You have no idea what causes autism and either does anyone else. One would think that it would be a huge priority to find out and even anything suspecious would be immediately changed but seems not. None of us including the gov or Dr’s know the whole truth. I would think the scientist from the CDC is our first clue, there was a link made between vaccines and autism but they chose not to include this information. How telling is that? World wide many other studies have found the link but millions of dollars and aggressive reaction keep it burried.

            Posted by Anonymous | January 12, 2015, 10:22 pm
        • Chris, odds are it was legal not to inform it was being recorded (last time I checked, only 17 states required notice to the other party)…however, I’m not clear what applies to interstate communications..

          Posted by Rick A Derrig | January 12, 2015, 4:35 pm
    • I worked with the NHS in a multi disciplinary team and met many doctors and nurses, specialists, GP’s and many other health professionals. All of these professionals did not have their children immunised due to the extreme side effects and the information from various studies including the World Health Organisation that autism is a side effect also members of my family have literally had their babies handed back to them after immunisation and immediately a vast change has happened, and Asperges Autism was diagnosed.
      I am very tired of misinformation coming out of The USA please stop contaminating our social media with this rubbish.

      Posted by Anonymous | January 12, 2015, 5:16 pm
      • “All of these professionals did not have their children immunised …”

        Citation needed.

        “I am very tired of misinformation coming out of The USA please stop contaminating our social media with this rubbish”

        You are quite welcome to correct the misinformation by providing the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support your statements.

        Posted by Chris | January 12, 2015, 6:15 pm
      • You claim to be a NHS worker and you write that load of total rubbish? I don’t think so.

        Posted by J Bankston | January 12, 2015, 9:21 pm
      • You were the typist?

        Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 12, 2015, 9:47 pm
      • Utter nonsense. If it were true, please explain my daughter, natural home birth, never vaxxed for anything and has aspergers. I’ve since taken science-based college courses and am in paramedic school, AND I’m getting all my kids caught up on their shots. Don’t be fooled.

        Posted by Jen | January 13, 2015, 2:19 am
      • “All of these professionals did not have their children immunised….” Just because a “health professional” says something doesn’t mean it’s true. Believe it or not, even doctors can be wrong.

        “Members of my family have literally had their babies handed back to them after immunisation and immediately a vast change has happened”

        I am sorry to hear about your family members who were diagnosed with austism. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody. However, the fact that the change was immediate tells me it wasn’t the vaccine that caused it. This isn’t science fiction where you are injected with a radioactive substance and immediately grow a second head. If vaccines caused autism, it would take time for the effects to be seen. It wouldn’t be immediate.

        What is more likely is that the these children already had autism and, while they were at the doctor’s office to get the vaccine, the doctor noticed their behavior, ran some tests, and made the diagnosis. The “vast change” that happened could have just been the reaction of an autistic baby to getting poked by a needle.

        The fact that multiple members of your family have been diagnosed with autism points to genetics, not vaccines, as being the cause.

        Posted by Troy | January 13, 2015, 3:24 pm
      • I am calling BS on this. I am an NHS doctor and the son of two more. I have had all my vaccines, as have my sister and the children of every single medical worker I have discussed the issue with. Unlike the vast majority of the public, we have the privilege of being trained in critical appraisal of scientific literature and therefore know that all the current evidence is that vaccination results in lower mortality and morbidity. To straight up lie about such a serious topic as paediatric health is so sickening I am struggling to find an insult of sufficient quality to express my disgust.

        I have seen a child die from a vaccine-preventable disease. They had leukaemia and so had not been vaccinated. They would probably be alive had ex-Dr Wakefield not published his lies and reduced the herd immunity effect. Performing unsuccessful CPR on that child is a task, the horror of which I hope you never have to experience.

        Yours sincerely,

        An NHS trainee doctor

        Posted by Anonymous | January 17, 2015, 3:22 am
    • Is it true that there is mercury or heavy metals used in the delivery and or making of the vaccines and if so there is more expensive vaccines that don’t use heavy metals?

      Posted by Kane | January 12, 2015, 5:20 pm
      • ” if so there is more expensive vaccines that don’t use heavy metals?”

        Yes. See this FDA page.

        Posted by Chris | January 12, 2015, 6:16 pm
        • The multi-dose flu shot does contain a preservative called thimerosal, which breaks down into 49% ethylmercury and used to prevent bacterial contamination of the vaccine container. Ethylmercury, as I’ve discussed before, is processed differently by the body than methylmercury, the neurotoxin that can build up in the body and is found in fish. (Keep in mind the difference a letter can make in chemistry: methanol is anti-freeze while ethanol is a Chardonnay.) Ethylmercury is made of larger molecules that cannot enter the brain and exits the body within a week.

          There is no danger in receiving a vaccine with thimerosal – they’re given all over the world and it’s been extensively studied, even for cumulative effects on children over several years. And, keep in mind, if you’re just one of those paranoid types, you can easily request and get a flu shot without the preservative.

          Posted by Cory | January 14, 2015, 6:05 pm
          • “And, keep in mind, if you’re just one of those paranoid types,”

            Fortunately, I am not. I just get the regular flu shot. Also I like eating salmon and tuna.

            Posted by Chris | January 14, 2015, 8:34 pm
    • I’m sorry but it’s despicable to me that you spent all those years in college to become a “scientist” to come out and lie to the masses and tell parents that vaccines are safe and people need to keep getting their children vaccinated. Seems to me like your getting paid to kill children and lie to their parents and make them believe it’s safe. Can you reference where you got your information from because I have read countless articles that prove the contrary. Heavy metals alone not even talking about all the other harmful chemicals and what have you that are in the vaccine, cause a laundry list of health problems and directly kill the pineal gland and make our children stupid. The fact that you had the nerve to say they don’t cause autism either is just alarming. Seems to me like your just another person of “respect” pushing for the NWO and killing of society as we know it.

      Posted by Anonymous | January 13, 2015, 10:05 am
    • But how do we stop vaccines from causing autism?

      Posted by Anonymous | January 13, 2015, 8:57 pm
    • Thank you, thank you!
      This is one of the best articles about the vaccination issue I have read. Your links are very helpful. They cover all the objections I have heard from anti-vaccination friends and patients. As a PA in Family Practice, I deal with this issue regularly. One of my little patients was seriously ill from non-vaccination (he was not my patient before the incident, only after- and even now I can barely get his mom to bring him in for vaccinations). If it were up to me, I would refuse to have non-vaccinated kids in my practice and waiting room. But I don’t have control.
      Unfortunately, all the greatest data in the world will not convince some people- they don’t care about data and truth, only their desire to be “natural” and “in control” of their children’s health. Well, that is irresponsible parenting and I am tired of pussy-footing around that.
      Thank you again for this excellent post! I will send it to people who are even the tiniest bit open to truth and reality and honor.
      Mary

      Posted by MaryM | January 14, 2015, 1:11 pm
    • My grandad was killed by a flu vaccine. He contracted GBS from it and died from complications. The doctors – wanting to cover their asses – did not record the proper cause of his death and instead put it down to a heart-attack. It is not uncommon for vaccine related deaths to go unreported as such because it is not good for the drug companies and enables them to fiddle the statistics. Death rates from illnesses are always given based on global statistics. If you live in a first world country and are not immune compromised, you have zero chance of dying from the flu, measles or chicken pox. This is based on the fact that nobody in this category has died in the last 20 years.

      Posted by whatdoctor | January 15, 2015, 3:23 am
      • Whatdoctor,
        “If you live in a first world country and are not immune compromised, you have zero chance of dying from the flu, measles or chicken pox. This is based on the fact that nobody in this category has died in the last 20 years.”

        I’m interested in where you got that information.

        But, pretending you are right about those numbers, what should we do with the immune compromised in the USA?
        The babies (who don’t yet have a fully functioning immune system), those on chemotherapy or immune suppressants, those with HIV, should the rest of us just say, “Oh, well, you’re on your own. I’m not going to take even the slightest chance, 1 in a million, of hurting myself in order to help you.”

        Posted by gewisn | January 15, 2015, 8:57 am
      • Wittdoctor – zero chance of dying from the flu if a person with a healthy immune system lives in a 1st world country? What planet do you live on? Unfortunately, all too many adults and children with good immune systems die from the flu each year – in this country and other 1st world countries around the globe.

        Posted by J Bankston | January 15, 2015, 10:16 am
      • “If you live in a first world country and are not immune compromised, you have zero chance of dying from the flu, measles or chicken pox. This is based on the fact that nobody in this category has died in the last 20 years.”

        Tell that to these families: Vaccine Preventable Disease – The Forgotten Story

        By the way, the CDC Weekly U.S. Influenza Surveillance Report shows that twenty six children have died from influenza so far this season, http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/ . It only covers the USA, not the world. You need to support your claims with some actual data.

        Posted by Chris | January 15, 2015, 11:09 am
    • did you also fall for this?

      Posted by Anonymous | January 15, 2015, 11:10 am
  2. Don’t question Big Pharma or Big Agriculture. Don’t question the government. Don’t question societal norms. Don’t question science. Don’t question whats in the vaccines. Don’t question why cancer and autism are exploding at an alarming rate from generation to generation. Don’t question why 1 in 3 will have diabetes by 2025. Don’t question why with all the modern advancement in medical technology there are no cures for cancer or STD’s and other diseases. Give up your freedoms, give up your liberties, and have no tolerance for anyone who asks questions. Like sheep led to the slaughter…

    Posted by Anonymous | September 21, 2014, 3:52 pm
    • Ever considered the possibility 1 in 3 people will have diabetes because of their unhealthy food pattern, with lots of soda’s/coca cola containing huge amounts of sugar, overburdening their pancreases?

      Posted by pdw | September 22, 2014, 1:12 pm
    • Anonymous, seriously? Science is continually questioned. And continually, the questioning of the science shows that vaccines DON’T. CAUSE. AUTISM.

      And I love this little snippet: “Don’t question why with all the modern advancement in medical technology there are no cures for cancer or STD’s and other diseases.” You couldn’t be more factually wrong about that statement if you tried. There are cures and treatments for various different types of cancers, STDs and other diseases. In fact, the “cure” for many of the most deadly diseases are the VACCINES that you absurdly claim are unsafe or maliciously harmful.

      Posted by swmace | September 22, 2014, 1:53 pm
    • Don’t question the conspiracy theorists, because you’ll be led away from interventions that work.
      And worse, you’ll be called a “sheeple!”

      Of course you’re allowed and encouraged to ask questions, but we expect those questioning the known science to either understand the answer or utilize someone who does (and does not have a financial interest in selling you an alternative with NO science to back it up) to help you understand it. Someone like, maybe, Jennifer Raff.

      Posted by gewisn | September 22, 2014, 6:10 pm
    • The sleeple are everywhere -_-

      Posted by Penthesilea Greenleaf | October 4, 2014, 1:31 pm
      • Yes you are quite abundant. Ignorant, mindless sheeple that would rather believe what some nobody tells you, instead of reviewing the scientific facts that are available for you to read. Maybe it’s all just too complicated for you, i apologize.

        Posted by Anonymous | October 12, 2014, 3:20 pm
        • How dare you!! Scientific facts?? Have you had a child who received seven vaccinations then had them descend into autism immediately following the shots? Sometimes we don’t need “facts”. We only need to live it to see the proof in front of us!

          Posted by Christine | January 13, 2015, 3:31 pm
          • “Sometimes we don’t need “facts”.

            Like the MMR never containing thimerosal even when it was first introduced in the USA in 1971?

            Actually, I have a child who had seizures as a toddler from a disease before its vaccine existed, it got him a trip to the hospital. Also he needed ten years of speech therapy to learn to speak, and yet his speech is still so impacted he can’t get a job.

            So I am kind of biased towards science and not random anecdotes on the internet (including my own). So I would appreciate it if you could provide me the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the disease.

            If you say MMR, then please provide the verifiable documentation that dated before 1990 that autism increased in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s coincident to its use (it was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination Program). Also, show that letting rubella return would mean fewer kids with autism, even though congenital rubella syndrome is one known cause of autism, see Congenital rubella syndrome and autism spectrum disorder prevented by rubella vaccination – United States, 2001-2010. And that letting mumps return to everyone, would not mean that deafness will increase because that is one side effect of the disease, which was noticed in Japan after they made mumps vaccination voluntary:
            Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5. doi: 10.1097/INF.0b013e31818a8ca8.
            An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.

            Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 4:15 pm
            • When have I ever said not to vaccinate? If you read my posts you will see I’m not against them, I just think fewer should be given per visit. I think too many at once can be harmful. And don’t ask me to prove it with a link to a site or state that it’s a fact. It’s simply my opinion from life. I’m sorry to hear of your son. Best of luck to him.

              Posted by Christine | January 13, 2015, 6:41 pm
              • “If you read my posts you will see I’m not against them, I just think fewer should be given per visit.”.

                Often followed by words to the effect “what if they prove that vaccines cause autism”, etc… and blatant declaration you don’t need facts.

                I did not mention anything about your personal vaccination history, because that is just an anecdote and opinion. I am asking you to provide evidence for your claims. You may not want facts, but I do. Your opinion is useless without any form of evidence.

                Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 6:58 pm
              • “I just think fewer should be given per visit. ”

                Pertinent study: Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism

                Having gone through several diseases like mumps, measles, etc in childhood, and seen my kids suffer from some like chicken pox, it seems (and this is just an opinion) that getting the disease has a greater impact on the body than getting lots of vaccines at once.

                Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 7:04 pm
              • Christine,
                It is my (equally unqualified) opinion from life that you should definitely use only leaded diesel fuel in your car.

                When you understand why you are going to ignore my opinion about your car, you’ll understand the value of yours in deciding anything to do with healthcare.

                Posted by cleverlyconfused | January 14, 2015, 12:46 am
                • Um, okay. I’m clearly confused. What does diesel fuel have to do with vaccination schedules?

                  Posted by Christine | January 14, 2015, 10:50 pm
                  • It’s something of an analogy. Using leaded and/or diesel fuel in your car is a terrible idea; unless you drive a fairly unusual model of car, it would ruin your engine.

                    The idea is that it’s foolish to listen to someone’s uneducated “opinion from life,” when the experts and knowledgeable people virtually all say that opinion is misguided and potentially harmful.

                    In other words, your mechanic would say, “Put regular gasoline in your car! Diesel fuel will destroy the engine.” Your doctor would say, “Get vaccinated! They work, and they’re safe. There isn’t a shred of serious evidence that they cause autism, and overwhelming evidence that they don’t.”

                    It’s silly to ignore the mechanic and put whatever feels right in your car–the actual facts matter. The same applies to vaccines.

                    (It’s a great analogy, cleverlyconfused.)

                    Posted by Colin | January 14, 2015, 11:31 pm
                    • Not to burst your bubble, but my doctor did indeed admit she feels taking much fewer vaccines at a more spaced out amount of time but be just fine for my second son. She feels too many are given at a time. And don’t ask me to say her name, I won’t do it. The point is, I’m doing what “feels right” by my doctor.

                      Posted by Christine | January 15, 2015, 1:35 pm
                  • When you understand why you are going to ignore my opinion about your car, you’ll understand the value of yours in deciding anything to do with healthcare.

                    Posted by cleverlyconfused | January 15, 2015, 12:23 am
                    • Once again, I’m only following my doctors advice. Gee, I didn’t realize being a family physician held such a crummy status. Yikes, I will have to tell her how stupid and worthless her opinion is…she will be upset that 30 years of being a doctor means nothing to Colin, Chris and cleverly confused!

                      Posted by Christine | January 15, 2015, 1:51 pm
                    • Christine, you’re certainly welcome.
                      But please do ask your doctor for the evidence to back up that opinion.
                      We would all like to know.

                      If your doctor’s opinion is based on the same evidence as yours, do not ever let her fill up your gas tank.

                      Posted by cleverlyconfused | January 15, 2015, 5:18 pm
                    • She is just trying to comply with your wishes and make sure your children are at least partially protected. That is not terribly unusual. Unfortunately, it does not mean she is correct, nor does it prove there is actual evidence behind that modified schedule. Though it is up to you to actually get your children to the doctor’s office more often, something that does often become more difficult when there is more than one child in the household.

                      Some other very vocal pediatricians who do the same as your doctor have come under serious criticism from other pediatricians:
                      Dr. Jay Gordon: Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing (Dr. Gordon has shown up in the comments of that blog about the Disneyland measles outbreak, I suggest you visit that thread)
                      and
                      Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears

                      Posted by Chris | January 15, 2015, 2:15 pm
          • “Sometimes we don’t need “facts”.”

            You always need facts. Especially when they seem to contradict what you believe.

            Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 6:54 pm
            • Alright, prove to me it’s not healthier for the child to do a couple at a time instead of 6 or 7. Prove it with a fact.

              Posted by Christine | January 14, 2015, 10:48 pm
              • You are asking an anonymous commenter on a blog to prove it to you in order to refute something you chose to believe with no facts? That is not a recipe for actually making an evidence-based decision. Please talk to a doctor, scientist, or other legitimate expert.

                Posted by Colin | January 14, 2015, 11:26 pm
              • Christine,
                “Alright, prove to me it’s not healthier for the child to do a couple at a time instead of 6 or 7. Prove it with a fact.”

                Each time someone is jabbed with a needle, there is an infinitesimally small chance that the needle will damage a nerve or other tissue, that the injection site will become infected, or that some other accident with the needle will occur to injure the child or someone else.
                Additionally, when the vaccines are spread out without specific reason, a full series requires more visits, and every extra visit required increases the chances that A) the parent will somehow miss the appt or B) the child will get sick while awaiting the additional injection.

                So, based on these simple truths, there are discernable disadvantages from spreading out the vaccinations.
                Those disadvantages are precisely why the combination vaccines are attempted.
                The recommended schedules are tested before they are widely disseminated.

                Therefore, it is clearly a bad idea to spread out the vaccinations unless there is some serious reason to do so.

                Questions?
                Seriously, I’d be happy to see questions about this.
                There are a number of really smart people on this thread and honest, polite questions generally get respectful, honest answers.

                Posted by gewisn | January 15, 2015, 12:21 am
                • I don’t mean to be rude, but those really weren’t good reasons.

                  Posted by Christine | January 15, 2015, 2:33 pm
                  • Please watch this video. Dr. David Atkins global vaccine agenda-mercury and autism 1-10 series. I know it will never change your minds. Extreme pro vaxers are just as close minded and doubtful as extreme anti vaxers and its a shame for both sides. I don’t think there is ANY proof anyone could ever show you (I fear even scientists and doctors) that would make you pause and think, hmm..maybe there is a link. Not just to autism, but any serious side effects. have seen that some of you have been discussing this subject for a very long time. It’s a shame really, because your not even in it to learn anything. All you do is push. And of course ask for facts. There was a very intelligent lady (I forgot her name. She was an acupuncturist..I remember this because of few of you were rough on her for that) who had alot of interesting things to say, even gave you links to prove her points, and you didn’t even give her an inch. After what I have been through with my son, I’m still capable of having an open mind with vaccines when I have every right to be doubtful, and after wasting a few days of my life on this subject, debating with brick walls, I’m done. Obviously there is nothing to discuss if one side refuses to expand their mind, and pay attention to an idea that isn’t normal to them. Such a shame.

                    Posted by Christine | January 15, 2015, 3:04 pm
                  • Christine,
                    “Those really weren’t good reasons”

                    I don’t know about CleverlyConfused, but I don’t think that wasn’t rude at all. It was direct, and I appreciate that. Actually, is like to point out that you have avoided rudeness or name-calling (unless I’m forgetting a post in which you were rude).

                    In light of the fact that there are zero reasons to spread them out (at least zero reasons based on any facts), how good does a reason to do then together have to be?

                    I think it was worth pointing out that there are reasons to do them together that don’t require any advanced medical or statistical education.

                    But if you have reasons to spread them out that are based on something other than a feeling, we’re be happy to read them.

                    BTW, Christine, are there any actual questions you have about specific vaccines or the current recommended schedule that we could answer for you?
                    Outside of the larger debate, are there any specifics you’re wondered about that maybe someone on here could clear up for you?
                    Sometimes I hear people ask things they’ve somehow always needed afraid to ask, like, “why does it have to be needles instead of a pill or just put all the vaccines on the sugar cube like I remember from when I was a kid?” Or “why can’t they put them all into a single shot?”
                    I realize you are better read than the people who asked those, but you get my point. I always worry that the Moe straightforward questions are not asked in this sort of discussion.

                    Posted by gewisn | January 15, 2015, 5:38 pm
  3. We are over populating this planet… and destroying the natural balance to nature so trying to save everyone and prolonging our lives is completly pointless if we dont even keep ourselves in check and take responsibility of ourselves and our race

    Posted by Anonymous | September 21, 2014, 3:57 pm
  4. I’ve always wondered; how does an unvaccinated child put vaccinated children at risk?

    Posted by kirsty | September 21, 2014, 9:28 pm
    • Well, kirsty, how would you protect an infant under the age of one year from measles? Do tell us, since that is before they are old enough for the vaccine.

      Plus read this comment from Sally:

      Please get your children vaccinated my son was born with SCIDS(google it) .

      Show you care about children, make sure they do not have to suffer from something that is preventable.

      Posted by Chris | September 21, 2014, 10:13 pm
    • kirsty, how would you protect an infant from measles? They are too young to get the MMR vaccine, and with each outbreak there seems to be an infant who gets measles. Also an infant is very vulnerable to pertussis and Hib, but do not have full protection until they are at least nine months old since multiple vaccines are needed to build immunity.

      Also, how do you protect a child or adult who has an immune disorder like SCIDS or is going through cancer treatment? Do you care if your child infects someone else who has medical issues just because of bad luck?

      Posted by Chris | September 21, 2014, 10:30 pm
      • well, what happens when you give the pertussis vaccine to your child and she gets pertussis from the vaccine? I personally feel that one should not vaccinate. I have six children and two had there first vaccines but none after that. The last four had no vaccines, rarely get ill and are extremely healthy. My second child got pertussis right after she received the vaccine, as pertussis was in the vaccine.
        At 3 I had Rubella, I was not vaccinated for it. I now have a natural immunity and all six kids have it also.

        Posted by Heidi | September 21, 2014, 11:10 pm
        • You have no scientific proof that any of your claims are valid. Your experience could be the result of your specific circumstances or even blind luck.

          Posted by Anonymous | September 22, 2014, 8:21 am
        • The vaccine against whooping cough does NOT contain live Bordatella pertussis bacteria but just a piece of the killed bacteria which your body “sees” as a foreign substance, and thus responds by making antibodies. The next time it “sees” this protein sequence, it will be already primed to produce those antibodies which will attack the live bacteria which have entered your body. You CANNOT get whooping cough from the vacccine. Your child caught whooping cough from someone else who had it, at a time when your child’s body had not been primed to react quickly to the exposure. And I’m just curious as to how you know that all six of your children are immune to Rubella. Did you have them all get blood tests to check their immune status to Rubella? If you are thinking that they are immune because you are, you are wrong. They probably had a short lived immunity right after birth from your antibodies having been transfered to them. But after the first year of life, those antibodies will have died out, and having been host to them in no way teaches their immune system to make those same antibodies on their own. They would only be immune IF they either had the disease or had the vaccine.

          Posted by Helen Bitaxis | September 22, 2014, 9:43 am
        • Why do you think your unvaccinated children have immunity to rubella? Looking forward to your deaf, retarded grandchildren? That’s rather weird.

          Posted by Andrew Lazarus | September 22, 2014, 10:29 am
        • “The last four had no vaccines, rarely get ill and are extremely healthy.”

          Please thank your responsible neighbors who vaccinate. They are protecting your children by bolstering your community’s immunity to many diseases.

          “My second child got pertussis right after she received the vaccine, as pertussis was in the vaccine.”

          But it is not perfect. Your child was probably exposed to another child who was contagious with pertussis before she got the vaccine. As Helen says, you can’t get pertussis from the DTaP. Because of parents like you, some diseases like measles, mumps and pertussis are actively circulating.

          Posted by Chris | September 22, 2014, 11:36 am
        • Sorry Heidi, you are mistaken. Pertussis is not a live vaccine and cannot transmit pertussis following vaccination.

          Your children do not have protection against rubella. You are depending on others in the community to vaccinate their children against measles, mumps and rubella. You are a free rider.

          Posted by lilady | September 22, 2014, 6:32 pm
        • I have had Rubella as a child & I have been fully immunised for it 4 times (3 times as an adult). My body will not carry/hold on to the immunity/vaccine. I can be infected with it…I can carry it & I can infect others. Having had the disease, does not guarantee immunity. Vaccination does not guarantee immunity – of the individual. But it is not essentially designed for the individual, but for the masses. To reduce mass outbreaks. There are always going to be individuals that react to a vaccine, or medicine. I am one of these people. But I am also aware due to my immune issues, that if I become ill, I have to isolate myself, due to the potential of infecting others. I also have to be aware of others who maybe symptomatic, even of the common cold, because of how ill I can become if infected. Vaccinating is not just about protecting the individual….but the community at large. Also in protecting the minority that can’t be immunised due to immune issues/allergies, or those who cannot hold onto the immunisation. In saying that, it does not lessen the pain & guilt a parent would feel if their child had a severe reaction to any vaccine/medicine. My heart goes out to these families.

          Posted by Cayt | January 12, 2015, 7:11 pm
      • Breastfeeding, whereupon they get the mother’s immunities without toxic vaccination cocktails. But most won’t and would rather give their child another unhealthy cocktail – that of formula.

        Posted by Penthesilea Greenleaf | October 4, 2014, 1:34 pm
        • I needed a tetanus booster a few years ago, and my then 83-y.o. mother said I was out of luck on the breastfeeding. You are typical of the Look At Me and My Non-toxic Breast Milk fools: your breast milk is contaminated by the environment around you, including the toxins. More on this topic in a recent book: http://thenewdaughter.com/on-immunity-by-eula-biss/

          Posted by Andrew Lazarus | October 4, 2014, 2:13 pm
        • Penthesilea Greenleaf,
          No, most do breastfeed. “In 2011, 79% of newborn infants started to breastfeed.” (http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/pdf/2014breastfeedingreportcard.pdf).

          And what should the infants do when breastfeeding stops but the infant is not yet making antibodies to some of the most contagious and potentially harmful diseases?
          Did you think breastfed children can’t get measles, mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox, etc.?
          Did you think the antibodies from the mother last for the infant’s life?
          Did you think all the mother’s antibodies (IgG, IgA, IgE) are all abundant in breastmilk?

          Honestly, I’m interested. Please explain your understanding of the immune system.
          I promise not to jump down your throat for any misconceptions. And there’s a very good chance I’ll learn something from others on this thread who know more about immunity than me.

          Posted by Notnearlyanonymous | October 4, 2014, 2:18 pm
        • Can you please provide some evidence for that? My youngest was only six months old when she got chicken pox, and she was fully breastfed. So if breast milk is so magical how come I had a baby covered in pox (some very close to her eyes) who screamed most of the night because of the itching.

          Posted by Chris | October 4, 2014, 4:19 pm
          • Chris, do you mean to tell me your little babe wasn’t vaccinated right out of the womb? lol Truly, colostrum is the immune system builder, but guess it also depends on what Mom ate, drank and was exposed to. All these things count. Quit asking silly questions…always evidence you people ask for. Well, we want evidence that vaccines work and don’t kill or maim children. That I have personally seen, but you don’t seem to want to tell the truth here and seem to prefer lies over truth. People could show you tons of evidence but you always poo poo it and say it’s fake. Well, guess what, all your copied and pasted crap is fake, all created by the Big Pharma. I just read an article of a small few weeks old baby dying after she was jabbed with many vaccines pretty much out of the womb. They had a picture of before and after and the after was a different picture with the left side of her face drooping. Anyway, she died, so much for your fake scientific studies.

            Posted by Anonymous | October 4, 2014, 7:31 pm
            • I’m sorry, in what universe is the varicella vaccine given before a child is a year old?

              Also, this was in 1994, a year before the varicella vaccine was available. Does your universe also include time travel?

              “Well, guess what, all your copied and pasted crap is fake, all created by the Big Pharma.”

              Dear brave Anonymous, please tell me exactly what website I copied and pasted from.

              “I just read an article of a small few weeks old baby dying after she was jabbed with many vaccines pretty much out of the womb”

              And yet you did not provide a link to this very important news! Perhaps you need some help determining what is dreck and what is not dreck on the internet. Because you seem to have issues figuring out the difference between fantasy and reality.

              By the way my oldest child had seizures as a two day old newborn, and was in an infant care center until he was a week old. Can you please tell me what vaccine did that in 1988? Really, tell me what vaccine was given to babies as newborns in 1988. I really want to know.

              Then tell me how breastfeeding would have prevented those seizures, because that was all the kid had until he ended up in the Intermediate Infant Care Unit. Your answer could be as entertaining as the guy who claimed it was because of cow milk. Which the newborn never had.before the seizure.

              Posted by Chris | October 4, 2014, 10:13 pm
            • “Quit asking silly questions…always evidence you people ask for”

              You are hilarious. You get to make stuff up like the vaccines can be given just after birth, and yet you think it is silly to ask for evidence.
              .
              “Well, we want evidence that vaccines work and don’t kill or maim children.”

              Here, knock yourself out, this has only been posted a few times, perhaps this time it will actually be clicked on and read:
              Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

              Also, if you don’t think vaccines work, then please explain why incidence of measles dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA, as noted with the following census data. Please do not mention deaths (mortality), any other decade nor any other country.
              From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
              Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
              1912 . . . 310.0
              1920 . . . 480.5
              1925 . . . 194.3
              1930 . . . 340.8
              1935 . . . 584.6
              1940 . . . 220.7
              1945 . . . 110.2
              1950 . . . 210.1
              1955 . . . 337.9
              1960 . . . 245.4
              1965 . . . 135.1
              1970 . . . . 23.2
              1975 . . . . 11.3
              1980 . . . . . 5.9
              1985 . . . . . 1.2
              1990 . . . . .11.2
              1991 . . . . . .3.8
              1992 . . . . . .0.9
              1993 . . . . . .0.1
              1994 . . . . . .0.4
              1995 . . . . . .0.1
              1996 . . . . . .0.2
              1997 . . . . . . 0.1

              Posted by Chris | October 5, 2014, 10:26 am
              • God hates vaccines.

                We are told seven times in Genesis that creation was made “after its kind.” The word “kind” could be translated DNA, as kind refers to species. This is the mark of God on His creation. When profligate man intentionally destroys that mark and substitutes his own mark, that is the epitome of evil. Vaccines, containing DNA of monkeys, dogs, bacteria, and other creatures including mankind (aborted human fetal cells are components of several vaccines), are abominable for three specific reasons.

                First, they obscure the DNA of mankind. There are natural barriers to prevent the crossing of the species. That is why diseases don’t usually cross over to man from animals unless they have been manipulated in a lab. The fallen angels (demons) mated with human women and bred the Nephilim in an attempt to purposely destroy mankind in order that the Messiah could not be born into the human race. Thus, the Flood came to save man and the Messianic bloodline by wiping out the corrupted DNA; are we not told that Noah was “perfect in his GENErations”?

                Second, vaccines are injected into the blood. “The life is in the blood.” Yes, they are intramuscular but that goes directly into the blood. Dr. Tim O’Shea documents that when the administration of vaccines was switched to hypodermics as compared to simple lancets that merely scraped the skin, the rate of vaccine death skyrocketed. We are commanded not to eat or drink the blood, which is a rebellious practice by those who do not obey God. If eating of blood is forbidden, how much moreso is injecting it into the very life of mankind?

                Third, we are created with a most marvelous immune system that is intended to protect us against disease. Vaccines defy that divine system. Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely. This is similar to what happens when a vaccine is injected into the body versus a natural immune response to pathogens.

                Vaccines, in violation of these eternal commands and divine design, are therefore damned.

                The “power” of vaccines is in “accord with the activity of Satan” and a “false wonder.” No true immunity is conferred. Immunization via vaccines is a lie. A lie is deception. Deception is not for God’s people. He desires and commands us to know the truth. However, as God Himself is a warrior who fights for His people when they obey but fights against them when they disobey (the entirety of the Old Testament documents this), He uses deception as a strategy of warfare. This is a hard truth, but if we embrace what God has forbidden, we are damned:

                “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

                So here’s one for you Chris. I don’t believe your copy and pasted garbage from the big Pharma, for they are not of God and I am all for God, so I have wisdom. There has been no decline of disease anywhere, kids are still getting measles and all the other diseases, even ones who had the vaccines. Vaccines, as I said, change the DNA and that is not of God because he created US and our DNA. People need to actually use their own brains instead of allowing “man” to program. I swear you all have chips in your brains being programmed on a daily basis. You are believing all that you are told and yet simply put, that’s still not evidence. Evidence is seeing it with your own eyes, such as I have with the children who were vaccinated, who either died or were maimed or just sickly beings their entire lives. Proof is in the pudding, as they say, not lies from the Big Pharma. I actually feel sorry for people who are so brain washed they don’t even know how to use their brains anymore. So, say what you want, call me names, tell me I am stupid but the question here is, how much do you really think you know when you really know nothing at all. No proof, just copied and paste words from liars. Wow, I should be dead I guess, since the only vaccines I had in my life were just a couple, when I was a young tot with no voice or the ability to say NO, and I don’t take drugs, never had a flu shot, no pneumonia shot, nothing, and I don’t get sick…go figure! lol

                Posted by Anonymous | October 5, 2014, 10:40 am
                • “God hates vaccines.”

                  Which one? And what evidence do you have that this particular deity made measles incidence drop 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970?

                  “We are told seven times in Genesis that creation was made “after its kind.””

                  So we are believe multiple translated stories written a few thousand years ago by unknown persons instead of modern science?

                  “The fallen angels (demons) mated with human women and bred the Nephilim in an attempt to purposely destroy mankind in order that the Messiah could not be born into the human race”

                  You might want to get help with your inability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

                  “Second, vaccines are injected into the blood”

                  Factually untrue. This statement is a big clue that you do not have a clue. Vaccines are not given intravenously. They are given by a needle into the muscle or just under the skin, also in a spray through the nose and as a liquid taken in the mouth. There was a intravenous malaria vaccine that was developed, but that is a very difficult way to administer in the targeted areas.

                  “Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely.”

                  Also factually untrue. It is a very bad idea to get medical advice from fairy tales.

                  “Dr. Tim O’Shea” is a chiropractor, he is not a real medical doctor and also does not have a clue. Generally it is a bad idea to get medical information outside of lower back pain from chiropractors.

                  “I don’t believe your copy and pasted garbage from the big Pharma,”

                  Again, I ask; tell me where I copy and pasted from? Did you actually try to Google my words? Where would “Big Pharma” post about my fully breastfed six month old getting chicken pox? Since when is the US Census Bureau part of “Big Pharma”?

                  “Wow, I should be dead I guess, since the only vaccines I had in my life were just a couple, when I was a young tot with no voice or the ability to say NO, and I don’t take drugs, never had a flu shot, no pneumonia shot, nothing, and I don’t get sick…go figure! lol”

                  Actually you are both lucky and are fortunate to live where most people are vaccinated, there are functioning sewers and clean water.

                  I would never call you stupid, but I would question your education. Your last sentence indicates that you have never taken a course in statistics, and the rest of your paragraphs show you have never taken any science or history classes past elementary school. If you have an open mind you could work on those deficits by taking classes at a local community college. But it is quite clear that you have made sure no new information gets inside your head.

                  Posted by Chris | October 5, 2014, 11:39 am
                • Anonymous,
                  Please point to any one of the citations from http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
                  and tell us what your evidence is that the citation you chose is “fake.”

                  Just one.

                  …..waiting…….

                  …still waiting…..

                  This could take a while.

                  In the time this takes, how many children with “the most awesome immune system” will suffer, and maybe die, from vaccine-preventable diseases?

                  Posted by Notnearlyanonymous | October 5, 2014, 12:04 pm
                • “God hates vaccines.”

                  Why does your god save so many who are vaccinated over those who are not?
                  Why does your god allow researchers to keep making and improving vaccines?
                  Why does your god not strike down anyone who makes, promotes, uses vaccines?

                  Either he doesn’t hate vaccines, or he’s a bit of a weenie, don’t you think?

                  Posted by confusedbylogic | October 5, 2014, 12:18 pm
                • You’re just an internet troll – you must be because no sane person would truly believe the utter nonsense you have posted – or expect other rational beings to believe these nonsensical rantings.

                  Posted by J Bankston | October 5, 2014, 8:24 pm
                  • LOL J. Bankston, I think YOU all are the trolls and paid Pharma shills. You think it’s utter nonsense because I bet you are also an ATHEIST and not of God and you will see in the end who is right, and it’s none of you. I am not trying to convince anyone not to vaccinate, I am only stating my own opinion. I have been on BOTH sides, I will say once again, and worked in the Medical Field at one time. Guess how many people I saw die from drugs and Doctor’s who, btw, are only practicing on us like guinea pigs? So, I have been on both sides and made a decision that has not only saved my life but I have shown others how to clean up cancer and many other things without the Medical field and their little magic pills and vaccines. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. I have nothing left to say now, waste of time when people don’t use wisdom and give these things some actual thought. There are always two sides, and I am on the one that doesn’t rake in the money and doesn’t kill people. Man, I feel so very sorry for people who only know one way.

                    Posted by Anonymous | October 5, 2014, 8:59 pm
                    • Now those are some claims that require evidence. Please provide the medical charts.

                      Posted by notsoanonymous | October 5, 2014, 9:24 pm
                    • And I cured you of fantasy.

                      Oops, there’s no evidence for that either.

                      Posted by confusedbylogic | October 5, 2014, 9:57 pm
                    • Again, which “God”? Surely not the one worshiped by the Sisters of Saint Francis of St. Marys Hospital where my son got open heart surgery. They really want both the employees and patients to be fully vaccinated. Are you going to accuse those nuns of being atheists?

                      Obviously because their God believes in giving humans the ability to reason and figure out how to use science to save people.

                      So, again I ask: how did your particular deity cause measles incidence in the USA to drop 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Please provide real verifiable evidence as “blatant assertion” is not acceptable.

                      (By the way, folks: Rochester, MN is a very weird place. It is literally in the middle of nowhere being a ninety minute shuttle ride from the Twin Cities airport. But it is a town surrounding a world class medical center, with shuttles transporting patients between the main down medical center to the large hospital. It has its own travel agency which consists of two over worked women in a small windowless office on a long confusing curvy hallway.)

                      Posted by Chris | October 5, 2014, 10:55 pm
                    • Goodbye and good riddance to bad rubbish from someone still in the health care field who has seen firsthand the devastating effects resulting from not properly vaccinating kids.

                      Posted by J Bankston | October 5, 2014, 11:36 pm
                    • Why do you have nothing left to say? You have not responded to notnearlyanonymous’ question yet, so I ask you as well:

                      Please point to any one of the citations from http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
                      and tell us what your evidence is that the citation you chose is “fake.”

                      If you don’t respond again, we will know that’s because you can’t and it will prove us right and you wrong.

                      Posted by Petra | October 6, 2014, 5:41 am
                • Tell them the truth like it is Chris, you are one critical thinker, unlike most of the sheeple on this page!!! Let them continue to believe big pharma’s lies. Just ask yourselves sheeple who has the most to gain from vaccines? BIG PHARMA THAT’S WHO!
                  Follow the money and the lies!

                  Posted by Bonnie Jean Tucker | October 6, 2014, 3:59 am
                  • Really? Especially with the prices that certain governmental agencies negotiate with pharmaceutical companies for vaccines? Go find a legitimate pricing issue to gripe about – like the cost of recent cancer fighting drugs.

                    Posted by J Bankston | October 6, 2014, 10:44 am
                    • Who needs the Medical field J. Bankston? I had a very aggressive cancer called Inflammatory Breast Cancer, and I had no chemo or radiation or drugs and came through it naturally. If people will pull their heads out of the sand, they will see there is a whole other side. Doctor’s get 350,000 bucks per chemo treatment…it’s all a money game and they don’t cure the cancer, they kill off what might be there, but the problem is INSIDE the body and it will be back eventually if you don’t make some changes.

                      Posted by Anonymous | October 6, 2014, 1:29 pm
                    • Please provide the evidence that any doctor has received $350,000 for an individual chemotherapy treatment, along with the contact info for the doctor. I’d love to call him/her out on it.

                      Posted by gewisn | October 6, 2014, 2:42 pm
                    • If you think I’d reveal any Dr’s name to you that I personally know, you are more delusional than I thought. lol I don’t bother with you liars anymore because you tell us to present evidence and then call us liars when we do, or discredit whoever said or wrote whatever. Trust me, they don’t pump that poison into people for mere pennies. I don’t know what planet you are on, but notice you say nothing about the fact that I and many, many others have beat cancer with natural methods. That’s because you know it can be done, but hush, don’t let the sheeple know because then the big pharma would be out of tons of money and most likely not exist. I personally know Doctor’s who tell me that they all lie and they know the truth, but never would I reveal their names because duh, then they’d be in trouble. I don’t do people that way, I protect them because they do care and actually don’t follow all the big Pharma tells them to.

                      Posted by Anonymous | October 6, 2014, 3:47 pm
                    • “They’d be in trouble,” with whom? There is no law that say doctors must lie to patients. There are laws saying they cannot do so, and if caught can be sued, fined, jailed – and if you look at the public notices produced by every state medical board you can read who those doctors are.
                      But you refuse to give up the name of a single doctor that you state makes >$340k per chemo treatment. Why would you refuse to give up the name of someone you are accusing of wrong-doing? I really don’t get that. Why would you accuse someone of being exactly the sort you are crusading against, but refuse to name him/her?

                      What do you think is the conclusion that anyone, even someone in your own camp, would draw from the fact that you refuse to name even one person doing the things you say they are doing wrong?

                      Posted by gewsin | October 6, 2014, 8:35 pm
                    • Ya just keep talking out your butt. Any Doctor who goes against the Medical field, yes, they will be in trouble. And I am not stupid enough to name them, You wanna know, research it your damn self. I don’t get my info from you, but have been researching both sides for 18 years. Pharma is the liar,. they program and rule Doctor’s and nothing you say will make me feel any different about my beliefs so give up, will ya? I am merely saying there are always two sides to every story and I am not buying yours and don’t give a hoot if you believe what I am saying either. I am healthy without your drugs and without any Doctor. If I break a bone, I might need an x-ray and cast and then I am the hell out of there.

                      Posted by Anonymous | October 6, 2014, 9:13 pm
                    • “Nothing you can say will make me feel any different about my beliefs.”

                      Suppose in your research you came across information that did make you change your mind. Who would that info be from? What sort of source would you trust? What sort of information might you find convincing?

                      Or are you saying that your mind is closed to any possibility of change, and no amount of information from any source could ever possibly change your mind in the least?
                      ‘Cause that would be sorta’ sad.

                      Posted by gewisn | October 7, 2014, 1:13 pm
                    • You have shown you just make up stuff (drink snake venom?), Anonymous, so there is absolutely no reason to believe you.

                      Posted by Chris | October 6, 2014, 1:51 pm
                    • One thing I know for sure, is that I don’t lie and I don’t make things up. You CAN drink snake venom and suffer no repercussions because it doesn’t go into the blood stream. DUH! I don’t get paid to lie and I would never do so even if I did get paid. There really IS no reason for me to make things up or lie. I am known to be a truth speaker and most people, or sheeple, don’t like that. lol

                      Posted by Anonymous | October 6, 2014, 1:56 pm
                    • Now you’ve made another claim, that you don’t lie. When you make claims, someone is going to ask for evidence, care to provide some sort of verifiable evidence that you don’t lie?
                      Would you believe me, or anyone, who simply made such a claim?
                      If you make claims without giving people a reason to believe you, what is the purpose then in bothering to write then down?

                      Posted by gewisn | October 6, 2014, 2:48 pm
                    • The full quote: “Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely.”

                      You made a medical claim, dear brave Anonymous, and yet you won’t back it up. I am pretty sure you don’t think you are lying because you are delusional. You may rant and rave all you want about that label, but you are the one that made outrageous unverifiable claims.

                      If you don’t like being thought of as someone who needs real mental health care, then don’t post so many accusations and strange stories.

                      Posted by Chris | October 6, 2014, 4:47 pm
                    • You are still blah, blah, blahing, aren’t you Chris? Because you have only one way of thinking and won’t go out of that realm, you are missing out on a lot of good information. As I said, I won’t reveal any names to you, nor mine, for protection. Only God, (who you don’t know) knows how they are tampering with all things good now, versus the drugs. They don’t want us to do anything BUT take drugs, because it keeps us sick and keeps them in money. You can look up just about anything and that’s another reason Ovomit wants the internet to go down. And on top of that, I have seen the snake venom thing proved, because someone was stupid enough to do it, but that someone wasn’t me and it didn’t affect him at all. I hate snakes, so want nothing to do with them and wouldn’t be 100 feet next to one but I know that unless they pierce and inject the venom into you, it’s not poison. The closed minds here blow me away. I am alive and well, no vaccines and no drugs so nope, you won’t convince me of any of these things being safe and I am not spreading anything around because I don’t get sick. If Ebola (another hype and created in a Lab) comes to my area, I will be okay because I have a good immune system and know what to take anyway if I should happen to be bothered in the least.. People can look ripe and tasty on the outside like a nice fresh apple but on the inside, they are mush and it’s the immune compromised ones that will go down with Ebola or any of the other things they are intentionally putting out there. Open up those blinded eyes. You could know what I know if you wanted to dive into researching it, but you don’t. However, that said, I believe you DO know, another Dr. said you are all liars anyway and know what drugs and crap do to people but you don’t care, because the almighty dollar is more important to you than the lives of human beings. Ta ta, no more for me, sick of talking to sheeple.

                      Posted by Anonymous | October 6, 2014, 5:07 pm
                    • Anonymous wrote, “You could know what I know if you wanted to dive into researching it”

                      What does the verb “research” mean to you?
                      I don’t understand. What is it that you would like Chris (or any of us) to do in order to obtain the knowledge you have?

                      What is it, exactly, that you do when you research?

                      Posted by confusedbylogic | October 6, 2014, 8:47 pm
                    • “And on top of that, I have seen the snake venom thing proved, because someone was stupid enough to do it, but that someone wasn’t me and it didn’t affect him at all.”

                      You really need to be careful with those visions. Please get some real help. If not for yourself, but for your family.

                      Posted by Chris | October 6, 2014, 5:55 pm
                    • Dear Brave Anonymous: “You wanna know, research it your damn self. I don’t get my info from you, but have been researching both sides for 18 years.”

                      So what do you use to “research”? What do you consider reliable sources? Why should we trust them?

                      “Pharma is the liar,.”

                      Pharmaceutical companies are not sentient entities, but large groups of individuals. They need to make their products conform to many regulations. Plus the post-license testing and epidemiological studies are not done by them. You still have not provided any reason other than vaccines for the reason that measles incidence dropped in the USA 90% between 1960 and 1970. Or why the US Census Bureau is part of “Big Pharma” lies, they only tabulate the reported numbers.

                      Ignoring the hard work by scientists and medical professionals to keep thousands of kids becoming permanently disabled and several hundred dying ear year from measles before 1965… and then claim “God did it” is what makes you either delusional or a liar.

                      Also, how can you ignore the blatant lies from the likes of Andrew Wakefield, Mark Geier, Boyd Haley, Amy Yasko, Rashid Buttar and the others that have used the “vaccines cause autism” scare to raid the wallets of desperate parents? Ignoring the greed and lies of those people is also delusional.

                      Get professional help. If not for yourself, do it for your family.

                      Posted by Chris | October 7, 2014, 12:00 pm
                  • “Follow the money and the lies!”

                    This intrigues me. Can you please provide the economic analysis that shows not providing vaccines would be more cost effective and keep funds away from pharmaceutical companies and hospitals. Because I was under the impression, and obviously it is flawed, that preventing diseases is more cost effective than treating them.

                    Since my children are old enough to have gotten some now vaccine preventable diseases I know what it is like to have your life affected by three kids with chicken pox for a month, and then there was the 911 call and eventual ambulance trip to the hospital because one child had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease. Why would I not want to prevent that? Why would anyone want kids to suffer from measles, mumps, Hib, etc? Explain that to me.

                    So, if you could, please provide a well documented report on how not vaccinating is more cost effective. Make sure it is comparable to Economic Evaluation of the Routine Childhood Immunization Program in the United States, 2009.

                    Plus, for additional reference there is this analysis of how much California had to spend during the 1990 measles epidemic: Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.. You can also look up data points from recent measles outbreaks in Wales where almost one out of ten measles cases ended up in the hospital.

                    Thank you.

                    Posted by Chris | October 6, 2014, 11:09 am
                • I’ve worked in healthcare for years. I was raised in the church but still believe in the miracles of science. A coworker stated to me one day, “where have all the miracles gone? There were so many miracles in the Bible but you never hear of them anymore!” She was very religious but questioning her religion. I said to her…look at what we do every day. Just because it doesn’t seem magical doesn’t mean it’s not a miracle. Miracles are performed constantly in healthcare and I believe God wants science to keep discovering new miracles that can be used to heal people. He’s given us the tools and intends for us to use them. I don’t believe God considers them the work of the devil.

                  Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 12:10 pm
    • Several years ago I had a friend who was pregnant and babysat for a woman’s children. These children apparently were unvaccinated due to the family’s religious beliefs. They came down with German measles and gave it to my pregnant friend(who thought she had already had it as a child, since back when she was young they didn’t have vaccinations against measles). As a result, my friend’s baby was born deaf…something that she has learned to adapt to, but something that could and should have been prevented.

      Posted by Anonymous | September 22, 2014, 12:08 am
    • Kirsty, my cousin’s daughter has lupus, which is an auto-immune disease. She is only able to receive vaccines that contain killed viruses. Some vaccines only have a live virus form and she cannot be vaccinated against those diseases. Her only protection against those types of diseases is herd immunity of otherwise healthy people.

      Posted by swmace | September 22, 2014, 2:01 pm
    • something called ‘herd immunity’. Basically, by everyone in a room being vaccinated against disease A, if someone comes into the room with infectious disease A, most of the people in the room will be immune (say 90%). The vast majority won’t come down with the disease. If there were 100 people in the room, perhaps one or two of the 10 people who weren’t fully protected from the vaccine MIGHT have been close enough to the infected person to come down with the disease. If those people then go out into the city, and spread out, they might not come into close enough contact with someone who was not immunized, and the disease would not spread, or would only spread to a very few people before fading out.
      If the room of people were not vaccinated, it is more likely that maybe 10 people would come down with the disease. If they go out into a population where nobody got vaccinated, those 10 people are likely to infect 10 more people by close contact, who could infect 10 more, and it escalates from there. That is how epidemics get started.

      Posted by Anonymous | January 15, 2015, 6:13 pm
  5. As a ER RN for 17 years I have not meet or heard of an autism case that has not been vaccinated. It has always been curious to me. In fact, sick children are all screened in the ER for their immunization history. Living in Cali I would think I would see many sick unvaccinated children but I do not. I am not against the development of vaccinations and I am sure they have their place, but just because the scientist have not found the link does not mean there is no link. As humans, we can sometimes be egotistical.– thinking we know it all. We are all still learning new things from the world daily. I support continual testing on the vaccines as well as a parents and individual freedom of choice. I am done being bullied to believe that vaccines are safe and I should just comply. This video was a strong example of the current bulling in the medical community.

    Posted by Stephanie | September 22, 2014, 11:46 am
    • We have the numbers on sick unvaccinated children, and they are much more likely to be sick with vaccine-preventable diseases than vaccinated children. Maybe sick people stayed away from your ER because with nurses like you, it probably has a low standard of care.

      Posted by Andrew Lazarus | September 22, 2014, 12:31 pm
      • Another attempt at bulling. Please Andrew without insulting…. Give me information on an autistic unvaccinated child. I again state vaccines have their place but I am concerned with the safety. Science change and discoveries are made all the time. I am allowed to share my observations without being bullied or put down.

        Posted by Stephanie | September 22, 2014, 1:42 pm
        • Stephanie, here’s a study of 498 autistic children retrospectively comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated groups (the vaccine in this case being MMR):

          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673699012398 .

          The authors found no differences in autism rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There are many, many other studies confirming this result.

          Do you believe that your personal experience is more authoritative than scientific studies of thousands of autistic children to test this very question? If so, why?

          Posted by Jennifer Raff | September 22, 2014, 2:21 pm
          • I have a vaccine injured autistic son who is 22. I live this “lie” of yours EVERY DAY. There IS mercury in vaccines STILL TO THIS DAY- the flu vaccine for example. And if you are telling the truth, then what about William Thompson from the CDC? http://benswann.com/cdc-whistleblower-admits-suppressing-information-regarding-vaccines-and-autism/

            One of you is lying! And it’s YOU.

            Posted by Roger | September 23, 2014, 7:25 pm
            • “the flu vaccine for example. ”

              What about the four influenza vaccines on this list that are thimerosal free? Also, the MMR vaccine has never had thimerosal, all the way back to its 1971 introduction. It is the vaccine that Hooker reworked the numbers for, and the one that Dr. Raff listed a study on.

              Making a claim about thimerosal on the MMR vaccine and neglecting that about half of the influenza vaccines that have no thimerosal is either due to not actually knowing the details, or ignoring those details.

              Posted by Chris | September 23, 2014, 7:52 pm
          • Regarding the study that compare vaccinated versus unvaccinated children, mentioned from doctor Raff, I think (but I am a simple technician, not a doctor) that cannot be excluded (apart from obvious environmental causes or genetic causes) that ALL the vaccines, and not only MMR, cause autism. The mentioned study from Prof. Brent Taylor et al., may perhaps exclude that MMR causes autism, but cannot exclude that vaccines in general , not the single MMR, could cause autism.
            Dear Doctor Raff, may ask you if you know a study, ONLY ONE, that compare for a number of years, vaccinated children versus COMPLETELY unvaccinated children, with regard to the autism? Thank you very much for your courtesy and excuse my poor english. Crescenzo Murolo.

            Posted by Crescenzo Murolo | October 21, 2014, 10:27 am
            • “ONLY ONE, that compare for a number of years, vaccinated children versus COMPLETELY unvaccinated children, with regard to the autism? Thank you very much for your courtesy and excuse my poor english.”

              Ever heard of PubMed.gov? Why don’t you look for yourself and not ask someone else to do your homework for you? While you are at it look up the “Declaration of Helsinki” and the “Belmont Report” to learn that what you are asking for is against human study ethics. I am sure you can find that information in Italian.

              In the mean time, go back and read the paper I pointed you to the last time: Vaccines are not associated with autism: An evidence-based meta-analysis of case-control and cohort studies (a pdf of the uncorrected proof)

              Posted by Chris | October 21, 2014, 10:38 am
            • By the way, many of these studies are “epidemiological” where some children are unvacccinated:
              Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence

              There is also a paper that compared the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated children in Germany:
              Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents

              Then there is this paper, and you might want to contact the Italian authors to explain it to you:
              Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82
              Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
              Authors: Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D’Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S.

              If you are still unsatisfied with those studies, then design one yourself that complies with the “Declaration of Helsinki” and the “Belmont Report.” Get it approved by an Independent Review Board to make sure is assures ethical protection of the subjects, write a grant to get it funded. Then go do it. Don’t expect others to hand feed you data just the way you want it on a very complicated subject.

              Posted by Chris | October 21, 2014, 11:15 am
            • Crescenzo Murolo,
              What are the criteria of such a study that you would find convincing?
              I am interested in what sort of study you would trust and find convincing, regardless of the outcome.
              Please identify, for the study you would like to see done…
              – the # patients in each arm of the study
              – what control measures
              – selection criteria
              – assessment methods for inclusion/exclusion
              – end point measurements
              – who you want to perform the study
              – what funding you propose for the study
              – how long it should be run
              – Since we want to avoid only recruiting children of vaccine-denier parents (so that our study measures a randomly chosen group), how you would convince the parents of the study participants to knowingly leave their children exposed to the potentially serious and even fatal diseases
              – how you propose to have the patients educated, since most US districts would not permit them to be registered in public school

              I’m not suggesting you need to have perfect answers for all these questions, but I would like to know some answer for each question so that I understand what sort of study, what sort of evidence, you would find convincing in case the study actually demonstrates, again, that vacccines are vastly safer than the diseases in question.

              Posted by gewisn | October 21, 2014, 4:14 pm
          • Dear doctor Raff, regarding what you have said to Mrs Stephany, I asked you if you can courteously give me the reference of a study that has compared along the years vaccinated children with completely unvaccinated (any vaccine) children, and I had 2 answers from Mr Chris and Mr Gewisn (that I thank for their contibution) but I hadn’t your precious opinion. Have I to consider, or may I consider, the 2 answers, in a way, as the your answer? Thank you very much. Crescenzo Murolo.

            Posted by Crescenzo Murolo | October 23, 2014, 1:38 am
            • Dear Crescenzo Murolo, Have you already considered reading the links provided to you by Mr Chris and/or answering Mr Geswins questions? If you do, I think you’ll know the answer to your own question. You’re welcome. Petra

              Posted by Petra | October 23, 2014, 6:02 am
              • Dear Petra, thank you for your comment.
                Yes I have obviously considered reading the links provided by Mr Chris (to the questions of Mr Gewisn that has anwered to my question with TOO many other questions I am unable to answer to in this moment ) that has well understood my question, and the first answer he gave is probably (and for me incredibly) the explaining answer: i.e. those type of studies are NOT ETHICAL ( that is a respectful opinion but in any case an opinion, and not a scientific fact , because for example I have an opposite opinion, i.e. for me it is NOT doing that studies that is to be considered NOT ETHICAL, in any case I’ll go see the Belmont Report as suggested by dr Raff).
                The successive link given by Mr Chris has a very promising title (Vaccines are not associated with autism: an evidence based etc.), but the same author says on page 5 that the study “found no evidence for the link between vaccination and..autism” and this is as saying that the study found no proofs that vaccination is guilt, but this does NOT mean that vaccination is surely innocent .
                In the second link given by Mr Chris there were plenty of studies but no study compared vaccinated children versus never vaccinated children with regard to the autisms (in detail, there were only two study with unvaccinated people (a japanese study, a Poland study ) but they were focused on MMR (and from the context I suppose not vaccinated meant not MMR vaccinated: in any case the articles didn’t explicitly say never vaccinated ).
                The third link is a German study that is very interesting and that really consider never vaccinated people against vaccinated people: but it makes the comparision with respect to a subset of diseases in which is not included autism.
                The fourth link is a work that compare a group of children that have received “one dose” of Thimerosal with a group of children that have received “two doses” of thimerosal, and that conclude that there are not big differences between the neuropsycological performances of the two group (that is a possibility, but I don’t see how this can fit with my question) .
                Asking to do myself the study if I am not satisfied from the current studies, as suggested by Mr Chris and Gewisn, is not realistic (let us say so).

                Posted by Crescenzo | October 24, 2014, 5:08 pm
                • “The third link is a German study that is very interesting and that really consider never vaccinated people against vaccinated people: but it makes the comparision with respect to a subset of diseases in which is not included autism.”

                  So what? They looked at all sorts other things like (bolding added):

                  n addition to atopic disorders, we further compared diseases—such as obstructive bronchitis, pneumonia and otitis media, heart disease, anemia, epilepsy, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) —in unvaccinated and vaccinated subjects. No relevant differences in the lifetime prevalences were found, neither for different age groups nor between girls and boys.

                  There was not effect on those. Children with autism often also have seizures and/or ADHD. If there was not difference in prevalence for those, then there should be no difference for autism (which has had a few changes of definition).

                  Have you found a version of The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin in your language?

                  “Asking to do myself the study if I am not satisfied from the current studies, as suggested by Mr Chris and Gewisn, is not realistic (let us say so).”

                  You will understand more once you study the Belmont Report. Though if you make demands on what kind of studies you want to see, you need to learn the rules. Or just do the study yourself, where you still have to learn the rules if you do not want be legally disciplined for endangering human subjects who happen to be children.

                  Posted by Chris | October 24, 2014, 6:19 pm
                  • Rats, bolding did not work:

                    “In addition to atopic disorders, we further compared diseases—such as obstructive bronchitis, pneumonia and otitis media, heart disease, anemia, epilepsy, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) —in unvaccinated and vaccinated subjects. No relevant differences in the lifetime prevalences were found, neither for different age groups nor between girls and boys.”

                    Remember, if you want something done right, do it yourself. Just remember to follow the rules.

                    By the way, when my kids were in high school a group of parents arranged science talks for the students. Scientists from the local university and research companies were asked to talk about what they did. A very interesting one was the woman who headed the ethics training for human studies at the university. Every person who did research using human subjects from any department (sociology, education, business, medical, etc) were required to get training through her office. She gave a very interesting talk on how simple things could go very wrong. If you live near a research university, go and see if they have someone who trains researchers on human study ethics, and see if they will talk to you.

                    Posted by Chris | October 24, 2014, 6:28 pm
                    • “Children with autism often also have seizures and/or ADHD. If there was no difference in prevalence for those, then there should be no difference for autism (which has had a few changes of definition)”.
                      I completely agree with you.
                      But the phrase “in addition to atopic disorder we further compare .. epilepsy, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)… no relevant differences were found” has not any corresponding reference in the article [i.e. the words Epilepsy and ADHD absolutely have no mention in figures, summary, tables (including the final Key Messages table ), and any other part of the article, at the point that if you cut that phrase the article do not suffer completeness ] . I don’t think that this article is sufficient to say (neither the authors claim this) that autism has more or less the same incidence in vaccinated and not vaccinated people.
                      Thank you for the link; you are right, I have absolutely to study the Belmont Report.

                      Posted by Crescenzo | October 25, 2014, 3:57 am
                    • “has not any corresponding reference in the article”

                      This is where you write a polite letter to the authors for that supplemental data.

                      Posted by Chris | October 25, 2014, 10:33 am
                • “…that the study “found no evidence for the link between vaccination and..autism” and this is as saying that the study found no proofs that vaccination is guilt, but this does NOT mean that vaccination is surely innocent.”

                  Dear Creszenco, Seatbelts are a precaution to avoid severe injuries or even death when in a car accident. IF wearing a seatbelt will cause injuries ( e.g. severe bruising or maybe even a broken collarbone) when in an accident, this means wearing a seatbelt will not leave you SURELY unharmed. So don’t use a seatbelt?
                  Different situation, same “logic”.

                  Posted by Petra | October 24, 2014, 10:05 pm
                  • Yes, if I have understood your example, you are saying that if someone wants a seat belt, he has to accept the side effects of seat bealt; I agree. But I wanted to say that NON EVIDENCE is another thing with respect to NON EXISTENCE. For example (permit me to joke) if you go in a forest, searching for the deadly Amanita Phalloides and you don’t find it, you can say that your research found NO EVIDENCE of the existence of the fungus in that forest (or, in more complicated words, your research found no evidence of the link between that forest and the fungus) BUT this doesn’t imply the NON EXISTENCE of that fungus, in that place (in other words someone else,more lucky, or more expert, could find that deadly fungus, obviously, only if it exist there).
                    Regards.

                    Posted by Crescenzo | October 25, 2014, 4:32 am
                    • Bad analogy – was this lazy search or a painstaking square-inch by square-inch search of the entire forest? You cannot compare an indifferently described search to a rigorously conducted study using internationally recognized guidelines comparing 2 or more study groups.

                      Posted by J Bankston | October 25, 2014, 7:38 am
                    • Crescenzo,
                      When you have done the forest study enough times that there is as little chance of finding that mushroom in that forest as there is chance of finding Santa Claus, then continuing to act on the possibility of finding that mushroom in that forest is foolish.

                      Posted by gewisn | October 25, 2014, 11:53 am
                    • From your example I understand you will NEVER believe any study about a relation between vaccination and autism UNLESS it prooves there is one. I think that’s very sad.

                      Posted by Anonymous | October 26, 2014, 1:38 am
                    • If you are so convinced there is a relation between vaccination and autism, you will NEVER believe any study about this presumed relation, unless it proves there is one. That is very sad.

                      Posted by Petra | October 26, 2014, 1:43 am
            • Dear Mr. Murolo, based on the general tenor of your comments I find it highly unlikely that you’re genuinely asking for information, but rather are trying to play a game of “gotcha.” If I’m correct, it isn’t worth my time to play along. If I’m wrong about your intentions, and you’re sincere, you will have my apologies and I will be happy to provide any information you wish. How can we tell? You can demonstrate to me your sincerity by explaining the main points of the Belmont report and how they might apply in this situation in your next comment. Do so, and I’ll be delighted to continue this conversation.

              Posted by Jennifer Raff | October 23, 2014, 6:56 am
          • I believe there is a difference between a child born with true autism, vaccination or not. And the I believe there are children who were born “normal” and became autistic from vaccinations, which makes me care less about your study. My son had fallen behind on vaccinations (my fault) so when it came time for his next round, they told me he needed seven that day, including the mrr. I was hesitant, told the nurse I thought that was too many and I was concerned. She bullied me, calling me a bad mom and I crumbled, allowing the shots. That night he got a bad fever and was agitated and crying alot. The following day he still was not doing well, and his behavior had started to change (he wasn’t responding). After that, my 19 month old lost the speech he had begun. He no longer played with toys like he had. He didn’t look us in the eye and didn’t respond to his name being called. In a couple days I had lost my vibrant happy little boy. We were devastated and heartbroken and angry. There was NO doubt in my mind he had mercury toxicity. Autism caused by too many vaccinations. We started him on therapy right away. Now, I don’t believe, on the right schedule, that vaccines are bad. I think taking out mercury was the right choice. I would personally never do I three in one shot again, nor would I even give three different ones at a time. With our second child, I gave him a very limited amount of vaccinations and eventually stopped because I was too afraid of him developing autism too. I think vaccinations are given irresponsibly and it gets me angry to hear I’m being an irresponsible mom for not fully vaccinating. Walk a mile in my shoes and then we will talk! Do you really think the government will ever say, “oh, oops, our bad…yeah, vaccinations cause autism” Don’t be so naive! It will NEVER happen!! Why? Money!! Can you imagine the outlash?? They can manipulate any medical report. Look, I don’t mean to get conspiracy theorist, but that’s just the way I see it.

            Posted by anonymas | January 12, 2015, 9:55 pm
            • It’s unlikely that you had any prior experience with, or had previously studied, mercury toxicity. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) So, given that neurologists, immunologists, pediatricians, virtually every relevant expert agrees that autism is not caused by heavy metal toxicity, why is there “NO doubt” in your mind that your child’s autism was caused by mercury?

              Also, you specifically mention the MMR vaccine. Do you believe it might have contributed to the “mercury toxicity” you’re talking about?

              Posted by Colin | January 12, 2015, 10:04 pm
              • There is no doubt in my mind because I lived it. Prior to this happening to my son, I hadn’t thought about how vaccinations could harm (and we all have to admit there is a chance of this happening) I do believe that he was given too many and I talked with my doctor about what happened and she agreed with me. My son’s pediatrician did not. So it’s incorrect to state ALL physicians disagree with the autism controversy. And regarding mercury toxicity, or mercury poisoning, it’s bizarre how similar the symptoms are to autism. Look, I’m not saying don’t vaccinate. Just do them at a slower schedule and pick and choose which ones are best. By the way, I was told the MMR contained more mercury than a single dose

                Posted by Christine | January 13, 2015, 8:36 am
                • Many people believe false things passionately, without experiencing any doubt whatsoever. Often it’s because the certainty is psychologically important to them–sometimes more important than actually coming to grips with the facts.

                  For example, you say there “was NO doubt in my mind he had mercury toxicity,” and you specifically call out the MMR vaccine. You also say that you were “told the MMR contained more mercury than a single dose.” You may not have any doubts, but you also don’t have the facts. The MMR vaccine doesn’t contain thimerosol, which is what anti-vaxers are talking about when they tell you mercury poisoned your child. Your child is not suffering from mercury toxicity, unless he was exposed to it in some other way. The supposed connection between vaccines, mercury, and autism has been exhaustively studied by experts who are parents, who love their kids as much as you love yours, and who have concluded that autism is not caused by mercury toxicity.

                  That’s pretty obvious when you think about it. We’ve known that mercury is toxic for a very long time. Autism is a different condition, caused by something else–it exists in kids who are never exposed to environmental mercury, and doesn’t appear in kids who are exposed to mercury.

                  Despite having the facts wrong, you have “NO doubt” that the vast, vast majority of autism experts are wrong and that your gut instinct–which again, misled you as to the MMR vaccine–is right. Is it possible that the experts know what they’re talking about, and that your instincts are not as reliable as you’ve assumed they are?

                  Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 1:23 pm
                  • Perhaps I was mislead with the MMR, but, of course, the other shots had mercury. As I have stated before, I absolutely believe there is a big difference between true autism and mercury overload. Look, like I’ve said before, I am not against vaccinations, but I know what I saw. We’re you there? Did you live it? Will you say anything to prove your “right” ? And what exactly do you mean by coming to grips? This was eleven years ago! You make it sound like I’m a weak woman…I have an awesome kid, I’m so proud of him! Don’t tell me to come to grips.

                    Posted by Christine | January 13, 2015, 3:58 pm
                    • We’re you there? Did you live it?

                      No. But being there and living it aren’t sufficient to give you reliable knowledge of what caused your child’s condition. What you saw is a correlation; the causation (or lack thereof) is invisible.

                      We know a few things. We know that even assuming, for the sake of argument, that there is no causative connection whatsoever between vaccines and autism, some kids will present the first signs of autism right after being vaccinated. We know that autism rates don’t track vaccination rates; whether vaccination rates go up and down, it doesn’t affect how many kids get autism. And we know that parents have a lot of anti-vaccine activists screaming at them, telling them that they finally have someone to blame and should believe that the shots caused their kids’ condition.

                      And in this case, we know that you had “NO doubt” despite having some extremely bad information about vaccines. Now that you know your information was bad, do you think it’s worth reconsidering whether you actually know, for sure, what causes autism? If not, then your beliefs aren’t based on facts; you’re searching for facts to support your beliefs. That’s a very common position to be in, but it’s not the way to get to the truth.

                      And what exactly do you mean by coming to grips?

                      I mean assessing the facts as they are, rather than trying to assemble them into an argument that supports what you are inclined to believe. “My kid got a shot, then got autism” isn’t supported by research. The experts on autism have considered the connection and rejected it based on the evidence. Your position is that because your kid started showing signs of it after the shot, the shot must have caused it–but as we’ve discussed, that’s not a good basis for having “NO doubt” that the shot caused the autism. After all, some kids will show the first signs of autism right after their first haircut–but haircuts, like vaccines, don’t cause autism.

                      If vaccines caused autism, decades of desperate searching by anti-vaccine activists would have turned up serious evidence by now. It hasn’t. That evidence just isn’t there. There is a reason that the overwhelming majority of parents, including doctors, scientists, immunologists, and autism experts, vaccinate their kids–vaccines are safe and effective. Even the CDC whistleblower released a public statement, reminding parents that they should vaccinate on schedule because the benefits outweigh what he believes the harms to be. (And of course, he’s in a tiny minority in that the experts hold that the harms are actually far less than what he, not an expert, believes).

                      I have an awesome kid, I’m so proud of him!

                      I don’t doubt it.

                      Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 4:15 pm
                    • Christine,
                      Why do you believe there’s “a difference between true autism and mercury overload?” What, to your mind, is the difference in symptoms? Had that set of different symptoms ever been recorded and linked to mercury?
                      Please provide the primary medical research citation for each of your answers.

                      Posted by notnearlysoanonymous | January 14, 2015, 12:35 am
            • anonymas,
              ” Look, I don’t mean to get conspiracy theorist”
              Yet that’s precisely what you did.

              If it was a conspiracy, wouldn’t the organizations who collect fortunes for treatment of illnesses (Pharma, Hospitals, Doctors, etc.) decry immunizations and try to get you not to prevent illnesses, so that they can charge for the treatments?

              If this is all so evident and so easy for anyone to see with “common sense,” why would insurance companies (who lose money when they have to pay for expensive treatments) be happy to pay for immunizations?

              If all the healthcare corporations and doctors are just out for the money, why would they require hospital workers to have immunizaitons (thereby reducing the illnesses for which they can charge the patients), and even given the immunizations to their employees for free?

              I do not mean these as rhetorical questions.

              Posted by confusedbylogic | January 13, 2015, 12:09 am
              • You misunderstood. I said they would never fess up if after all these years they discovered vaccinations DO cause autism. Why? Money, meaning lawsuits, loss of money from future vaccinations etc.

                Posted by Christine | January 13, 2015, 2:28 pm
                • They wouldn’t need to confess anything. There are plenty of independent researchers who have huge incentives to find out whether vaccinations cause autism. Consider any immunologist or autism specialist–if they proved that vaccinations caused autism, their name would go down in history. They’d be famous, and a celebrity. And yet, no serious evidence has emerged linking autism and vaccines. The closest the anti-vaccine movement has come is Wakefield (whose medical license was struck for his misconduct) and the Geiers (who were fined for, among other things, preying on the parents of autistic children with their dangerous hokum treatments).

                  Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 4:19 pm
                  • “the Geiers”

                    Mark Geier also lost his medical license in most states. David Geier, who only has a bachelor’s degree, was fined for practicing medicine without a license. This still has not slowed down their business model of taking advantage of vulnerable parents and children.

                    Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 4:32 pm
                    • Colin, this is in response to your 4:15 post. Truth is, my husband and I will never know what caused my son to change. I can either let it go or cling on to the what ifs, which do me no good. Of course there will always be doubt about vaccinations because of the timing in which everything happened, but that’s human. I’m not nearly as bitter about vaccinations as I used to be and have given some to my second son, which is a big deal, trust me. It’s been a pleasure discussing this issue with you and Chris. Thank you both for discussing this subject with respect!

                      Posted by Christine | January 13, 2015, 6:57 pm
                    • “my husband and I will never know what caused my son to change. ”

                      Guess what, even though my son had seizures from an actual disease, the neurologist would only tell us that his speech/language development issues “may or may not be related to a history of seizures.” He would say that there might be a strong genetic component.

                      Since the young man also has a severe genetic heart disorder, and a completely different phenotype than both of his siblings, it could be just a de novo quirk in the genetic sequence. For all I know a cosmic ray scrambled the DNA in one of my eggs perhaps years before he was born.

                      Here is an article about that kind of research: Solving the Autism Puzzle.

                      “Thank you both for discussing this subject with respect!”

                      Thank you too.

                      (Oh, and the neurologist told us he definitely did not have autism… in 1991, because the kid smiled. But he does have many behaviors that his autistic classmates had in his special ed. program, so now we are going through the process of getting a better diagnosis with the hope we can get him supported housing)

                      Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 7:15 pm
        • Kim Stagliano’s youngest is not vaccinate. There are several mentioned in the <a href="comments of this article.

          You said: ” Living in Cali I would think I would see many sick unvaccinated children but I do not.” Please read the impact on California’s Medi-Cal by the 1990 measles epidemic: Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

          I am sure you are sincere in your observations, but they are colored by prior bias. You obviously did not work in the hospitals which handled the several babies who suffered from pertussis in 2010, or the ones dealing with the present measles outbreak in Southern California. Vaccination is very common, so you would logically see more vaccinated kids, and in a big state like California only a few hospitals would have very sick kids come through the emergency department. Add a bit of confirmation bias on your part, you could have simply forgotten if a child with a vaccine preventable disease was treated in your hospital.

          “I am allowed to share my observations without being bullied or put down.”

          Though it would help to remind you that your observations are not verifiable data. For that we would rather depend on entities like the California Department of Health, which with a quick look shows sixty one cases of measles and over eight thousand cases of pertussis for this year.

          Posted by Chris | September 22, 2014, 2:29 pm
        • Others have posted personal acquaintance with unvaccinated autistic children. I don’t know any, or, rather, I haven’t inquired of the medical histories of autistic adults I have known.

          Science certainly changes, but there isn’t any scientific reason to believe measles and polio will injure fewer people now than they did before the vaccines were invented. I am sure you can find some older now-retired colleagues who will tell you how unpleasant that was.

          There isn’t any reason to prefer your unverified observations to statistics collected by public health authorities. They show unvaccinated children are much more likely to get sick, and what’s more, unsuccessfully vaccinated or immunocompromised kids getting pertussis is happening disproportionately in counties with high rates of vaccine refusal.

          Posted by Andrew Lazarus | September 22, 2014, 4:48 pm
        • Stephanie,
          What if your opinions are demonstrably wrong and your opinions are leading pepper to be directly harmed? If you came to believe that was the case, how would you go about correcting the mistake?

          What if every single doctor and nurse you ever worked with told you your opinion is incorrect and dangerous, and they showed you overwhelming scientific evidence to prove the point? Would you then change your mind?
          I’m sure you are open minded enough to do that. So if evidence that extreme would change your mind, what evidence that’s not quite that extreme would change your mind?
          Would a hundred highly regarded studies change your mind? A thousand? Ten thousand?

          Posted by gewisn | September 22, 2014, 9:38 pm
    • As a recently retired public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist, who actually investigated cases, clusters and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable-diseases, I know of cases of measles who were not screened for vaccination histories in hospital Emergency Rooms and in physicians waiting rooms…and who infected patients in hospital Emergency Rooms.

      Dr. Bob Sears, a California physician who is a “vaccine friendly doctor” (code for a physician who fails to follow the AAP Standards of Care for childhood immunizations), had a 7 year old deliberately unvaccinated patient who traveled to Switzerland where he contracted measles. The child return home and exposed children in two physicians’ waiting rooms and during two visits to a hospital waiting room. Dr. Sears’ patient was the “index case” responsible for the large 2008 San Diego measles outbreak:

      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/27/dr-bob-sears-vs-seth-mnookin-measles-out/

      Posted by lilady | September 22, 2014, 6:51 pm
    • Thank you Stephanie.

      My second child lost all his words and his ability to connect with the world that I born him into at 18months, days after receiving his vaccine. He is turning sixteen in a few weeks and I still have never heard him say “I love you” , “I am hurt”, “please help me” or “would you like to be my friend?”. I have a younger son who has not received vaccines because of my terrible fear and gut instincts that they may be a contributor (not necessarily the cause) and he is thankfully perfectly healthy and speaks for his older brother and is also his truest friend.

      I’m not saying that vaccines are the cause of autism but I do feel that they can be “the straw that breaks the camel’s back” for some individuals who are genetically more suseptable. Therefore, I went with my heart to protect my youngest and I do not regret it for a moment. I believe in freedom of choice. I will not tell other parents what they should or must do; nor do I appreciate others telling me such who do not understand because they have not lived through the fear, heartbreak and lifetime of special needs and re adaptation required for not only a beautiful individual but his entire family, surviving a life struggle and frustrations.

      Please do not say that parents of Autistic children are mad and selfish. Most in my experience are some of the most selfless and amazing people I know. My son has been my greatest teacher in my life but if I were able to go back to the day he took his last vaccine and make the choice again, I would have refused it for him. I don’t regret anything and I love him for exactly who he is today.. but I would like to have had a chance to see the man he could be with all the potential and opportunities most have. Mostly, I want to know how he feels and who he is. I don’t know him from his point of view and that breaks my heart everyday.

      Sue (Liam’s mom)

      Posted by Sue Bullick | January 14, 2015, 10:36 am
      • It’s very honest of you to admit that your decision was based on a gut feeling, rather than an analysis of the known facts and relative risks and harms.

        I don’t know Liam and can’t judge your parenting. I was moved once by a parent who said, “I owe it to my child to go with what the facts probably are, instead of what I feel like the facts might be.”

        Unfortunately, gut instincts are not a reliable guide to medical science. Gut instincts didn’t give us antibiotics, blood thinners, or anesthetics. Sometimes the facts are complicated and subtle enough that you just can’t intuit your way through them.

        You rolled the dice when you decided not to vaccinate your younger son. The best science, and the entire community of autism experts, agree that you did not reduce his odds of being autistic at all; there is no detectable causative connection between vaccines and autism. You only worsened his odds of getting a vaccine-preventable disease like measles.

        I’m very glad to hear that your gamble hasn’t hurt your son, and that’s healthy. As you encourage other parents to make uninformed decisions, though, you make it less likely that they’ll carefully consider the known facts rather than go with their gut.

        What if you’re wrong, and the scientists and experts are right?

        Posted by Colin | January 14, 2015, 4:16 pm
        • Dear Colin

          I’m sorry you seem to have completely misunderstood my post. I am not encouraging anyone to do anything other than make their own decisions. Mine was not at all uninformed. I have been through four years of formal health education and I understand the risks and benefits quite well for either chosen path. I didn’t realize I needed to state credentials in a short personal comment about my “experience”. Instinct is not something to be ignored either. It is a very significant factor in decision making and survival. However, that is another topic I am not interested in debating at this time.

          I was simply sharing my opinion and feelings on this particular discussion. Not suggesting, preaching or presuming anything about anyone.

          I’m sorry you feel you must tell me that you think I’ve made a mistake. I do not believe I have. I’ve weighed the pros and cons and there is not enough evidence proving that vaccines are absolutely safe and not possibly (even indirectly) a risk. I also see how they have saved many lives. In my intimate experience however, the risks for my second child, however small, were still way too high.

          I am just trying to say that not everyone will agree or accept a unilateral decision about such a subject that is not only still but will possibly always be in dispute. This choice is an extremely difficult one for certain people affected in ways some others can never understand. Unless you have witnessed it first hand in your child, please do not attack or be condescending to others when you express what you think they should do or how wrong their decisions were in your unstirred eyes.

          What if the scientists are not the only experts?
          And what if they are as human as everyone else and do not yet have the entire picture?
          This mystery is not solved.

          Respectfully
          Sue

          Posted by Anonymous | January 15, 2015, 12:50 am
  6. Lost in the controversy and semantics over vaccines is the fundamental devaluing of the lives of ASD individuals. The underlying implication that a child is better off risking death than being autistic points to a very ugly prejudice on the way we approach mental and neurological health. As a woman with overlapping neurological disorders, it angers and frustrates me to see a generation of children taught to define themselves by what’s wrong with them instead of how they be part of the social equation in their own way. I’m less than a year from my bachelors, am working toward my doctorate. I work in a hospital. I do good work, competent work. I help save lives every day. I know that for all the ways I’m not “normal” that my life is valuable, my contributions meaningful. But had grown up in the age of the “autism scare,” I might never have believed I could do any of that.

    Posted by Veronica S. | September 22, 2014, 4:41 pm
    • This is an extremely important point, and thank you for making it. A few other ASD individuals have also commented along similar lines. I was thinking of writing a post that featured YOUR perspectives. Any interest? If so, please email me: jenniferraff (at) utexas (dot) edu.

      Posted by Jennifer Raff | September 22, 2014, 4:44 pm
    • Of course. One reason we have seen a jump in autism diagnoses is self-sufficient, capable individuals are receiving it. I don’t think that was always true. As I’ve mentioned, there were two boys in my school who would now be called autistic, but we never heard that word, but there was also the brother of one of my friends. I don’t know if he had autism or some other congenital condition, but given that he was completely non-verbal, nor did he respond to words, it’s possible. (He wasn’t deaf.) Eventually his parents placed him in an institution, which was more common back then. I think a lot of fear parents have is that the 1:68 will be like the brother was, beyond parental resources and, frankly, not ever a source of any joy.

      Kids who died from polio don’t post their experiences on the Internet. Vaccines are responsible for millions of lives saved.

      Posted by Andrew Lazarus | September 22, 2014, 4:58 pm
  7. Those who scream the loudest can’t be taken seriously. You scream and yet you were protected by your parents! This issue has got to stop Babies are dying because of the result of a Dr (and I use the term loosely) doctoring his results so he can stand in the light of Fame. He had no love or caring for children. He has inflicted a diseases that could of been cured by a vaccine. Today with technology and all the evidence, Yet still young parents won’t vaccinate their their bundle of joy. Please if you love your BABY show it protect him-her from suffering from some ugly disease. Carry their life till grown, don’t carry flowers with tears to their grave.

    Posted by Victoria Dwyer | September 22, 2014, 7:34 pm
  8. “I’m pro-science, but I’m against what I’ll call “Spock-ism,” after the character from the TV show Star Trek. I reject the idea that science is logical, purely rational, that it is detached and value-free, and that it is, for all these reasons, morally superior.”
    -http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2014/09/12/348002248/why-atheists-need-captain-kirk

    Posted by Austin | September 22, 2014, 10:36 pm
  9. The study that showed a link between vaccination and autism has been proven time and again to be a complete fraud. Please vaccinate your children.

    Posted by Anonymous | September 23, 2014, 1:29 am
  10. I am a trained physician in Anesthesiology and after seeing what we were doing in hospitals with pregnant women, i cousciously decided, knowing what i was “exposing ” myself to, to labor naturally without pain medication, with a midwife. It did not make sense to many people around me but it did too me. So for many years, i was stuck in the same position as you seems to be: it did not make sense to me why so many women would expose themselves to the controle of the medical establishment in such a delicate and life transforming moment in there lives… It has taken me much humility to put myselves in there shoes and accept that all of these women, they are not ME and they are not in the same location as i am. When it came time to consider vaccination for MY kids, as an educated physician, interested in ethics, i read on the issue but what confirmed me in my decison not to vaccinate(appart from my mother bear instinct), was to learn about the facts related to Pasteur apparently discovery of the rabies vaccine(Louise Lambrichs: La verite Medicale).

    If you are a “rigourous” physician, you cannot deny the lack of incongruencies…. And you have to syay critical…

    That beeing said, i am not saying vaccination is not working in some way BUT, if i decided not to vaccinate my 4 children, it is because i thought i could offer them all that was necessary for them to develop a strong immune system(good hygiene, balanced nutrition, balanced life, love, respect of their rythme)preparing them progressively to face whatever may come in their life, never denying that they might need the medical system but not depending on it.

    As i see my four kids groing up into themselves, balanced and autonomous(but not invicible), i know that there is no science that can tell my mother bear instinct it was wrong.

    Posted by Anonymous | September 23, 2014, 8:34 am
    • You realize that the rabies vaccine is not on the standard American pediatric schedule, and that it has gone through refinements over the last century.

      Please thank your responsible neighbors that vaccinate. They are protecting your children by maintaining your community’s immunity to diseases by not letting them circulate.

      “as an educated physician,”

      You might try working on some basic English grammar style for us to believe that.

      Posted by Chris | September 23, 2014, 10:26 am
    • I remember that same argument, “you can’t know better than the mother what is best for her child,” when it came to seatbelts. Should those women be permitted to drive with an infant on their laps?

      Posted by gewisn | September 23, 2014, 11:42 am
    • Anonymous (I wonder why), drop the faux humility. You aren’t the least bit humble, you have deluded yourself into believing that your clean living and your love are stronger than polio and measles viruses. (All the kids who were crippled or died, their mothers didn’t love them enough to give them sufficiently strong immunity?)

      You are wrong. People like you and your children died like flies in the pre-vaccine era.

      Posted by Andrew Lazarus | September 23, 2014, 12:54 pm
      • Maybe i have been deluting myself, as you say. But aren’t we all? Human life is so much more complex than we like to think… We just use different ways to size it down and sometime, convince ourselves we have finally “got” it! You seem to be pretty confident about that and i am happy for you. As for me, i am still searching for answers and sometime envy people like you who seems to be satisfied with the one you have found. But i have just one certainety…. I don t know much…

        Posted by Renee | September 24, 2014, 11:11 am
        • Perhaps if you actually gave us some evidence to support your opinion you might be taken more seriously. Truly you are just some unknown person on the internet, so unless you provide something concrete like data showing vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases we can dismiss your story.

          Posted by Chris | September 24, 2014, 12:33 pm
          • Chris, you are asking data proving that vaccines are more dangerous than diseases, i unfortunatly cant give you . When i made the decision not to vaccinate, i did not have such a safety net. If you want to dismiss my story, feel free but i nonetheless was inpired by a few great thinkers you might want to look into: the great french physiologist Claude Bernard who was a proponent of the “terrain”theory, Mirko Grmek, who was a proponent of the “pathocenose”concept, maybe pathocenosis in english. I like to think that Pasteur really acknowledge , on his death bed, he (Pasteur)was wrong with his germ theory and Bernard was right with his terrain theory… We will never know but what i know for sure, from my 20 so years practicing medecine, i feel we have more chance of improving the health of population by working on the terrain as a whole(what i chose for my kids) than on the treat. I wish you all the best and thank you for taking time to read my comments, despite my bad english.

            Posted by Renee | September 24, 2014, 3:22 pm
            • “I like to think that Pasteur really acknowledge , on his death bed, he (Pasteur)was wrong with his germ theory and Bernard was right with his terrain theory”

              For one thing, Pasteur was a chemist. I recently read the 1926 classic book Microbe Hunters by Paul de Kruif. It went into a great deal of detail about Pasteur, if what you claim is true that would have been included. It was not. It did explain that in his last years Pasteur was in poor health, and on page 176 describes his death where is was surrounded by fellow researchers like Roux and Chamberland. If Pasteur had said anything about germ theory, then it would have been mentioned (in horror) by the man who helped discover a way to treat diphtheria, Roux.

              Someone else who has researched the claim about Bernard came up with this:

              http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm

              “We will never know but what i know for sure, from my 20 so years practicing medecine, i feel we have more chance of improving the health of population by working on the terrain as a whole”

              We have even more reason to doubt your educational claims if you cling to a 19th century notion. You might need to take a great deal of Continuing Medical Education credits in order to bring yourself up to the 21st century.

              From what I can see, you might want to get a more balanced biography of Claude Bernard, For one thing he was not a microbiologist, and I only found one instance of the word “terrain” at http://www.claude-bernard.co.uk . Most of the disagreement between Bernard and Pasteur I can gather from that site is on yeast and fermentation.

              It is probably a good thing that Mirko Grmek went from being a doctor to a historian. Even though he lived in the 20th century, his ideas were positively stuck back in the 18th century! I remember when I was in engineering college in the late 1970s there were lots of silly philosophical notions about science being bounced around (usually by people who were confused by something as simple as Newton’s three laws of motion). They were one of the reasons Alan Sokal wrote the satirical “Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.”

              By the way, a very good book about pathogens and the origin of HIV/AIDS is Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Human Pandemic by David Quammen.

              Posted by Chris | September 24, 2014, 5:49 pm
              • I finally get why people have been looking strangely at me, walking in the OR with my whisky bottle and piece of wood, ready for anesthesia. You are right, it will take a lot of cme to pick up. I will do some reading on sufentanil and sevo before tomorrow so i may be more up to date! The exercice has been a pleasant one… Stuck in 19 century but open to 21 century blog challenges nonetheless. Thanks for the reading references, i will certainly get into them eventually! Regards

                Posted by Renee | September 24, 2014, 7:52 pm
                • Perhaps, but subscribing to 19th century arguments that are only discussed by on anti-science websites does not help your credibility. But, sure, there have been those who have gone through medical school that believe in homeopathy, despite it being impossible.

                  Microbe Hunters is a book of its time, with lots of florid and colorful imagery. Some of it very politically incorrect. But what they went through to get to some kind of understanding of how the world works is fairly well described. The chapter on Roux and Behring is subtitled “Massacre of the Guinea Pigs.” Much of what is discussed has changed in the past ninety years (like antibiotics for syphilis instead of Erhrlich’s arsenic based remedy).

                  Another more recent book about Pasteur’s work is Rabid by Bill Wasik and Monica Murphy. It skips Pasteur’s work that disproved spontaneous generation of yeasts and things that spoil wine, vinegar, both, milk etc, but goes much more deeply into the rabies research.

                  Another one on the history of trying to find what causes influenza, and the modernization of medicine is The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History by John M. Barry.

                  For more detailed discussions on microbiology and some of the history of discovery there is series of podcasts by a professor/researcher at Columbia Univ. in New York City.. It includes virology, parasitology and microbiology. There is even one conversation with one of the sons of Jonas Salk, the man responsible for the killed polio vaccine. You can find all of the links at http://www.virology.ws/ .

                  I suspect the so-called “terrain” (not the hills we hike on), can be more accurately and scientifically described as our own biochemistry which is modified by the variations in our DNA. Bernard seemed to work mostly in biochemistry, like with glucose, his pioneering work in experimental medicine made him very familiar on how animals function. But the antibodies in our blood are reactions to pathogens, vaccine antigens (and sometimes tree pollen), and the other chemicals made to maintain function, like insulin (ooh, another good medical history book: Breakthrough: Elizabeth Hughes, the Discovery of Insulin, and the Making of a Medical Miracle by Thea Cooper and Arthur Ainsberg).

                  Posted by Chris | September 24, 2014, 8:53 pm
              • “Terrain” is a bad translation from French. My guess is the original is “terroir” or which has different connotations; perhaps “body” is implied. That doesn’t make it any better medicine, but you’d get more information working in French (a language I read badly and don’t speak).

                Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 12, 2015, 8:37 pm
        • I would agree with that last bit, I find that the more I learn, the ever increasing number of questions I have.

          Posted by J Bankston | September 24, 2014, 9:18 pm
    • I find it hard to believe that you are the trained physician you claim to be given your poor language skills.

      Posted by J Bankston | September 24, 2014, 12:28 am
      • I am a trained “french speaking” physician who just thought this blog was a forum to share experience, as Dr Staff stated. My mistake. But thank you for bringing up my poor english skills!

        Posted by Renee | September 24, 2014, 9:45 am
        • You are welcome to share your experiences, and thanks for clarifying that English isn’t your first language. Nobody intends rudeness–it’s just that we’ve had a huge number of people commenting who claim to be physicians, but then turn out to have correspondence degrees in homeopathy or the like.

          Posted by Jennifer Raff | September 24, 2014, 9:48 am
          • Jennifer, i thank you for given me the opportunity to express myself. It is no secret in my direct community how i have approach child birth and vaccination but we don t get into discussion about it. I will try to look a little bit more into the numbers cited althought, statistics and me have never been good friends. I have always refuse to consider my patients as statistics number, truly convince it took away there freedom to evolve along their own path. Maybe i trought the baby with the water? Anyways, good luck with your research, you are keeping the debat alive!

            Posted by Renee | September 24, 2014, 6:01 pm
            • Renee,
              When you write, “I have always refuse to consider my patients as statistics number, truly convince it took away there freedom to evolve along their own path.” I think I understand that you mean that each patient needs to be considered as a separate person, not as simply one of many. And I agree. You have to take the whole person into account before making any complicated decision, and not just the one organ or one system you think to be the center of the matter.

              However, some things in medicine are not really a matter of opinion or personal difference.
              Would you tell a mother that her 6-yr old with a complex fracture of the radius will “probably do just fine” without at least setting and casting the bone? Would you tell a tell a 9 yr old, “Sure, your glucose is way above normal at 324, but it’s probably nothing. Come back to see me in 6 months?” Or would you say, “Stepping on a rusty nail doesn’t require a tetanus shot, even though you’ve never had one. I’ll bet your immune system is strong enough to manage?”
              Of course you would not!

              So why is the overwhelming evidence of the value of vaccination different?
              If you knew that receiving the MMR vaccine reduced the chance of getting a;ny of the three covered diseases to essentially zero, and the chance of a serious complication was less than 1/100000, why would you do anything other than strongly recommend the vaccine?
              What is the value in Not recommending it to your patients?

              Posted by Notnearlyanonymous | September 24, 2014, 11:11 pm
        • Thank you for clarifying that English is not your primary language. It’s all too common for some folks on various forums to claim to be who they are not in actuality while hiding behind the cloak of anonymity provided by the internet – and oftentimes, it’s their use of language that betrays them.

          Posted by J Bankston | September 24, 2014, 8:18 pm
    • Excellent information for those who have no clue!

      Posted by Penthesilea Greenleaf | October 4, 2014, 1:36 pm
  11. Dear Jennifer, you seem like a sincere, honest person. Please read this… If you talk to me and I’ll explain what an honest healer should do in this conundrum: This is a very passionately written article. It will be a lot of work to get through all the references, but I might just do that. I have an opinion only one of your points… where you imply that alternative medicine is not better than scientific, evidence based medicine. I have studied and used natural medicine all my life. In my opinion, over 90 percent of science based medicine is either harmful or ineffective. In my opinion, more than 90 percent of illnesses can either be prevented or cured by natural medicine and the medical establishment is being narrow minded and actually lying about their effectiveness. They are causing far more problems than they are “curing” (that word is a lie coming from modern medical practitioners). The only caveat I have about natural medicine is that it should be implemented by a qualified, educated and experienced “doctor”. A lot of harm is being done by ill-informed and misinformed amateurs trying to use natural medicine. Other than that, even I, as an amateur can either prevent or cure a lot of illnesses that people take harmful “medicine” for. They are ingesting known poisons in the name of “medicine” when perfectly legitimate natural cures are available. Such behaviour should be considered a crime. People are dying because of the irresponsible attitude / behaviour of narrow minded, uneducated “medicine” prescribing, scientific based “doctors”. I feel very strongly about this deception. It’s criminal.

    Posted by neerajvarma | September 24, 2014, 1:25 am
  12. Here is an “alternative” medicine that has been researched more than anything else in the world… why isn’t this being used as standard practice by evidence based physicians? Because they are just as emotional as the rest of the population and are more concerned with proving themselves right than actually looking at the science: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/8

    Posted by neerajvarma | September 24, 2014, 1:33 am
  13. My daughter had her MMR vaccine at 16 months. She has had chronic ITP (Immune Thrombocytopenia Purpura) for two years since she was vaccinated. ITP can be fatal. She has had 2-4 doctors and hospital visits for the past two years. There is a documented link to MMR and ITP, My two other children did not have the MMR vaccine because of this!

    Posted by Wendy Grace Allen (@WendyGraceAllen) | September 24, 2014, 4:25 am
  14. With that logic, DO get your child(ren) vaccinated – then you don’t have to concern yourself with the fact that my child isn’t :)

    Posted by Penthesilea Greenleaf | October 4, 2014, 1:30 pm
    • Unless, of course, your child’s vaccination doesn’t take, or is has chemo, or something like that. But, whatever, just thinning the herd! My child, says Penthesilea, has a Badass Immune System and is just so perfect.

      Posted by Andrew Lazarus | October 4, 2014, 1:52 pm
    • Please thank your responsible neighbors who do vaccinate their families, because they are bolstering your community’s immunity to some very serious diseases.

      But due to forward thinking parents like you, it is not enough and we are seeing outbreaks. I hope you are good with your child staying home when there is an outbreak of pertussis, measles, mumps or chicken pox at their school.

      Posted by Chris | October 4, 2014, 4:25 pm
  15. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/01/vaccine-side-effects-extremely-rare/11779521/

    The most dangerous thing about vaccines is driving to the office to get them.

    Posted by gewisn | October 25, 2014, 9:00 pm
  16. I have a son that was vaccinated. My son has autism. Do I believe the vaccine caused it. No. I believe the ear infection that caused his temperature to spike in Tylenol to 105 resulting in him going into a seizure and am ambulance ride to the hospital is the cause. But there are no vaccinations for ear infections. Some of you will disagree with me and still insist it must somehow be the fault of the immunizations. But I can’t help you people. You will argue just for arguments sake.
    I also have other children with ADD. Still don’t think it was a vaccine. Pretty sure it’s genetics what with my children’s many aunts, uncles, cousins and even a grandparent with either ADD or ADHD.
    But like I said. You will believe what you want regardless of the preponderance of the evidence. No one can help you. And I am sorry for that.

    Posted by Bernadette | October 26, 2014, 4:01 pm
    • Oh my goodness, can’t believe what I just read. Sorry, but that has to be the dumbest remark I have ever read. There are no vaccinations for ear infections?? Seriously, if you can’t put two and two together that he got sick because of the vaccines because they kill the immune system and the fact you have other children with autism or whatever, you are truly blinded and delusional. These things are not inherited and if they can be, it’s because the vaccines carry on into your life until the day you die. Vaccines ingredients and the health issues are passed through the placenta of the Mom. My friend had a cat who was never ever vaccinated…she had the cat tested and yet the cat had vaccine residue in it’s system..really? So, either that came from vaccinated parents or it’s the crap they spray in the air and put into other drugs, which I know you don’t believe. I do pity people for their complete blindness though.

      Posted by Anonymous | October 26, 2014, 5:28 pm
      • Where’s your scientific proof vaccines kill the immune system? If they did, all people ever vaccinated would have died from infections before reaching adulthood.
        I’ve been following this discussion for a while and it’s clear to me who’s “dumb, blinded and delusional”, and I feel sorry for their children who will suffer from that.

        Posted by pdw | October 26, 2014, 6:36 pm
      • Bernadette,
        Oh my goodness, can’t believe what I just read. Sorry, but that has to be the dumbest remark I have ever read.

        Please explain your understanding of how the immune system works.

        Posted by gewisn | October 26, 2014, 10:26 pm
      • Like, no one had ear infections before vaccines! Except, measles caused many ear infections, and a lot of deafness. Where’d that all go anyway? Oh, I remember: organic food fixed all that, just by total coincidence at the time the vaccine was released.

        Antivaxers think their Magnificent Badass Immune Systems will crush smallpox, polio, diphtheria, and measles, but wither in the face of weakened versions in vaccines. It’s not surprising that on another site an antivax crank condemned that unnatural invention: spectacles.

        Posted by Andrew Lazarus | October 26, 2014, 11:43 pm
  17. In direct response to the question about the doctor’s comment: For me it’s not that I don’t trust medical treatment, I just chose not to support a preventative program that has serious medical risks associated with it, not only for my family but for the entire human race. Preventative vaccines are not a medical treatment, they are not safe for everyone and have been linked to a variety of illness at any age. Why would I take my perfectly healthy baby and purposefully compromise their immune system with chemical adjuvants when there are plenty of germs to be had at the local library or doctors office.

    I’ve recently written a post on vaccines if you want to get more of an idea on my standpoint:

    http://miscellaneous2013.wordpress.com/2014/12/09/regarding-vaccines-in-response-to-the-info-graphic-posted-by-upworthy/

    Posted by Earthling2630081503 | December 22, 2014, 2:28 pm
  18. Okay, so this is an extremely hot and touchy topic right now that will affect every single one of us who has or will have children. I’m not out to make any personal jabs but merely question and create OPEN dialogue: let’s question science as well.

    Parenting, I’m afraid, is not science and never will be. This is in another realm – the realm of intuition and moral guidance, regardless of its source. Any (good) parent wants happiness for their children, and that’s the bottom line. What happens when a parents’ intuition says that they should not vaccinate their child or that shortly following a vaccination, something went horrendously wrong with their child? Could it be that they know better, in a way, than any paper which has been written? Why are these people with disabled children being completely ignored and not listened to? Can they all be called crazy, liars, charlatans, ridiculous? Are there any studies showing what, exactly, caused the incidents following vaccinations other than the speculation that “it is mere coincidence” as Autism “usually” shows its symptoms around the same age? That explanation to me sounds just as bad as charging vaccinations for the cause of Autism just by hearsay.

    If some parents think it’s right to vaccinate and want to take the risks and weigh them against the diseases, that is their prerogative. If they don’t because they would rather take care of their own instead of the herd (funny term, really) then that is also their prerogative. This is less a scientific argument and more a moral dilemma since it all boils down to anti-vaccers being selfish and vaccers being ignorant of anything that they themselves cannot read.

    Thoughts?

    Posted by golden | January 12, 2015, 4:44 pm
  19. This is such a divisive issue! We all want what we think is best for our children. For me, this includes vaccination. I am old enough to remember getting one of the first (injection) polio vaccinations, and what a relief that was! I had already been vaccinated against smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, and tetanus, so I didn’t have to worry about those, but I still had to suffer through measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox. I knew children who suffered brain damage from measles.

    Just because some forms of autism become apparent after a vaccination does not mean that the one caused the other. They occur on the same schedule is all. The mail carrier comes to my house at the same time each day, and the bell rings in the church at the same time. One does not cause the other.

    If you choose not to vaccinate, please keep your kids out of public places, so they don’t infect children who can’t get the vaccine. My daughter was on chemotherapy 30 years ago and couldn’t be vaccinated then. She was at risk of getting diseases she could not have fought off, if she was in contact with someone who was ill. Don’t let your kids be the cause of death in one of these children now.

    Posted by Arden | January 12, 2015, 5:06 pm
  20. I was just thinking on this a bit. I do understand how the vaccines work and how our immune system works but my question/statement is just based on general education on the subject and personal observation on the topic. What if autism is linked to vaccines but not in such a general way that the non thinkers are pushing? What if it is the combination of diseases they are putting in the vaccines? I’m sure this is and has been researched very thuroughly but something is causing the rise in autism and it has to be something that’s being done at the early age of development. More than likely it’s linked to our food in my opinion because it seems like everything is. But what if a certain combination of diseases is attacking a certain genetic code in our DNA? Ok I’m starting to get outside of my education level so I’m gonna stop there. Vaccines obviously save millions of lives. But something is causing the rising trend of autism and we need to start discussing it.

    Posted by Greg Lynn | January 12, 2015, 5:55 pm
    • I wonder if the rising trend on autism is really a trend in more testing for it. In the old days they didn’t test. I grew up in a small town where we had a special education room for the not normal kids. No one tested them and I’m sure many of those kids would have been considered autistic. No one knew, a very few if any got tested, so the autism rate was not as high. But it was still there.
      I started working in healthcare back in the 70’s. Diabetes was not as common then. The normal range for blood sugar was like 100 to 140 or 150. (I don’t remember the exact range and of course Dr.s don’t get too concerned when the numbers are just a bit above normal) Now the normals only go up to 120 and fasting shouldn’t be above 100! What happened to all those people who ran blood sugars between 100 and 150? They were suddenly diabetic! All because the testing changed, not because something suddenly caused them to be diabetic. More testing and science found that people should have lower blood sugars than once thought.

      Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 10:44 am
  21. I have some key things to highlight. If the anti vaccine people are so down with how bad they are then really they should be refusing any medical help i.e. blood transfusions, medication etc as the glory of modern science has gotten rid of some of the deadliest diseases to humanity. 10 of the 12 scientists who lied and skewed their results to further their own agenda have retracted their contribution and and Lancet article has been removed. Andrew Wakefield should be ashamed of himself for creating such a public farce to further his own career. The fact that his false study caused a massive decline in the number of immunisations with the MMR vaccine means he should be held accountable for misleading and lying to the public. Here are some stats for the non believers – who are totally off the ball with this stuff.

    Smallpox – pre-vaccine: 48,164 cases, post vaccine 0
    Diptheria – pre-vaccine: 175,885, post vaccine 0
    Rubeola – pre vaccine: 503,282, post vaccine 26
    Mumps – pre-vaccine: 152,209, post vaccine 2,612
    Pertussis – pre vaccine: 147,271, 27,550
    Tetanus – pre-vaccine (deaths): 1,314, post vaccine 26 cases
    CDC statisitics

    I recently attended hospital with for my daughter and there was a young child (possibly aged 4 months old) suffering from Pertussis and struggling to breathe. Something that could have been prevented and i dont know what the outcome was for this child but God forbid the little one survived.

    Why is it that if you falsify evidence in court then you can be held accountable, if you lie to the law enforcement in your respective country then you can be held accountable however if you falsify scientific evidence which has been a major factor in the mortality of our young all because of self reward then you cant be held accountable for it.

    To those parents or believers in the anti vaccine hype – you are irresponsible and need to get your head out of the clouds. What are you going to do next – sign your family up to a ludicrous hype such as Scientology because you read a misinformed article that has been disproved and discredited even by those who actually contributed to it.

    If you are happy to play russian roulette with your childrens life then you shouldnt have children. Wake up

    Posted by Gavin | January 12, 2015, 6:11 pm
  22. Mark Largent has a book (Vaccine: The Modern American Debate) out that speaks directly to what the doctor in the bolded commentary is asking about. Essentially he outlines that while many kids are undervaccinated because of money, the small minority of true anti-vax people are mostly middleuperclass educated women. We may ask ‘how can an educated person really believe that vaccines aren’t beneficial?’ and Largent’s answer is two part: first that these women feel that vaccination is ultimately dishonest and removing the vulnerable human quality from the population (Arguably the reason we think steroid use is cheating), and secondly that these women are usually themselves vaccinated and their resistance is to not sacrifice their child to the public good when there have been doubts about the vaccine scheduling. They basically don’t want to be told they HAVE to vaccinate their kids a certain way at a certain time, even though most don’t have conflict with the idea of vaccination for themselves.

    Do I agree with anti-vax? No. But do I think that flexibility in how many shots when is a good compromise in order to get more people to (eventually) get their kids fully vaccinated.

    Posted by Nickle | January 12, 2015, 6:24 pm
    • Some of these mothers are in a backlash against feminism, probably against their own mothers. Why else do they babble about the “mild” measles—something their grandmothers and great-grandmothers would be horrified by. They somehow feel they missed out on a bonding experience between mother and sick child. You have to be upper-middle class for this to work, so that you can stay home with the child.

      Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 12, 2015, 8:31 pm
    • I think more flexibility in the vaccine schedule would help as long as those kids don’t end up with something in the meanwhile. If giving multiple vaccinations are so bad how does the military get away with it? Do any soldiers going through basic training ever get autism after getting the multitude of vaccines at that time? Just wondering.

      Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 11:02 am
  23. Im no expert but if we vaccinate everyone wont “insert illness” just evolve such as whats happening with antibiotics and superbugs? I mean if you can set me straight go ahead but from what i know and the way i personally use logic it seems we could just create worse afflictions in the long run.

    Posted by Dylan | January 12, 2015, 6:59 pm
    • Antibiotics are totally different from vaccines. Antibiotics use mechanisms to kill the bacteria that are already present. The superbugs develop or evolve so they can survive the mechanisms used by antibiotics to kill them. Vaccines boost the immune system to fight the organism if it shows up and prevent it from creating the disease.

      Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 11:09 am
  24. I have male twins who are now 13 years old. They both had all their doses of vaccines at the same time because I took them to their regular doctor appointments together. One of my sons has autism and the other one doesn’t. People who believe vaccines give children autism are mislead. If that was true, both of my boys would have autism. Being able to compare both my boys to each other while they were infants was a blessing. I knew very early, right at birth, that something was different with my autistic son because I could compare him to his brother. I knew nothing about autism but with early intervention, he is currently high functioning. Back on topic, it’s not accurate to say that vaccines cause autism and my boys are proof.

    Posted by Lori | January 12, 2015, 7:18 pm
    • I’m happy to hear your son is doing well, but since the one son was born with it , why are you bringing vaccinations into the conversation? My son got 7 shots at one time, got a bad fever that night and was a different child the next day. My son wasn’t born with it! He got it from too many vaccinations. I know what I saw and there’s no doubt in my mind.

      Posted by Christine | January 12, 2015, 10:43 pm
      • Even if what you remember is exactly what happened, there should be doubt in your mind. Given the number of children who are vaccinated every year, statistically some of them are going to get vaccines on the same day they suffer some unrelated adverse effect. That’s why vaccine studies include reports of things like bug bites and car accidents–they happen around the time of the vaccine and get reported, even though there’s no causal connection.

        If you have “no doubt” based on your observations, then your decision isn’t based on an understanding of the connection between vaccines and autism. It’s based on a gut feeling, and gut feelings can of course be wrong, no matter how right they feel.

        (And, of course, people misremember the timing of the onset of symptoms all the time. If I recall correctly, some of Wakefield’s patients remembered their kids first presenting signs of autism right after a vaccine, until the investigators looking into the fraudulent research discovered medical records showing that the symptoms predated the vaccines. And Jenny McCarthy claimed that her child’s autism first appeared right after a vaccine, until her own mother went public with the correction that actually they were aware the kid was neuroatypical prior to vaccinations.)

        Science is about making sure that when we have “no doubt,” we’re actually right. People have “no doubt” about mistaken conclusions all the time. The facts are the facts, whether or not you permit yourself to consider them.

        Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 1:14 pm
      • It was probably the high temp that made him develop autism. If he would have had an ear infection and had a high temp he may have developed autism then instead.

        Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 11:14 am
        • Are you saying a child could have encephalitis and no one would notice? To do what you are saying would take a very high fever.

          Posted by Chris | January 14, 2015, 11:32 am
        • It wasn’t a mind blowing high temp..was around 102. I’ve had numerous temps higher than that, many of us have, and we aren’t exhibiting autistic behavior. Fevers are very common after vaccinations, correct? So it would be a really big deal if every kid who got a fever after vaccinations got autism. Correct?

          Posted by Christine | January 14, 2015, 11:06 pm
  25. Jennifer Raff – Thank you.

    Posted by William McCarty | January 12, 2015, 7:47 pm
  26. I just hope that the people who need to read this article do read it! Too many people are listening to the wrong information regarding immunization. I have looked after many people who have had polio as a child, something we are lucky enough not to see today. These terrible diseases are a thing of the past thanks to immunization and they must remain so.
    I was incredibly unwell as a 10 year old with chicken pox and missed six weeks of school and have been left with many scars. I was keen for my own daughter to have the vaccine when it was available but the GP I saw at the time did not believe it was necessary. I was not forthright enough and just one year later she too had a terrible case of chicken pox. The suffering was preventable!
    There is enough suffering to be had in life without that which is preventable. Too many other vulnerable people are put at risk due to the ignorance of too many. I have seen too many children and babies with whooping cough fighting for breath to believe that not immunized is ok.
    We are fortunate to live in a 1st world country and have access to disease prevention. I am sure if we asked the parent’s of children living in disease ridden 3rd world countries if they would like their children vaccinated against preventable diseases, they would be greatful. Maybe we just take too much for granted and need to get our priorities right.

    Posted by Cathy Thornley | January 12, 2015, 8:12 pm
  27. I’m in total agreement about the typical vaccination schedule for kids.

    What are the thoughts on the hpv vaccine? I have seen a lot of scary stats/stories about it and hesitate to have my daughter vaccinated. In not an expert do I thought I’d turn to those who are.

    Opinions? Data? Help?

    Posted by danielle | January 12, 2015, 8:19 pm
  28. I love how the so-called doctors and scientists on here scoff and say things like, go see your chiropractor or holistic healer when your child is dying. The truth is I do trust my conventional doctor at times, especially when it comes to trauma, or emergency medicine. But I know all too well about pharma and from working in the industry, see how the FDA allows these “drug reps,” oh wait, that is what they’re actually called, to brainwash and place good doctors directly in their pockets, and for you so-called scientists to put down other professionals in the healthcare field is shameful. Tell me about the quackery that is good nutrition and the bodies own ability to heal and prevent disease. And how about we all question the science but also respect that maybe you just aren’t the best doctor to handle my needs at this time. Also, if everyone is so confident that vaccines don’t cause autism, and with all this alleged scientific data flying at us from both sides, why doesn’t someone tell us the cause? Doctors have such large egos they really need to swallow sometimes so the medical community can get on with learning about the true cause of disease and finding a way to effectively heal and cure and NOT immediately turn to “medicine” every time someone gets the sniffles or has a weight problem. Oh no, Americans just have to have their Z-packs! Try working together to treat patients, and their diseases, not by medicating and suppressing the symptoms, (and making our lovely cash crop that is Big Pharma richer and deadlier) and lose the egos, and we may actually be able to start trusting the science. Sorry for not wholly sticking to the subject.

    Posted by Geoff | January 12, 2015, 8:23 pm
  29. comments not posting

    Posted by Geoff | January 12, 2015, 8:30 pm
  30. I love how the so-called doctors and scientists on here scoff and say things like, go see your chiropractor or holistic healer when your child is dying.

    I’m not sure if you misspoke; doctors and scientists are perhaps the least likely people in the world to tell you to seek pseudoscientific assistance in a serious situation.

    The truth is I do trust my conventional doctor at times, especially when it comes to trauma, or emergency medicine.

    The expertise and competence of “conventional doctors” doesn’t stop with trauma cases. The only difference between trauma medicine and immunology is that the results are harder to ignore when the risk is immediate blood loss as opposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.

    If you trust your conventional doctor to know how to treat a concussion or which painkiller to administer before surgery, you should trust them when it comes to vaccines, too. Their knowledge comes from the same sort of scientific inquiry, and is subject to the same checks and scrutiny.

    And how about we all question the science but also respect that maybe you just aren’t the best doctor to handle my needs at this time.

    “You aren’t telling me what I want to hear” is not a good reason for firing your doctor.

    Also, if everyone is so confident that vaccines don’t cause autism, and with all this alleged scientific data flying at us from both sides, why doesn’t someone tell us the cause?

    “Alleged scientific data” is a good turn of phrase. Lets distinguish it from actual scientific data, which comes from actual scientists–not anti-vaxers you found on a blog or on twitter. The actual scientific data overwhelmingly supports the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

    Doctors have such large egos they really need to swallow sometimes so the medical community can get on with learning about the true cause of disease and finding a way to effectively heal and cure and NOT immediately turn to “medicine” every time someone gets the sniffles or has a weight problem.

    Perhaps it’s actually the untrained snake-oil peddlers who believe they know more about medicine and the body than actual, trained physicians who have the “large egos”? The alt-med community is distinguished from actual medicine in several different ways, but this might be the most significant difference: actual doctors are responsible for their results. Acupuncturists, chiropractors, and other snake-oil peddlers are held to a much lower standard, because their nostrums don’t work.

    For what it’s worth, every doctor I’ve ever seen–and I mean every doctor–has recommended that I eat more healthily, exercise more, and get more sleep. I’ve never had a doctor who tried to push medicine on me in lieu of that common-sense advice.

    Posted by Colin | January 12, 2015, 8:43 pm
    • I asked an oncologist today how he advised his chemo patients on good nutrition, he looked at me like I was crazy (or perhaps peddling snake oil). What I think is crazy is that from my education and research, cancer loves sugar. I know, I’m a quack, and you are the ultimate doctor with all the cures. By saying that “acupuncturists, chiropractors, and other snake-oil peddlers are held to a much lower standard, because their nostrums don’t work,” You may as well say, “Unless you are a student of the American Medical Association, the largest fraud-based organization next to the American Cancer Society, your work and your research is bogus.”

      Posted by Geoff | January 12, 2015, 9:47 pm
      • You asked a specialist how he advises his patients, who are seeing him for a very specific and specialized reason, on the basics of nutrition? Your point suggests you see nutrition as a way to beat cancer; perhaps your oncologist friend wasn’t wrong to suspect you of peddling snake oil.

        “What I think is crazy is that from my education and research, cancer loves sugar.”

        I think your oncologist friend knows much, much, much, much, much more about cancer than you do. I rather suspect that “cancer loves sugar” is about as simplistic as it sounds, and not a statement that’s much use to actual practicing oncologists or their patients. God save us from the meddling of people who think that their “education and research” into “cancer loves sugar” qualifies them to second-guess actual expert knowledge.

        “I know, I’m a quack, and you are the ultimate doctor with all the cures.”

        Well, you’re half right. I’m not a doctor and don’t have any cures.

        “By saying that “acupuncturists, chiropractors, and other snake-oil peddlers are held to a much lower standard, because their nostrums don’t work,” You may as well say, “Unless you are a student of the American Medical Association, the largest fraud-based organization next to the American Cancer Society, your work and your research is bogus.””

        I mean what I wrote. Quacks aren’t regulated as heavily as actual doctors, because snake oil (typically) doesn’t do anything. Many quack cancer treatments, for example, are peddled by people who don’t keep records of their customers’ long-term survival rates. It’s likely because unlike actual doctors, they’re not trying to rigorously test their means and methods–they’re trying to make a buck, or defend their ideology.

        Posted by Colin | January 12, 2015, 9:59 pm
  31. I am an Australian women in her 40’s. I am a highly qualified and experienced private Nanny. Over the festive season I have been around many children for Christmas parties, end of year dance concerts etc. with my charges…

    I am currently on day 5 of a positive Mumps diagnosis.

    Thank you parent of unimmunised child who contracted the mumps virus, didn’t get sick, but is now a carrier (told by 2 doctors as most likely cause).
    If this is the case, you, have cost me 2 weeks wages, put me in a position of enforced house isolation for a week, made me so very sick that 5 days after positive blood results I’m still on complete bed rest, put me through 2 x rounds of blood tests, 3 x Dr. Visits and cost me over $500….(I’m betting the bill would be more in America?)
    Still your irresponsibility could have been worse, I could have been a young male unable to be vaccinated, now sterile!
    But mostly… Why? Why would any parent want their child to get this sick when it’s so easily prevented????

    If you don’t want to be a responsible citizen with a social conscience then take your family to whoop-whoop where others aren’t affected by your “rights” and home school them!

    The adult mumps SUCKS!!!!

    (This may be anecdotal, not be scientific and not have citations and references…but from an adult actually suffering with mumps right now…its surely worth a mention)

    Posted by Nanny B. | January 12, 2015, 9:43 pm
  32. Yikes, that sounds awful. I hope you feel better soon!

    Posted by Colin | January 12, 2015, 10:06 pm
  33. Please tell me how to respond to parents that say “if your child is vaccinated, they are protected; so why are you worried about unvaccinated kids in their classes and schools?”
    I’m so sick of the argument and am stumped every time someone says it.

    Posted by Tanya | January 12, 2015, 10:06 pm
    • Ask them how they protect babies under a year old from measles. Apparently a couple of the Disneyland measles cases are in babies who are too young to get the MMR vaccine (which is given between 12 and 18 months).

      Posted by Chris | January 12, 2015, 10:53 pm
      • This is a good approach; in general, I think it’s better to ask questions than make statements (as long as they’re serious questions). The other person isn’t going to suddenly announce, “Hey, I can’t answer that, you must be right!” The question isn’t going to change their mind on the spot. But it’s a lot harder to ignore than a flat statement, because it invites thought and participation from the other person. The result tends to be a more thoughtful conversation and genuine engagement. (At least in person; I’m no expert in online conversations.)

        Posted by Colin | January 12, 2015, 10:59 pm
        • You can also question how to protect a child that is being treated for cancer or has an immune disorder.

          I happen to live a few blocks from a hospital that treats children for cancer, and that includes being a short five blocks from a Ronald McDonald House. Seeing the very tired parents with “Care Giver” badges is fairly common at my local grocery store. It really brings in the reality that any child I see may not be immune to anything.

          Though due to seizures as an infant my son was denied the DTP, and only got the DT vaccine. This was at a time when our county was having a pertussis epidemic. Along with taking him to lots of medical appointments, I asked parents of kids he had contact with if they vaccinated their children. We depended on herd immunity.

          Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 12:00 am
      • Who is their right mind u is taking such a small child to Disneyland? The greatest lack of education in is how to parent small children with some common sense. I see 6 week old babies dragged around town being touched too often. Keep your kids home as much as possible when they are tiny. Best vaccination available

        Posted by kate | January 13, 2015, 10:31 pm
        • Someone with older children. Sometimes the older kids want to do things or have medical appointments, so you have to bring your baby along. You don’t want know how many speech therapy appointments my youngest went to as a baby! Though we were either in the observation room or strolling around the neighborhood.

          “Keep your kids home as much as possible when they are tiny.”

          How long do you think you would last in a small house with a five and three year old bouncing off the walls if you decided to not go anywhere because you had another under age one? Do you make the older kids skip preschool, kindergarten, playground and playgroups just because there is a baby in the house? Do you also have your groceries delivered because you can’t leave the house with a ten month old baby?

          Also, if you go to Disney you will see groups that all have similar T-shirts. Some extended families will schedule a family reunion at Disneyland, and then everyone wants to come. Including parents with children under a year old (especially if they have older children).

          Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 10:59 pm
    • I would just tell them, that vaccines are not a hundred percent. I recently had some tests done, to see what I am immune to, found out I have no immunity to hepatitis b, or whatever the hep vaccine they give. I know I have been given that vaccine several times in my adult life. For whatever reason my body won’t produce the antibody to fight it off. From what my doctor has told me, that puts me at risk to contract the disease.

      So I figure children are like that too, sometimes the vaccine, just doesn’t take for whatever reason. Also I would tell that there are some kids unable to get vaccines, due to being allergic or their immune systems are already compromised.

      Also don’t quote me on the hep vaccine, I really can’t remember which hep vaccine it was.

      Posted by Charjen | January 13, 2015, 12:34 am
    • Tanya,
      Thank you for a serious question.
      I generally answer that question about “so if you’re family is vaccinated, why do care if mine isn’t?” with three points:
      1) I care about your kids, and whether they are going to have to suffer terrible results from your misunderstanding of the science. If your neighbor with several toddlers said he purposely uses lead paint around the house or leaves electric wires exposed, would you just shrug and say, “Well, my kids are protected, so why should I care about his kids?” You wouldn’t, because you’re not a horrible person. You would say something, even something small, trying to get him to think about protecting his kids better.

      2) Like everything else in this life, vaccines are never 100%, and even if I’ve given my kids 90, 95, or 98% protection from a vaccine-preventable disease, I have no interest in having someone else’s misunderstanding of the science risk my kids’ health.

      3) I don’t talk about the abstract concept of herd immunity.
      I ask if the person choosing not to vaccinate cares about the person in the grocery line who has cancer or leukemia and cannot be effectively vaccinated, or does he at least care about the infant too young to be vaccinated in the arms of the mother in front of him in line. I tell them, “I don’t get the flu shot every year to keep myself from getting sick. I do it to keep me from passing on the flu to people who could die from it. Even if I can fight off a flu bug, I might have passed it on to 5 or 10 people by the time I even know I was infected. How about you? Are you wanting to let yourself or your kids pass these illnesses on to those who are too young or too sick to be vaccinated?”

      Posted by gewisn | January 13, 2015, 12:45 am
      • All of you have replied to Tanya with some terrific responses to a parent, who questions why parents whose children have been vaccinated should be concerned about those who are too young to have received the primary series of the Recommended Child Vaccines…and children who have a valid medical contraindication to receiving certain vaccines due to a past severe adverse reaction to one (or more) of those vaccines.

        There are children and adults who have certain congenital or acquired immune compromised/immune suppressed conditions (those undergoing treatments for cancer or who are on long term prescribed corticosteroid medications).

        http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications-vacc.htm

        Tanya, you might mention that those children of the questioning parents, were at one time, infants who were quite vulnerable and they benefited by the social contract which is (or should be) engrained within caring members of our society…to protect the most vulnerable members of society by having a highly vaccinated population.

        Posted by lilady | January 13, 2015, 3:52 am
  34. This is an outstanding article Dr. Jennifer Raff! I have also noticed much of the U.S blaming the immigrant children that have crossed our boarders recently for the explosion of illnesses our vaccinations would normally protect us against. What is your take on this?

    Posted by Angelina | January 12, 2015, 11:17 pm
    • Vaccination coverage in Mexico is better than in (wealthy) Marin County, California. Anti-vaccination nonsense is generally an upper-middle class conceit. Poor people (including illegal immigrants) tend to have more recent experience with how epidemics wipe out the rich and the poor together. The recent outbreaks of measles are generally traced to some Special Snowflake who wasn’t vaccinated by choice, often because upper-middle class Mommy wanted the warm and fuzzy (and perverse) bonding experience of staying home with a sick child. That’s another reason illegal immigrants aren’t playing this game: you generally need a parent who doesn’t work outside the home who can stay to nurse Junior and his measles.

      None of this is intended for or against Obama’s immigration policies; they just aren’t relevant to the vaccination crisis.

      Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 13, 2015, 10:52 am
    • My thought on my question: how are the immigrant children to blame for the not so past explosion of respiratory illness, how do we know it hasn’t been a problem prior to their arrival? We have never closed our borders to other nations and countries that maybe aren’t as advanced in medical science as we are. Point being is how are the immigrant children to blame? What about others that come into our country legally..and what about just plain evolution of viruses and disease? . Just doesn’t make sense, fingers being pointed in one direction. ( I didn’t receive a reply so this is just my opinion)

      Posted by Angelina | January 13, 2015, 10:58 am
  35. Dear Jennifer, as an astrophysicist, you should know that the difference between short term and long term research are vastly different. Furthermore, I’m sure you have seen the effects of extrapolating long term data from short term. The medical community has no way of knowing the long term generational effects on people who are vaccinated simply because we haven’t had the technology to do so, and as you say, many of the vaccines have only been around short term. If you have seen recently, nature finds a way to kill. What I’m speaking of are resistant diseases. We as people are born with natural immunities to diseases, and when someone isn’t, they lack the bare essentials to survive in a brutal world. If you look at everything with that idea in mind, it’s easy to see what direction we are taking human beings when we don’t let natural immunities come out; on their own But by our moral principles, we put short term mortality ahead of long term. Maybe people who do not vaccinate their children are being fed false information, but maybe you’re basing your “facts” upon short term data instead of possible long term results.

    Posted by steve | January 13, 2015, 12:26 am
    • I am not an astrophysicist. Giddian, do you know how long each vaccine has been in use? How long is ‘long enough’ to fully understand their safety, in your judgment? And why are you comparing vaccinations (which harness the body’s own immune system) to antibiotics? When you say “We as people are born with natural immunities to diseases, and when someone isn’t, they lack the bare essentials to survive in a brutal world,” it’s clear that you don’t understand how the immune system works at all, nor how vaccines actually work.

      Posted by Jennifer Raff | January 13, 2015, 8:39 am
      • “We as people are born with natural immunities to diseases, and when someone isn’t, they lack the bare essentials to survive in a brutal world,”

        That is a more honest explanation of anti-vax nuttery than usual. Although there was probably a time when people as obnoxious as this were exposed on rocks as children for the good of the community.

        Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 13, 2015, 10:48 am
        • Agreed! Our ID twins were born 2 years ago @ 24.3 weeks gestation, and it has been a hard road trying to protect them against illness.

          Posted by Angelina | January 13, 2015, 11:06 am
          • If by antivax nuttery you mean that I believe in darwinism and natural selection as the best the best detirmining factor for the overall survival of the human race, then yes. You’re so busy worrying about short term mortality, that you haven’t stopped to consider the long term mortality of humans. Aside, you can’t just quote one sentence from a thought and take it out of context. Oh, wait you can, because your brain is only capable of dealing with very small concepts.

            Posted by steve | January 13, 2015, 1:27 pm
            • Did you just tell Angelina that it would be a good thing if her premie twins died from disease? Are you that heartless? Have you already practiced infanticide on your imperfect children?

              “Oh, wait you can, because your brain is only capable of dealing with very small concepts”

              Ironic, considering that you have no actual understanding of the basics of Darwin’s writing, nor in how evolution works. Especially in regards to human mortality, something that has increased a great deal over the past century.

              Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 1:37 pm
            • What is funny is that without the civilization he decries, the nasty dweeb “Steve” who thinks he has such great genes would have been roasted and eaten by the other members of his tribe tired of his narcissistic preening. Even Neanderthal man took care of the sick and elderly.

              I’m happy that with civilization, including vaccines, human beings on not reliant on being the biggest and strongest. And I really, really suspect that Steve, writing from his mommy’s basement, should feel the same way.

              Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 13, 2015, 3:37 pm
      • Sorry. This was supposed to be addressed to the original writer of the article who claimed they are an astrophysicist. And, no they have not been used long term. The vaccines for Diphtheria and Pertussis have been around since the 1940’s, for polio the 1950’s, Rubella 1968. That’s one generation. When we start letting other mechanisms control our ability to survive, were giving our ability to survive over to the mechanism we’ve created. In essence we are fighting natural selection It came about for a purpose. Companies like monsanto are creating our foods to be pest resistant. Its the same concept. The difference is that a generation of plants has a larger impact overall on our environmental spectrum. I fully know how vaccines work. What you don’t know is the generational impact of being vaccinated. Nobody does.

        Posted by steve | January 13, 2015, 1:52 pm
        • “This was supposed to be addressed to the original writer of the article who claimed they are an astrophysicist.”

          Where did anyone on this page claim that? The “Dear parents, you are being lied to.” article says:

          But as a certain astrophysicist recently said “The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it”.

          The blue letters go to a link, and it is obvious the astrophysicist being quoted is Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Have you heard of him? His “Cosmos” series was awesome.

          “The vaccines for Diphtheria and Pertussis have been around since the 1940’s, for polio the 1950’s, Rubella 1968. That’s one generation.”

          The smallpox vaccine, that is no longer needed, was around for three centuries. The first rabies vaccine was developed more than a century a century ago. That is more than one generation.

          “What you don’t know is the generational impact of being vaccinated. Nobody does.”

          Actually, you have fully demonstrated a lack of understanding of history, biology, epidemiology and lots of other things. And for thinking that Dr. Raff is an astrophysicist because she quoted one shows that you really need help with reading comprehension, especially since you cannot seem to figure out to click on links like the “About me” at the top of the page.

          Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 2:03 pm
        • When we start letting other mechanisms control our ability to survive, were giving our ability to survive over to the mechanism we’ve created.

          Yes. That observation applies to vaccines, which help us survive when our natural healing abilities would not be sufficient to keep us healthy. It also applies to shoes. And fire. And tools. And pointy rocks, and organized agriculture, and the written word, and spoken communications, and artificial buildings, and concrete, and sewers, and soap, and electricity, and bread, and antibiotics, and satellites, and the Oxford comma.

          Human beings use mechanisms to improve our lives and security. We’ve been doing it for a very long time. It’s not a bad thing.

          Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 3:23 pm
    • I totally understand about the long term of letting natural immunities come out. The people who do that will not be able to continue their Genetic pool because they will die out from disease that they could have been vaccinated for. We humans can’t evolve natural immunities that fast. The superbugs that have developed are there because the natural forms of the bacteria died off from the antibiotics given, and the bacteria that survived and reproduced were the ones that developed an immunity to these antibiotics. Bacteria reproduce at an alarming rate and can evolve much faster than humans.
      Dr. Frazier, my immunology instructor, said that people with sickle cell don’t get malaria. It can’t survive in those sickle cells. So in high malaria areas guess who’s gene pool survived and reproduced while those with malaria died off?

      Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 11:51 am
  36. I’d like to see better references for this article. That is, can you please provide peer reviewed, generalizable scientific studies that support the claims made? All if the sources are just other articles. Thank you kindly.

    Posted by Karen | January 13, 2015, 12:45 am
    • Karen–several of the references linked to are annotated collections of peer reviewed journal articles. Several of them are summaries of research studies, written by qualified experts. Some of them are news articles. Some of them are fact sheets put out by the CDC and other medical organizations. I tried to include a variety of types of references because most people don’t have access to the primary literature.

      Posted by Jennifer Raff | January 13, 2015, 8:34 am
  37. Reading through some of these comments is seriously depressing; I just wish everyone, and I mean everyone, had read the books “Plagues and Peoples,” “Guns, Germs and Steel” and maybe some others that would give them some sense of the impact these currently preventable diseases have had on history (anything that kills millions is bound to have an impact.) Maybe, just maybe they’d be a little less likely to believe any drivel circulating online (or maybe, they’d be convinced that history is just a crock and the authors were paid off by “big pharma”.) Guess my views were set before I ever had kids, by the family history of the two children that my grandmother lost from meningitis and pertussis. It probably wouldn’t hurt if these skeptics would also spend a little time on the Autism Speaks website, either, which now notes that some recent studies have determined autism originates before birth, while other studies suggest air pollution and particulates may be causes (the site also recommends vaccinations in most cases, but the skeptics are likely to overlook that, too.)

    Posted by Wendy | January 13, 2015, 8:34 am
  38. I wonder how much this person got paid by the pharmaceutical companies to write this article? It amazes me that people will blind themselves to something so harmful for money. I have seen first hand 2 children die after having there vaccine shots administered to them. The saddest part is that after the death of my friends first child the doctor blantently lied & said the vaccines had nothing to do with the death of her child so sadly she put her trust back into the pharmaceutical company & doctor to watch her second child die from vaccines that were administered again. I challenge any parent who is planning to vaccinate to walk into a doctors office with a lawyer written consent of release that says that if vaccines are administered to your child & anything should happen negatively to them physically or mentally that you have the right to sue not only the doctors office administering the vaccines but also the pharmaceutical company that provided the vaccine I guarantee that you will be walking out of that doctors office without a signature on that release form. How do I know? I have walked out of every single doctors office without a single signature! If you can’t back up that it’s not dangerous because you won’t risk getting sued then I am not putting my child’s life at risk!

    Posted by Chelsea | January 13, 2015, 12:26 pm
    • I was not paid anything by any pharmaceutical company to write this article.

      Posted by Jennifer Raff | January 13, 2015, 12:38 pm
    • “I challenge any parent who is planning to vaccinate to walk into a doctors office with a lawyer written consent of release that says that if vaccines are administered to your child & anything should happen negatively to them physically or mentally that you have the right to sue not only the doctors office administering the vaccines but also the pharmaceutical company that provided the vaccine”

      Well, actually anyone who gets vaccinated in the country has that right because there is a special program that allows settlement and a very low bar of evidence: the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I hope your friends who suffered a terrible loss were treated well with their claims.

      Posted by Chris | January 13, 2015, 12:47 pm
      • Generally speaking, no suit would succeed against the doctors’ office except for something egregious (wrong vaccine, contaminated, re-used needle from another patient, etc.). I must confess, however, that without a name attached, I don’t believe the particulars of the underlying story.

        Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 13, 2015, 1:07 pm
    • I have seen first hand 2 children die after having there vaccine shots administered to them.

      What was the outcome of the NVICP proceeding?

      I challenge any parent who is planning to vaccinate to walk into a doctors office with a lawyer written consent of release that says that if vaccines are administered to your child & anything should happen negatively to them physically or mentally that you have the right to sue not only the doctors office administering the vaccines but also the pharmaceutical company that provided the vaccine I guarantee that you will be walking out of that doctors office without a signature on that release form. How do I know? I have walked out of every single doctors office without a single signature!

      I’ve seen versions of that form floating around. It’s not designed to get signatures–it’s designed to get doctors to refuse to sign it, so that anti-vaxers can shriek about it online.

      No one has the authority to give you consent on behalf of a third party. I can’t give consent for you to sue Google for giving you bad information, your mechanic can’t give consent for you to sue Ford if he does a bad job changing your oil, and your doctor can’t give you consent “to sue … the pharmaceutical company that provided the vaccine.” Why would a doctor sign a form saying that you have their consent to sue a third party, when they don’t have the right to give that consent? The fact that they refuse to do that doesn’t mean that they think vaccines are dangerous, it means that they don’t want to sign agreements pretending to be doing things they don’t have the legal right to do.

      Nor does the doctor need to sign a form saying that you can sue them. Whether or not you can sue them depends on your claim and the facts, not their consent–the form is meaningless. If there’s a legitimate vaccine injury, parents go to the NVICP rather than civil court. They get free lawyers there, and are more likely to win their case than they would in normal court. If the claim is based on negligence instead, they can sue in regular court. But the form is irrelevant.

      Try this: go to your mechanic and ask for an oil change. Then wave a form in his face and shriek at him, “YOU MUST SIGN THIS FORM SAYING THAT IF THE CAR HAS ANY TROUBLE I CAN SUE YOU AND FORD AND GOODYEAR AND THE EPA AND EXON AND THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION! WHY WON’T YOU SIGN IT? SIGN THE FORM OR YOU’RE SAYING THAT YOUR OIL CAUSES BREAKDOWNS!” He won’t sign it. It’s not because the oil causes breakdowns (or autism).

      Posted by Colin | January 13, 2015, 1:42 pm
    • I’m allergic to something in a tetanus vaccine. I had a bad reaction and probably shouldn’t try another tetanus shot. Just because I had a reaction doesn’t mean everyone else will. I would recommend everyone who can, should get a tetanus shot.

      Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 9:27 pm
  39. First of all. There was a documentary about one of the anti vacation people. She went on and on about dangerous atoms in the vaccines. Then the reporter satt down and had a nice breakfast with her. Surprise surprise they had a breakfast with all those “dangerous atoms in it:P

    Now as of the comments about agent 666 they mean you are working for the devil. Some of them anti vacation people are religious.

    So I guess that when you believe a man walked on water you can also think that normal things you touch every day is dangerous.

    It’s not easy being a anti vacation guy/girl when you get all that science in your face.

    I rest my case.

    Ps. Great article.

    Regards
    Jan Henriksen

    Posted by Jan Henriksen | January 13, 2015, 1:37 pm
  40. I see two very distinct discussions being linked in this article/discussion. One is the, very obvious, “to vaccinate or not”. The other is the alternative medicine lifestyle. These are not two in the same. My children are vaccinated, fully, but on a modified schedule. For the medical personnel on here bashing chiropractic, acupuncture & herbology as viable methods of maintaining health: are you saying that we are irresponsible parents for avoiding over medicating our children? So unless we accept every bit of medical advice we are not acting in our child’s best interests? I find it stunning you would suggest, with so much disagreement within the medical community & the constant changes in both prognosis, treatment and drugs the FDA suddenly realizes are dangerous, that ANY responsible parent should blindly follow “science” over their gut. Yes, vaccines are necessary & I support them 100%. My children also get chiropractic adjustments & acupuncture for wellness. In fact my acupuncturist cured my son’s eczema in 2 treatments, with herbs, after 12 months of steroidal cream & no resolution from “science”. Recently we all had the flu & saw our acupuncturist who was able to shorten it’s duration & severity with ANY potential side effects such as those of Tamiflu. The world is a vast & wondrous place, filled with a volume of medicine provided by nature & God. The most dangerous thoughts out there are we can ever be superior to nature, beat every disease, conquer every wilderness. An open-minded & EDUCATED commentary on alternative medicine is what this thread lacks. I encourage you to seek what you advocate, and education. Be less narrow minded. Learn about where alternative medicine has succeeded where western failed. It will serve you & the families you treat far better than anger & superiority

    Posted by kate | January 13, 2015, 10:17 pm
    • I find it stunning you would suggest, with so much disagreement within the medical community & the constant changes in both prognosis, treatment and drugs the FDA suddenly realizes are dangerous, that ANY responsible parent should blindly follow “science” over their gut.

      I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that you blindly do anything. As for following science over your gut, yes, I think that’s probably a good idea. One of those things put people on the moon and eradicated smallpox. The other is your gut.

      Posted by Colin | January 14, 2015, 12:38 am
    • I believe in integration between alternative and traditional medicine. They both have their place but one shouldn’t put down the other. Both together can do wonders.

      Posted by Linda | January 14, 2015, 9:30 pm
      • Linda,
        “I believe in integration between alternative and traditional medicine. They both have their place but one shouldn’t put down the other. Both together can do wonders.”

        What sort of evidence would you find convincing that “alternative medicine” is nothing more than medicine that has not yet been shown to be effective, and safe, and reliable?

        I’m not asking if that statement is true or false, simply what sort of evidence you would find convincing – if that evidence was presented to you.

        Posted by gewisn | January 15, 2015, 12:04 am
        • I’m speaking from my own experience. I have RA. I’ve been on meds for about 30 years. I still take my meds that prevent more joint damage and help somewhat with the pain. I joined an integrative medicine group because of my neck pain becoming debilitating. It was recommended by my Internist that I have steroid injections or surgery. I wanted to try alternative medicine before trying something invasive. The integrative medicine group works with your physician and makes plans with alternative methods to help with my pain. I used diet changes, excercises, massage, and physical therapy. This group also does acupunture, meditation, and other holistic methods. It worked! I’ve not had surgery or anything invasive and my neck pain is down to a very manageable level.
          That’s my convincing evidence.

          Posted by Linda | January 15, 2015, 6:23 pm
          • Linda,
            I appreciate the reply, but you answered the opposite of my question. I wanted to know what sort of evidence would make you a disbeliever in alternative medicine.

            It’s easy for any of us to point to what confirms what we believe. It’s often much harder to consider what exactly would make us change our minds.

            Posted by gewisn | January 15, 2015, 8:45 pm
            • Statistics to show that more harm than good came out of alternative medicine. I think those statistics will happen when alternative medicine says don’t follow the medical community guidelines. This alternative medicine group did advocate vaccination.

              Posted by Linda | January 16, 2015, 10:29 am
              • Linda,
                Thank you so much for answering. Very few do.
                Now, of course, I’m going to ask another.

                You say you would change your mindand discard an alternative medicine treatment if statistics showed it did more harm than good. Then would it also be true that you would discard the alt-med treatment if the statistics showed it did no more good than placebo? Because that would mean the treatment can’t do anything but harm, even if that’s just the time/money wasted and the risk of injury from traveling to the appt. Then of course there’s the “harm” done when a useless treatment convinced a patient to ignore, forego, delay effective diagnosis and treatment (even if that’s another alt-med treatment, but one that actually works.) Even if it didn’t cause you to forego effective treatment, if it’s not doing you any good and it is convincing a single person to forego effective treatment, then it’s harming someone.

                Posted by gewisn | January 16, 2015, 10:56 am
            • In Linda’s defense, I don’t think anyone in traditional medicine doubts that exercise, diet changes, massage, and physical therapy are useful. My traditional physician has just sent me to PT for tendinitis and I don’t feel she’s doing something revolutionary. (As for exercise and diet changes, she’s been on me about that for a long time.)

              Posted by Andrew Lazarus | January 18, 2015, 6:16 pm
              • Andrew, of course you are correct.
                There is nothing “alternative” about diet, exercise, or physical therapy.
                Massage is a bit different, since you’d have to know what type of massage and what it’s being used to accomplish.

                Posted by gewisn | January 18, 2015, 6:26 pm
  41. For those of you who think vaccines might be more dangerous than the diseases they prevent,

    I’m interested to hear how you would respond if
    A) you found out that a parent in your kids’ school carpool was suggesting to all the kids (including your two kids, 6 & 7) that wearing seatbelts is more dangerous than not wearing them. This parent tells the kids that there is mounting evidence that seatbelts are responsible for more injuries than the collisions, because most collisons happen at low speeds and the occupants would not have been seriously injured but the seatbelts caused significant injuries. You find out that your kids have stopped wearing seatbelts in that parent’s car and even in other cars due to the warnings from that parent.

    B) you discovered that the parent at your kids’ school who often provides the cupcakes for holiday parties was putting large amounts of colloidal silver into the batter because he believes this will prevent all the kids from getting sick. There is so much silver in the cupcakes that two children already began to show skin changes from the silver becoming deposited in the skin.

    C) your kids’ school notified you that a family which returned 3 days ago from a medical mission to treat ebola patients in western Africa has kids your child’s school. The family has been advised to keep the kids home for a few weeks to be sure there is no chance of transmission at school, but they declined to follow that recommendation and the school has no policy or legal capability to keep them out of school. Furthermore, since there is no policy to forgive absences because of another child’s health condition, the school policy of punishment for unexcused absences will be enforced for any child who misses excessive class days due to the potential exposure from the kids returned from the ebola epidemic region.

    Posted by gewisn | January 14, 2015, 9:39 am
  42. Vaxrs vs Nonvaxrs,
    Pardon the acronyms. Please let me take a moment and explain the only 2 possible outcomes here. Vaxrs simply have to come to the understanding and come to terms with the reality that nonvaxrs are not a public health threat. Philosophical differences will never be resolved by bantering back and forth. It only reinforces individual belief, and begins to foster hate. If vaxrs are unable to accept nonvaxrs, then the only possible solution for them is isolation and relocation of nonvaxrs, much like we did to the American Indians. If that’s the only option, then can we please have California or Southern France?
    That’s it. There is no other outcome. You will never convince me and educated people like me that the current vaccine policy and mandates are safe and effective. Never.
    I’ve read article after article in every peer reviewed journal there is, you can find countless articles is support of each side of the argument. Your personal bias will dictate which ones you give the most credit to. This is not a public health debate, it is a human rights debate.
    Are we really going to force immunization on everyone, or just make life miserable with segregation for those who choose not to vaccinate. I would die to protect my children from military policy entering my home and forcing vaccination by gunpoint. This would ignite a whole new American Revolution. There’s too many of us to try and force with policies and mandates. We simply won’t conform by a mandate. So please, help policy makers do the appropriate thing, and that is to come together and hear the concerns of people like me. Have honest, intellectual, logical conversations about why vaxrs are afraid of nonvaxrs, and bring in the experts from both sides.
    Why do they think nonvaxrs are a threat to them, and their children who are “fully” vaccinated against these diseases? Do unvaccinated children truly harbor diseases that could ignite a pandemic? Are vaccinated children immune compromised and therefore at greater risk? The science behind these questions is there and very convincing to those who take the time to look. But most all of these conversations are being held by individuals with little to no science background? And so again it is all just heated opinions!
    So… I’m a nonvaxrs, can you vaxrs come to a place where you can accept and live with me and my unvaccinated children? Can you love us too? If not then, oh well, it’s your taxes that will likely pay for my relocation, my mortgage, my Ford Tundra with a monthly living allowance. Right?
    This is truly the only solution.
    Hope this helps.
    Dr. Bean

    Posted by Rob | January 17, 2015, 8:08 pm
    • Rob,
      Could you please explain how you came to the conclusion that “nonvaxrs are not a public health threat” to those who cannot be vaccinated effectively?

      I’m not asking for a debate about the facts, but an understanding of the process you followed to arrive there, how you decided which sources to trust and which to ignore, how you learned to read the scientific journal articles and prioritize some over others, perhaps including ideas and conclusions you had along the way before your eventual conclusion you presented here.

      Posted by gewisn | January 18, 2015, 6:04 pm
    • I see you left a similar comment elsewhere.

      Now about this part: “I would die to protect my children from military policy entering my home and forcing vaccination by gunpoint.”

      Now, Robert Bean, Doctor of Chiropracty, which jurisdiction has proposed that scenario? Be specific by providing the actual legislative document. Are they proposing that in Sequim, WA?

      “Do unvaccinated children truly harbor diseases that could ignite a pandemic?”

      Do you know what recently happened at Disneyland?

      “Are vaccinated children immune compromised and therefore at greater risk?”

      Why would you say that? Also, what is your solution for protecting babies under age one from measles, like a couple that were infected at Disneyland?

      Posted by Chris | January 18, 2015, 6:52 pm
    • Evidently, your decision is set in stone. How do you plan for your offspring to avoid coming in contact with infants that have not had the opportunity to receive vaccinations? Also, as a taxpayer, I would find it extremely offensive to have taxes pay for healthcare support for your offspring should any come down with any of the preventable diseases for which vaccines exist and suffer life changing ill effects as a result – due to your decision regarding them not receiving vaccinations.

      Posted by J Bankston | January 18, 2015, 8:26 pm
  43. Our child died from the vaccine against hepatitis B. We, our relatives and friends who have seen it. Healthy child died… Vaccines, horrible, healthy living, ecology, the products that should be developed, not medical experiments. I ask the question – what is more profitable? Once to build the filter station in Zimbabwe and all will be drinking clean water or every year to vaccinate people and complain about those who are not “managed”? 1000 TIMES – vaccination – deceptive method of use of medical devices! Raise bees, clean water, encourage environmental protection and so on – the disease will not.

    Posted by vladimir | January 26, 2015, 5:02 pm
    • Vladamir,
      Since the pro-vaxx side has always provided the data to back up their claims (you can claim it’s all lies, but the data is there), so I will assume you will present us with the full medical chart documenting your claim right away.
      Please let us know when the chart is uploaded to a computer so we can arrange for you to transfer the file to Dr Raff so we can review it.

      If you’re not going to provide the data to back up your claim, well….

      Posted by cleverlyconfused | January 27, 2015, 12:44 am
      • Good day! My family lives in Ukraine. Unfortunately, my house and land seized by the Russians. However, I was able to display documents , but they reflect the health of the child prior to vaccination, changing health immediately after vaccination (within the first hours, convulsions, loss of consciousness, shrill cry, feeding and so on, all as described in the annotation from the manufacturer (India) , as well as its condition until the last days of life. Before the invasion of the Russians, we had our own website, with 1,400 subscribers, photo and video materials. There is also the fact that after medical stabilization , after 6 months of stay in the intensive care unit of the city of Lugansk, we took her child home with a subscription about his possible death, because he had no options to swallow, suck, physical, etc. We were given a maximum of 30 minutes of her life outside the hospital. We have studied the drainage system from the lungs and nutrition breast milk on the probe, which was placed in the home. So we fought for her life , then learned about the American system restoration from Mr. Glenn Doman. And could it restore to the highest possible level (on the basis of our terms and conditions). For all 3 years of her life we don’t go to doctors because they were shocked by our “success”. Unfortunately the baby died…. . We gave birth after her boy and then a girl and I personally house was delivering. Children are completely healthy ( we stand on children as refugees in the city of Kremenchug, Poltava region, Ukraine). So I can say that I saw many children after vaccination with health problems for 4 years, and children who do not have such problems. This is sufficient. You ask to pass the physician documents for review, OK. So doctors are taught on different systems? What can be considered one doctor from another, if they learn from the same sources? How can one person having their academic knowledge , objavlatj about their wrongness, not having other sources of information? Remember Giordano Bruno with his “but the earth still Hortitsa” . I don’t want to offend people involved in medicine, I want to say that people are designed so that you do bad to others of their greed, vanity, and possibly other facts. Everything around us says about it. So, my opinion on vaccines – wanted as better, and it was a design flaw and admit it’s hard, time left and so on

        Posted by vladimir | January 27, 2015, 7:14 am
        • Vladamir,
          I’m very sorry for everything your family has had to endure. I certainly do not mean to make light of it.
          But I do hope you can understand that as far as evidence that someone might use in order to help them make their own decisions about healthcare, or about funding future research, yours is still a completely unverified story.

          Posted by gewisn | January 27, 2015, 9:04 am
  44. There has been a lot of news about the anti-vaccination movement lately and I must say that I feel troubled by our medical community’s response. The articles I have read written by medical professionals have been harsh, dividing, and using an “I am right” voice.
    It seems to me that the deeper issue is one of trust. There is much mistrust of big money pharmaceutical and personally I have yet to be convinced that big business pharmacy has my or my family’s best interest at heart. This mistrust runs deep and is very disturbing. This being said, I feel the anti-vacc movement is one born of mistrust not of ignorance. To call anti-vaccers ignorant is unkind.
    As a medical professional I feel it is my job to support my patients and their decisions whether or not I agree with them.
    Let’s not create more division but address the real issue of miss-trust.

    Posted by Abby Pingree | January 29, 2015, 4:54 pm
    • “The articles I have read written by medical professionals have been harsh, dividing, and using an “I am right” voice.”

      Can you share with us which articles you found offensive.

      “There is much mistrust of big money pharmaceutical and personally I have yet to be convinced that big business pharmacy has my or my family’s best interest at heart.”

      Apparently about one in four of the Californian measles cases have required hospital care. I do not understand how spending a fifty to a hundred dollars for two MMR doses is costlier than treating even just one in ten measles cases in the hospital. So forgive me if I am not convinced by the “pharma profit” argument.

      Posted by Chris | January 29, 2015, 5:21 pm
    • Here is an article about the financial impact of a measles outbreak. Seriously think how you want the money you pay in taxes to be spent. Do you want it to go to better public transport, or making sure your neighbor’s child undergoing chemotherapy does not have to worry about getting measles, pertussis or chicken pox?

      Tell us the truth on what you think is a better way to spend you taxes.

      And as a parent of a child who suffered seizures due to a now vaccine preventable disease and saw the medical bills for his time at the hospital… I really really want to know how it is cheaper to treat a disease instead of prevent it.

      Posted by Chris | January 30, 2015, 1:27 am
  45. Officials: Up to 1K possibly exposed to measles in Ariz.

    With as many as 1,000 people across three Arizona counties potentially exposed to the measles, state public-health officials are asking people who think they may have come in contact with the virus to isolate themselves.

    In addition, they are asking those who may have been exposed not to show up at doctors’ offices, emergency rooms or urgent-care centers, where others could be exposed to the highly contagious virus, which can linger in the air for two hours.

    The possible exposure rate of 1,000 people is tied in large part to those who may have come in contact with 195 children who Maricopa County health officials say were exposed to measles between Jan. 20 and 21 at the Phoenix Children’s East Valley Center in Mesa.

    Posted by notnearlysoanonymous | January 29, 2015, 7:09 pm
  46. Best article I have read about vaccinations. It gets straight to the point, and does so without being confrontational. I hope this will at least provoke some to question the anti-vaxxer movement. Thank you for writing this. It is more important than ever.

    Posted by Jenny Miller | January 30, 2015, 5:49 pm

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