Open thread: please share your thoughts!

Jennifer Raff —  April 6, 2014 — 1,112 Comments

My most recent post (“Dear parents, you are being lied to”) has sparked a very lively discussion. I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts on it, but I also want to follow up by asking for your reactions to one comment that I found particularly interesting. (I’ve edited it a bit for brevity)

As a pediatrician who’s spent extensive time working in the US and overseas and has seen children die from EVERY disease (except small pox) for which there is a vaccine I am appalled at the lack of education by the general public on the vaccine issue. This is my rant: I had two unvaccinated children in the US die from whooping cough, one from tetanus, and 2 from meningitis in the past few years. Perhaps this reflects our country’s generally poor understanding of math and science in general. A recent large study in the US showed that no matter how scientists try to educate US parents about disease and disease prevention, whether it is vaccines or hand washing, parents simply cannot follow the logic.

It’s devastating to see children die from preventable disease and despicable that it is happening here. I would like to know why those whose children end up in the PICU with tetanus or whooping cough now trust us to save the life of their child? Why do you run to a doctor when you are terrified your child has tetanus after refusing to vaccinate? Why am I now competent to save your child’s life when they have meningitis or epiglottis, but I wasn’t competent enough to keep them from getting sick? If there was no medical help for your unvaccinated child if they acquired a vaccine preventable illness would you think about vaccinating? If you’re not willing to run to your anti-vaccine friend, treat your child with advice from non-scientific sites on the internet, go to your chiropractor, or your holistic healer with your dying child perhaps you shouldn’t be taking their advice about vaccines. –Anonymous

To those of you who simply don’t trust the medical community’s use of vaccines, I am curious what you make of this physician’s point. Given your reservations about vaccines, do you trust an MD to treat yourself or your children for any medical issues at all? If so, why do you trust his/her education and experience on some points but not others?

I invite anyone, pro- or anti-vax, to share your thoughts on this. Please respect each other by following the commenting policies (and feel free to alert me if I miss a comment in violation of them).


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Jennifer Raff


Scientist, fighter, reader. In pursuit of the extraordinary.

1,112 responses to Open thread: please share your thoughts!


    In South Africa they are strict you can not enroll your child in a school if you can not provide a vacination certificate that you receive when a baby is born. My daughter has had all her vacinations. We even got the hepatitis vacination from work and I am a civilian at the SAPS.

    Christina Waycott June 2, 2014 at 8:30 am

    No wonder other countries hate us and think we are spoiled. Children around the world are dropping like flies, but here we are have people turning up their noses at what other cultures are dying from the lack of. I still remember a school project from elementary school where I had to ask my mother who her hero was as a child. Her answer was Dr. Jonas Salk, because she had polio and the vaccine helped her. She lives with the consequences of polio to this day.


    I wholeheartedly support the thesis of this article. One comment: For non-scientists, the journals “Science”, “Nature”, and “Scientific American”, all available at libraries, are very accessible to laypersons and quite readable by anyone with a 10th grade reading level.


    As a parent my delema comes from understanding the devistation of diseases and wAnting to protect my children and society through vaccination . Yet the contents of the vaccines are not all safe or preferred. There are chemicAls used in US foods, drinks, medications and vaccines that are banned in other countries. Instead of fighting against vaccines and for them. All sides need to band together and fight for purification of above mentioned issues.


      “There are chemicAls used in US foods, drinks, medications and vaccines that are banned in other countries.”

      So what? Sometimes they bend over backwards to public pressure without regard to the science. Japan is infamous for bending over backwards to anti-vaccine scares, which resulted in pediatric deaths.

      First from the 1970s, on the third page of Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story, it is explained that Japan delayed pertussis vaccination for infants only to have over forty babies die of pertussis in 1971. Then more recently they made measles vaccination voluntary, as noted in Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan, it had fatal consequences:

      According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

      So instead of telling us something has been banned elsewhere, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers on why these substances are dangerous in certain products.


    I think the most important message here is to educate your self as a parent. Having two immune compromised sons I had to weigh the issue very closely. We as a nation vaccinate so early that some medical conditions are not fully diagnosed when we start, as was my case.We need a way to screen infants for conditions that might affect vaccine tolerance. Failure to thrive followed vaccinations which prompted me to start asking questions. The best answer I got was this, “Vaccines do not cause Autism as so many seem to think, I do however think that if a child has an underlying condition that vaccines can aggravate or highlight that condition that was already present.” Our Neurologist at the time’s explanation. Testing revealed that my two sons are immune compromised and we then adjusted to a delayed schedule of vaccination and they both tolerated that to a better degree. They are not able to have the flu shots as they have life threatening responses to them, so myself and my other children have to make sure we get them every year as not spread it to my sons. Them getting the flu could cost them their life so I ask that you vaccinate your children as well. As toddlers they had to wear masks to preschool and out in public. During the N1H1 flu outbreak a woman verbally attacked me in Walmart because she thought my sons had the N1H1 because they were wearing masks. My younger of the two sons who was 4 told her, “I not sick, you got germs.” The woman quickly left. I could stand on every side of this argument but the truth is this is not a black and white issue. Educate yourselves, make informed educated decisions based in fact and not fear. Trust your pediatricians to give you the best advice to protect the health of your children and if you don’t trust them find one you do. It is suppose to be a team effort to keep our children healthy.


      Another important reason for vaccination: If children are not vaccinated for whooping cough they can pass it along to babies AND us older folks. I am 68 and had whooping cough because I was exposed to someone who was not vaccinated. I had a VERY bad time. I know it may seem selfish but please think of others when you make these decisions.


        But if you’re vaccinated then how can you “catch” the whooping cough from anyone? Also, those who ask us to please think of others, I ask the same, please think of others (those whose families have been devastated by Autism). Whereas you had a very bad temporary bout of whooping cough, my kids have a very bad permanent bout of Autism.


          Because like pretty much all medicines, vaccines are not 100% effective, and the pertussis vaccine isn’t even close. This isn’t rocket science.


          Because….. newborn babies and young infants are too young to have received the primary series of DTaP vaccines and if they contract pertussis are at extreme risk for permanent impairments or death. Other children and adults have valid medical contraindications and cannot receive the primary series DTaP vaccines or the Tdap booster vaccine. Some children and adults are immune compromise/immune suppressed and are unable to mount an effective immune response to fight off pertussis and die from overwhelming infection.

          Because… is part of the social contract for healthy people who have no medical contraindications, to receiving pertussis-protective vaccines, to be fully immunized so that they are not disease vectors and to protect the most vulnerable groups in our society.


            Thank you lilady for the explanation, I truly didn’t know why it would matter, now I do. :o)

            That aside, a key part of what you wrote is “healthy people who have no medical contraindications” … The problem is that, as far as I know and at least back in the time when my son was receiving his vaccinations, there was no way to tell if there was a medical contraindication until the adverse reaction happened, which is typical (my niece just recently had a horrible reaction to a vaccine), even thru today.

            So at some point it becomes “okay, do I vaccinate my baby and risk all these miserable, and what could be as bad as death, side effects” or do I not vaccinate him/her and risk the illness (and the wrath of those who are unquestionably against those who have done their research and decided that the best thing for their child is to not have the vaccination).

            See, the other thing is, my son will (unfortunately and quite sadly) never contribute to your (or my) social security account, in fact he’s drawing full SSI for his Autism and co-morbid diagnoses, and unless some miracle happens he’ll be in this situation for life.

            There are four or five young adult men that come through here that will never contribute to your (or my) social security, indeed they are drawing on it (and they’re on EBT if they’re homeless/transient) just like my son is (my son won’t qualify EBT until he’s 22 because he lives with me, he’s 20 right now).

            Over 50% of young adults (mostly men) on the autism spectrum have not moved on to meaningful work or secondary education by two years after graduation. My son graduated in 2012 and he takes care of an elderly lady’s lawn, if lucky every week, for $25. Some of the kids who come through here don’t even have that.

            So until they figure out how to determine if a child does or does not have medical contraindications, and how bad the reaction will be, how do we all decide what’s more important?

            I so do not mean to be rude or anything here (I’m 50 and am definitely headed into the “older” side of society), I’m just trying to point out where we’re headed (where we are already actually) if they don’t get this reined in fast. And if they continue to insist that our little ones be vaccinated without finding out beforehand whether or not the child has contraindications, then as fast as Autism is rising, the next generation and the next generation, and so on will each have less and less people contributing to the system and more and more drawing on it.

            And, I would consider a child/adult that has Autism to have medical contraindications (there are SO many maladies that people with Autism suffer) and because of this my son has not had the flu shot in many years and has not had any whooping cough vaccinations except what he received when he was younger. My fear, and it’s a very real honest fear of many parents of kids/young adults with Autism, is that if we get any more vaccinations for our “kids” then they’ll regress yet again after the progress they’ve made such that it is and even possibly end up worse.

            People are running on fear because they feel that folks who don’t vaccinate their kids are causing illnesses for the public and parents of children/young adults are running on fear that their child will have yet another negative reaction to a vaccine and possibly regress again.

            Problem is, there are visible negative reactions and invisible negative reactions. The visible ones are easily documented, the invisible ones (such as Autism) are not so easily documented. So how do you recognize there was a reaction until the child shows it?


              Diane Forster-Dennis,
              I’m confused.
              What is it that leads you to conclude that vaccines have led to autism in a single case, including that of your loved-one?

              Is it really that, “Well, A occurred and then B happened, so it must be A caused B, and no amount of information could make me think otherwise?”
              I will admit that it’s hard for me to believe that you would be basing all these decisions about your son’s health, your health, and the health of everyone around you on that.

              Please tell me I’m wrong.


                I have a real problem with the population that is in denial that “A caused B with no scientific data to prove otherwise. At the school for developmentally disabled children where I was employed for 10 years EVERY parent of the autistic childern stated that their child was developing normally until being vaccinated. We’re talking 40 to 50 children in one small school district. Statistically speaking that is pretty sound evidence with nothing else to contradict it. We are over vaccinating our childern these days, 30 years ago when mine were receiving vacs 4 at one time was not only unheard of but warned against! It is my observation that autism has been on the rise since the number of vaccines at one time increased.


                “At the school for developmentally disabled children where I was employed for 10 years EVERY parent of the autistic childern stated that their child was developing normally until being vaccinated.”

                Can you provide actual verifiable documentation for that extraordinary claim?


              Ms. Diane, I have read all your comments on this page and I won’t state what I think of you for discrediting a mother whose child is dead while your still lives, but I want you to read this.


              If so many family members have ASD it is genetic. Vaccines do not, nor have they ever caused autism, and every single scientific study ever done (aside from Wakefield’s) supports this. You mentioned the Hannah poling case, whose claim was settled for Encephaliis and whose mother has come out as saying that her autism is genetic and that that was why she was in the study inn the first place, do investigate a link between mitochondrial DNA and autism. Your children’s autism was never caused by vaccines and for you to insult a woman whose child DIED because of a lack of vaccines and to insult people whose children HAVE legitimately suffered because of a lack of the vaccines you preach against is despicable. Your children’s suffering, while horrible, was not the fault of any vaccine and I pray that no one listens to you so their children won’t die because of your misinformation. You seem to be implying in every instance that autism is worse than death. You would rather children DIED than were autistic. And that is a horrible stance to take.


            @gewisn, I’m sorry if this reply doesn’t end up where it should, I’m having a hard time figuring out how to reply to posts to make sure they end up in the right place. I’m hoping you see it. :o)

            My situation (my son’s situation) is that at 3 months pregnant I almost lost him; at birth he went emergency C-section and had 2 hours of respiratory distress (that interestingly the all-knowing doctors [that's not directed at you] didn’t tell me about, I read it in his chart); he had massive ear infections which resulted in 4 sets of tubes and now in 2012 he had a permanent set placed; at 13 months he became incredibly ill and at 15 months they finally diagnosed him with Kawasaki Disease and placed him in the hospital and gave him Immuno-Globulin overnight.

            During this time frame, before he was diagnosed, I had the paramedics at my house so many times for him because he was so sick he was having febrile seizures and stopping breathing and all kinds of stuff. One time the 911 operator asked me to describe what he looked like and she said “you just described a dead person to me”.

            He then went on a minimum 3 month aspirin regimen and had many EKG’s/chest X-rays/etc.

            During all this time he was “fine” in regard to milestones, even ahead in some of them. They held off his MMR until he was 22 months old (late October) because they were concerned about his system and how he would handle the shots.

            I had forgotten that his MMR had been put off until I happened to be looking at his shot chart. It was within a month or less of having that shot that he started showing signs that something was wrong, regression, etc.

            I never doubted parents when they said the vaccinations caused their childrens’ Autism but I was firm in that it didn’t cause my son’s Autism because he was fine at 18 months (typical time for an MMR). Then I saw his shot chart and started remembering the doctors expressing concern yet still giving him the shots.

            In my research (every day for 8 years now) I’ve found that it could have been the Immuno-Globulin, it could have been the Hepatitis shot, it could have been the MMR shot, it could have been a flu shot that I received, it could be related to what happened during pregnancy and birth, or it could be a combination of all of these things.

            My position is that there’s no denying that mercury is poison (remember when someone would bust one of those old-time thermometers and all heck would break loose about it?) and there’s no denying that mercury was in my son’s shots (as well as my daughter’s shots). Did the mercury cause it? Maybe. Does mercury cause all cases of Autism? I don’t think so but I don’t know for sure. Did the trouble at birth cause it? Maybe but there are plenty of children that are fine that went through worse difficulties than my son did during pregnancy and birth. Did the immuno-globulin cause it? Possibly, the more I’m reading about it the more it sounds like that can be a culprit as well. Did the fact that the doctors gave him the shots, even though they were concerned about how he’d react, bring on the Autism? Maybe.

            But honestly, how does anyone know the truth? How can anyone in today’s day and age just accept with blindness whatever the doctors tell us? If I had done that when my son had Kawasaki Disease he’d be dead now. I pushed and pushed and pushed those doctors until they finally figured it out. And then, they were wrong regarding when he should have the EKG’s (and I knew this from the research that the same doctors gave to me to read) and I had to point that out to them.

            Another time his psychiatrist gave him a medication and he started complaining about hearing voices. His psychiatrist poo-poo’d us. Our son ended up in the psychiatric ward and the psychiatrist there said that a rare side effect of the medication is hearing voices. He took my son off of the medication and the voices stopped.

            Another time a headache doctor put him on a blood pressure lowering medication because he has migraines. Another psychiatrist then decided to yank him off of his anti-anxiety medication (a medication that absolutely must not be stopped cold turkey) and put him on something else. My son’s psychologist heard the two medications and immediately grabbed his medication book. Those two medications together had a risk of death. Another psychiatrist that we talked to immediately took him off of that second medication and put him back on his anti-anxiety. Fortunately this all took place in one day so he didn’t go a day without his anti-anxiety med.

            I’ve had enough medical “not-so-good” experiences that have shown me that I cannot rely on what the doctors are telling me, I have to do my own research as well.

            Many years ago I was diagnosed with “cluster headaches”. I figured “they’re doctors, they must be right”. I finally decided to do some research and it turns out that I don’t have “cluster headaches”, I have trigeminal neuralgia. I presented my findings to my now doctor and she completely agrees that I was misdiagnosed.

            I hope it’s obvious why I don’t blindly trust the doctors/pharma/government, especially with my kids’ lives.

            Also, there are cases that the government has quietly settled with families. Here’s one:

            The above (not the link but what I wrote above) is all about my son. I haven’t even touched on my daughter and the troubles she had and has but, she didn’t have those other problems my son did, the only thing they have alike in that respect is the vaccinations.

            I don’t purport to have the answers. I do research this every day so I see both the pro’s and the con’s in regard to vaccinations. As I’ve said in the past, and I think it’s in this discussion page somewhere but I’m not sure, I’m not against vaccinations, I’m against putting poison (mercury/lead/thimerosal) into our kids bodies and our own. I am not anti-vax, I am anti-poison.

            gewisn, I very much appreciate how polite you were to me in asking your questions, thank you. :o)


              I believe you are pointing to the Hannah Poling case, whose claim was settled for a Table Injury, encephalitis…not autism. Hannah’s father, who is a physician and her mother who is a nurse and a lawyer, petitioned the court to seal the records.

              Recently, a lawyer whose claim before the Vaccine Court for his son’s autism was denied for lack of proof posted comments on an anti-vaccine blog. He attempted to use the Poling case to convince members of Congress to hold yet another hearing about the Vaccine Court’s decisions. That hearing, was never held and the posts by that lawyer on that anti-vaccine blog met with a stunning rebuke from Mrs. Poling:


              “It is deeply disturbing to me to be told that Mr. Hazlehurst is yet again discussing my daughter Hannah Poling’s VICP case when he has been made aware on more than one occasion that he is making assumptions of fact that are completely incorrect.

              First, Dr. Zimmerman was not an expert nor was he asked to be an expert on Hannah Poling’s case. The government conceded her case before ANY opinion was rendered or given. When the government denied the seizures as part of her vaccine injury, we asked Dr. Zimmerman to opine on that issue. The vaccine injury had ALREADY been conceded. In addition, and I say this only because it is now public record, the government conceded a table injury. This essentially means that they did not have to determine whether or not the vaccines caused Hannah’s injury but that her case fit into the table.

              Second, Hannah Poling was listed as one of 20 potential test cases. We, her parents learned that she was going to be a test case the same way everyone else did…when the case was conceded. I had indicated that I wanted Hannah to be a test case or be taken out of the omnibus. This was because I was worried that no one was addressing the mitochondrial issue, which was key in her case. As can be seen by reviewing the test cases, mitochondrial disorder was never addressed.

              Third, I cannot speak for Dr. Zimmerman in any way. I am going to assume however, that when Mr. Hazlehurst indicates that Dr. Zimmerman diagnosed (Rolf’s) child with “regressive encephalopathy with features of Autistic Spectrum Disorder” which, he indicates is the same diagnosis Zimmerman gave Hannah, Rolf Hazlehurst must have also walked into Dr. Zimmerman’s office asserting that his child (Rolf’s) had been vaccinated and then regressed into ASD. I say this because that is what we did. We knew immediately that Hannah had an encephalopathy and when she had not improved in the acceptable 6 month period, we had her in to see Zimmerman. If this was not the case with Rolf Hazlehurst (and I frankly do not know whether it was or was not), then it is hard to understand why Rolf thinks Dr. Zimmerman or any other physician can read minds. I am not trying to say that the Hazlehurst’s should have known or could have known. It is only to say that if they did not connect the dots, how could they expect the physician to? The term “encephalopathy” has multiple causes as does “features of autism” or “autism.” The use of the term, “regressive encephalopathy with features of autistic spectrum disorder” does not state an etiology. That would need to be determined by history and or laboratory tests, etc.

              Finally, and perhaps for purposes of Rolf’s request that Hannah Poling’s records be released to the public, Jon and I have not allowed the release of Hannah’s records nor will we ever willingly allow third parties to tear apart her medical history which includes other close family members as well as things that should have never been in the record to begin with. This case was not litigated so there is very little to “see.” When a case is litigated, the judge and attorneys have an opportunity to redact material that would be inappropriate or an invasion of privacy for others. That did not nor can it happen in this case as it was not litigated.

              While I completely understand Rolf’s frustration with the VICP program and do commend his fight for justice for his son, I do not think it is appropriate or fair for him to continue to use my daughter (who is now a teenager and is able to see her name all over the internet in relation to autism and brain injury but incapable of understanding the meaning of the terms), for his own purpose. When Jon and I spoke out regarding our daughter’s case it was to try and shed light on the connection between autism and mitochondrial disorder. It seems to have helped some but it has come at a very high price—our privacy.

              Terry Poling
              mother of Hannah Poling

              Posted by: Terry Poling | November 11, 2013 at 09:07 PM”

              You’re changing your story Diane. You’ve stated previously that your child’s seizure disorder did not impact his neurological condition, yet now you describe the multiple febrile seizures he experienced which were not associated with vaccines and which caused episodes of hypoxia/anoxia.

              Your husband has a seizure disorder, you have two children diagnosed with ASDs (one of whom also has a psychiatric disorder). On your YouTube page you claim that you have been diagnosed with an ASD. Haven’t you and your family been referred to a geneticist, to find out if you do, in fact, have a genetic disorder?

              Autism is genetic, i.e., you are born with it.


            Thank you lilady. Unfortunately no we have never been referred anywhere (but that’s par for the course with the experiences we’ve had with the medical field). Yes I’ve been diagnosed, my daughter is unofficially diagnosed, my son is diagnosed, and several members of my immediate family and extended family are undiagnosed (many of them don’t believe in it). I do believe that it is genetic (at least in some cases) but I also lean towards the thought that it’s a “marker” that is triggered in some and not in others. Which is another “finger point” to genetics, makes sense if it’s triggered in one family member that it’ll be triggered in some others in the same family. I’m not changing my story lilady (this keeps wanting to auto-change to milady so I apologize if I miss an auto-correct), I was just filling in the blanks because of the prior question asked of me. I do wish we could be referred somewhere but I doubt that insurance would pay it and with all the expenses we’ve endured over the years and the inability to make a good enough income because he’s home with me almost 24/7 will keep us from that testing. It would be great though!

            @Chris, please search the engines for “autism and suicide” (without the quotes) to find out how common suicide and attempts are in people with Autism. The reason my son attempted was because his Autism made him “odd man out” in the neighborhood and he was always dis-included in gatherings because he had that “need to be in charge to know what’s going to happen” issue. In addition one of the much bigger neighborhood boys decided to become my son’s bully, in a major-league physical way. We got the police involved to no avail, same thing at school except this other bully that picked him up and slammed him to the ground was detained by the school police officer. He was living a miserable life even as I was trying to help make things better.


              You’ve made some outrageous statements about ASDs and the care your child was provided for his multiple serious health problems, and have yet to apologize to “patti augeri” whose child died from meningitis, a vaccine-preventable-disease.

              You manage to superimpose your spectacularly ignorant “opinions” against the collective knowledge of hundreds of thousands of physicians, researchers academics and scientists who have thoroughly debunked the specious link between vaccines, the ingredients in vaccines, the spacing and timing of vaccines and the onset of autism or any developmental disorder or disease.

              Your son’s multiple seizures, his serous otitis media and his psychiatric problems, were not caused by any vaccines or any medical treatments he received; yet you still perseverate.

              You claim you are involved 24/7 in your son’s life and adjustment problems, yet you find time to post multiple inane comments here, which are lifted out of the anti-vaccine playbook.

              Get a life, get a clue and get your son some professional psychiatric help.


            “please search the engines for “autism and suicide” (without the quotes) to find out how common suicide and attempts are in people with Autism.”

            Telling someone to “Google” something is a cop out. If you make a claim you need to provide the actual verifiable evidence for that claim. And unfortunately I am sure that if I searched those terms I’ll find the very sad cases of a mother killing her child and then committing suicide.

            Unfortunately suicide is one of the largest causes of deaths among adolescents. It happened to a friend of my daughter when they were seventeen. And she was not autistic. And yes, being bullied is one reason, which is also not limited to autistic persons.

            There are many supports needed for adolescents and young adults with disabilities. They have many needs, but those are being swept aside due to the diversions in the “vaccines are bad” debates. The blame game needs to be stopped, and efforts needed to more focused on providing support to those who need it.

            Here is a resource you might find useful:


          I guess when one can’t explain how Autism happens to affect a child, it is important to find a scapegoat…. I am sorry you feel it is necessary to blame vaccines and scare others from potential deadly preventable illnesses. Educate yourself beyond the fanatical anti vaccine crowd.


          What does your child’s autism have to do with vaccinations?


      i do agree with the statement you made “educate yourself” but must disagree with another you said unfortunately it is a black or white issue. unless your child has a medical reason NOT to get vaccinated like immune defficiency problems ,you should period anything else is criminal. in any other situation willfully endangering someones life would get you arrested and charged , but in this situation prents are allowed to endanger the lives of their children and other peoples children with no consequence


    I agree with the article almost entirely. However, I want to pick up on the quote that stated that science is true whether or not you believe in it. I realise that this was not intended to be over-analysed, but I think it’s a problematic sentiment. Firstly, science itself can’t be either true nor false because it is not in itself a belief or assertion. Science is a process by which we refine our understanding of objective truth. It would be better to have said that science WORKS whether you believe in it or not. This is more than mindless pedantry. There is a problem with public perception of science that it purports to deliver absolute truth. When a theory is overturned or when scientists disagree this is seen publicly as a failure and is used by those with an anti-science agenda to further their cause. Careless assertions like this can appear arrogant and reinforce a misperception that ultimately hurts science.


      ” It would be better to have said that science WORKS whether you believe in it or not.”

      I like this!


      Take that up with Dr Neil DeGrasse Tyson. The quote is from him, given that he has a degree in astrophysics and a masters in philosophy of astrophysics, I’m sure he would have a robust argument to support his assertion.


      Any ‘scientist’ should know that the field of Science is a SEARCH for truth. It’s not THE truth, because it takes time for Science to catch up as the research technology improves. Think of what we thought Science knew as “truth” 100 years ago!


        Science, or the scientific method, is the only method we have of discovering reality. Sub out science for reality because reality is real weather or not you believe in it.

        “Science is about discovering what the universe really is, not what makes us feel good.”
        Carl Sagan


      Well said


    It’s simple. First son: a healthy little boy who died of meningitis before the vaccine was available. 2nd and 3rd sons: vaccinated, still alive.Experiencing a parent’s grief may allow you to open your eyes and listen to the facts.


      This is probably the most important and poignant comment made on here. Hopefully others won’t have to experience the same grief to understand the realities of the situation.


        Yes it is tragic that she lost her son however, I experience grief every day that my son (20) expresses such sadness that he doesn’t have friends, a girlfriend, a job, how to drive, can’t live on his own, etc. That grief goes on for a lifetime as well. No matter how you try to help your child through his life, yes his entire life, you still experience overwhelming grief that your child is hurting. And then there’s the fear of what happens to your now adult child when you die and they have no one to help care for them. So no matter what pro-vaccine folks say, there is tremendous grief when a child has Autism. And to anyone who says that vaccines don’t cause Autism or don’t have bad stuff in them (or used to when my son was vaccinated), you obviously didn’t have a child that went into regression after his/her MMR shot. That doesn’t mean that other peoples’ children have not had reactions. Both of my kids did, one was a “little professor” and is making it on her own but struggling and the other is my son, 20, who is now part of the over 50% of young adults with Autism who do not have gainful employment or go to higher schooling within 2 years of graduation (and he had his shot at 22 months instead of 18 months because of a very serious illness he was suffering). And to the poster who mentioned that children could have something in them that predisposes them to develop Autism after the shot, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Same as someone who smokes and doesn’t develop lung cancer vs. the other smoker who does develop lung cancer.


          My son is very similar to yours. He regressed after seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease as a toddler. Do you think it would have better if he had actually died?

          So your child regressed after the MMR? Interesting. Can you please tell if the MMR causes more seizures than measles?


            I’m sorry, I’m not talking seizures. I’m talking Autism.


            Seizures cause neurological damage. Because of that massive seizure my son did not learn to speak, he was permanently damaged. As an adult he has many autistic characteristics, including stim behaviours. In fact the autistic kids in his special ed. preschool did better than he did.

            Measles causes encephalitis in one out of a thousand cases. Many times this brings on permanent neurological damage like deafness, blindness, mental retardation and other issues. So the question remains: what causes more seizures? Measles or the MMR? Be sure to provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable reliable researchers to support your statements.

            Also, the MMR vaccine has been used in the USA since 1971. The USA is much larger than the UK, and was using the MMR for over twenty years before Wakefield’s now retracted case series on twelve children was published. Surely he had evidence that something was happening in a large country that had used it for so long… so where is it? Where is the documentation dated before 1990 that MMR caused autism in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s?


          Sorry, you are plain wrong about the MMR vaccine…or any other vaccine…and/or the ingredients in vaccines…causing autism.

          You need to get beyond your misplaced grief and blame for your child’s autism and find parents and advocates to develop programs for your adult children after they “age-out” of high school. You could start here:


            Actually, I am more worried that Ms. Forster-Dennis thinks kids would be better dead than autistic.


            Amazing how couch “professionals” can make such definite statements.


            Chris, I’m glad I don’t know you, or I hope I don’t. What you wrote is just plain sick. Something a troll would post.


            That is rich coming from someone who said: “Yes it is tragic that she lost her son however, I experience grief every day that my son (20) expresses such sadness that he doesn’t have friends, a girlfriend, a job, how to drive, can’t live on his own, etc.:


            “Amazing how couch “professionals” can make such definite statements.”

            lilady is a former public health nurse. She had a son with multiple disorders who died during a massive seizure in his twenties. She grieves for him everyday. She was also participated changing how disabled persons were treated when there was still a Willowbrook Institution.

            She has explained this many times on the Respectful Insolence blog. You should go there and tell everyone why they are so wrong. It will make you very popular.

            By the way, it was because of her recommendation that I read The Willowbrook Wars: Bringing the Mentally Disabled into the Community. Perhaps you should try reading it. It might open your mind.


            Chris! Sadness as in suicidal sadness which he has attempted due to how miserable he feels about things no matter how I try to help him move forward. Try going thru life afraid e.v.e.r.y. s.i.n.g.l.e. d.a.y. that your child/young adult is going to commit suicide because he can’t handle the way he’s sometimes treated. He’s been in and out of psychiatric hospitals and his earliest suicide attempt was age 7.

            And seizures do NOT for a fact ALWAYS cause neurological damage. My husband has Grand-Mal seizures due to his epilepsy, has even fallen off of scaffolds he was climbing up, and he has not suffered neurological damage. How do I know? Same as you would, medical tests.

            My son has absence seizures due to his autism and yet he’s never suffered neurological damage from them.

            And for what it’s worth, I’m sorry for your family for your son’s seizure, I didn’t see it mentioned in any of the comments before now. I know how devastating they are to watch and then have to relive the memories again and again. And with your son having suffered permanent damage, I wish the best for your family.


              Diane Forster-Dennis: You are claiming that your dually diagnosed child was “damaged” by a vaccine. He’s 20 years old and also has a psychiatric disorder, in addition to a seizure disorder.

              Why haven’t you made a claim on his behalf for a vaccine injury before the United States Court of Federal Claims (Vaccine Court)?

              And, your proof, in the form of any research paper, published in a first-tier, peer reviewed journal is …..?


            My gosh Chris, never mind. One more interesting thing about this is how very rude pro-vaccine folks can be. Stereo-type maybe but you sure fit the profile. I wasn’t rude to you before but that’s over… I still feel ache for your family but now I also feel ache for your attitude, you must be a very unhappy person.


              I don’t see any rude comments by pro-vaccine posters here.

              You, on OTH, have yet to apologize to the mother whose child died from meningitis, for crude crass remark.


            “He’s been in and out of psychiatric hospitals and his earliest suicide attempt was age 7.”

            This is not a typical autism characteristic. To be truthful, you never mentioned the other mental health issues. And, yes, I know a family who has a child who is both autistic and has a bipolar disorder (the latter is just like his mother, and yes he has been the state mental health hospital). Tell us, has you son suddenly decided he wants to be a woman. Because that is what their twenty-two year old autistic kid with bipolar disorder has decided. Their six foot tall child has decided to change. Fortunately the mom, the same one that is bipolar, has a very good sense of humor (and found better medication so she is no longer taking sledge hammers to keyboards).


              She’s a lost cause Chris; just another anti-vaxxer who wallows in self-pity, because her child has special needs.


            “My son has absence seizures due to his autism and yet he’s never suffered neurological damage from them”

            If you met one person who has seizures, you have met one person who has seizures. Also what kind of tests did the neurologist order? Because the sleep EEGs are a real pain in the posterior. You keep the kid awake most of the night, then you have to drive him to the medical center/hospital, negotiate the annoying hospital parking garage, gently put the sleeping toddler into a stroller, roll him up to the office… all while sleep deprived… only to have him wake up and not want to sleep for the EEG! AARGH! And I really needed a nap.

            You cannot generalize. One of the kids in my son’s special ed. preschool started to have seizures when he was three years old. His were special, they caused him to stop breathing. Tell us how that is a good thing.

            Neurology is complicated. There are kids who have “absence seizures” that are not harmless. Then there are those where the seizures only occur during sleep, like with Landau-Kleffner Syndrome. That syndrome literally steals language in their sleep.

            Now, again, tell us what causes more neurological damage, with or without seizures: measles or the MMR? Just provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers to support your claims.

            And where is that verifiable documentation that the MMR vaccine started to cause autism in the USA when it was introduced in 1971?


            Says lilady… “She’s a lost cause Chris; just another anti-vaxxer who wallows in self-pity, because her child has special needs.” …

            Nice lilady, more insults from a pro-vaxxer. More proof that some pro-vaxxers refuse to consider anything other than their own opinion and that some pro-vaxxers adamantly believe that anyone who doesn’t agree with their opinion is a “lost cause” and “wallows in self-pity”.

            Shame there isn’t a vaccine for that…


              You’re upset because I called you out for your nasty comment directed at a mother whose child died from a vaccine-preventable-disease and the blatant lies you’ve posted about your child’s medical history.

              (Anecdotal, but true)

              An older cousin was left with lifelong neurological sequelae from measles encephalitis and a childhood friend died from polio, before vaccines were developed to prevent these deadly diseases. I’ve stood at bedside in a pediatric ICU unit, comforting parents whose young infant succumbed to pertussis.

              I was employed as a public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist who investigated individual cases, clusters and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable-diseases and I’ll continue to speak out about you and other crank anti-vaxxers who spread their colossal ignorance about vaccines and the serious, oftentimes deadly, diseases they prevent.


            Blatant lies lilady? Oh my gosh, you just continue. How in the world do you know what my son’s medical history is? I guess I’ve been spreading lies about my family and about our support groups, etc. for almost 10 years now at my website (care to check up on me again? Oh well, enjoy your life lilady although it sounds like it must be pretty miserable. Sad…


              Yes, you tell lies about your son’s onset of autism, here on this same thread. You’ve provided us with his medical history of a severe seizure disorder with anoxia, which is not associated with any vaccine he received. You’re grasping at straws with your ignorant not-based-in-science “medical” opinions about his antenatal history and multiple medical problems because….something…something….something….must have caused his autism and his psychiatric diagnoses.

              The only source you linked to for information about vaccines and autism is crank anti-vaccine blogger and author David Kirby:


              BTW, you claim that you are in the process of filing a claim in the Vaccine Court for your son’s dual autism and psychiatric disorders. Has the attorney you consulted advised you that the Vaccine Court is NOT a welfare program to support those born with autism?

              I viewed your link to your website and your MLM schemes, including “natural supplements”; you’re just a scam artist who is using credulous parents to sell bogus treatments and cures.


            “BTW, you claim that you are in the process of filing a claim in the Vaccine Court for your son’s dual autism and psychiatric disorders. Has the attorney you consulted advised you that the Vaccine Court is NOT a welfare program to support those born with autism?”

            Also, has the attorney advised her of the NVICP filing deadlines:

            What are the filing deadlines for claims filed with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)?

            To be eligible for compensation, claims must be filed within the following periods:

            For injury claims: within 3 years after the first symptom or manifestation of onset or of the significant aggravation of the injury; or…


          You have two children diagnosed with ASDs and you claim your 20 year old son was injured by the MMR vaccine?

          Have you made a claim on his behalf before the United States Court of Federal Claims (Vaccine Court)? Why haven’t you?

          I bet you support the disgraced and discredited former medical doctor Andrew Wakefield, whose medical license was revoked due to the egregious harm he visited on the children in his “study”.

          Care to provide us with any study/research paper published in a first-tier, peer-reviewed medical or science journal that supports your claim that MMR vaccine (or any other vaccine) is implicated in the onset of autism.

          Your nasty comment directed at a mom whose child died of meningitis before a vaccine was developed at available, speaks volumes about you as a person.



            Actually I don’t support him. I don’t support anyone who lies in their research; that’s as bad as blindly believing in big pharma.


              Diane Forster-Dennis,
              Although I’m placing this as a reply to you, it really is a larger question. It just sort of happens to fit here in the conversation. I hope you don’t mind.

              We’ve established that Big Pharma is not making much money on the vast majority of vaccines, which is why companies simply wouldn’t bother to produce it if they had to contend with all the lawsuits (some frivolous, and maybe some are not).

              So why are they involved? Why not just have the gov’t manufacture them directly? Why not take the corporations out of it altogether? Then no one would have to trust Big Pharma about vaccines at all.


            No claims made because when my son was at that age I had no idea there was any such thing. I am in the process of contacting a vaccine attorney (if that’s how they’re referred to) here in Seattle to explore it further.

            The rudeness was in Chris stating that I want children to die. That’s just plain sick to say that.


            And FYI, I did provide a link in one of my other posts here that will take you directly to court paperwork between the government and the Poling family; their daughter contracted Autism after her shots. And to stave off any medical questions, her mom is a doctor as well.


            I already replied to your comment about the Hannah Poling case which you linked to with David Kirby’s column on the Huffington Post.

            Hannah received compensation from the Vaccine Court for encephalitis…not autism and her mother Terry Poling is a registered nurse and an attorney.


            Hi gewisn – no worries :o) I wasn’t aware that it had been established that Big Pharma isn’t making much money, where is that information? I missed that.

            My guess on your question as to why the government doesn’t manufacture the shots themselves is that the government doesn’t have the money to do it with our national debt being what it is. And honestly, I wouldn’t trust them anymore than Big Pharma.

            Again I’ve been through a lot of medical stuff where doctors have been so wrong that my son would have died if I hadn’t have stayed on top of the doctor. I learned when he was 15 months old to never again blindly accept a doctor’s answer (or even a pharmacist because one missed a combination of medications that would have given my son seizures).

            They did so many terrible things to him when he had KD thinking it was this or that but they were wrong. At one point they gave him two huge anti-biotic shots, one in each thigh, and he stopped breathing right there on the table in the doctor’s office. He had a spinal tap as well.

            Another time he was so dehydrated from illness that they stabbed both hands, both feet, and a few other areas to try to draw blood. The doctor refused to hospitalize him to rehydrate him. The nurse called upstairs and the head person of the entire medical facility told the doctor flat out to hospitalize my son. This was all when he was 13 to 17 months old.

            I can’t blindly trust any of them any longer. I’ve had too many experiences where they didn’t know what they were doing and would give me incorrect diagnoses.

            He went for an entire year with massive ear infections before the pediatrician would finally agree to tubes. Someone from outside my home suggested I tell the pediatrician to use a tympanogram (sp?) on his ears. I told the doctor to and he said no. I told him again and he did. His exact words: “hmmm, he does need tubes”! After an entire year of doctor appointments for infected ears. He ended up with four different sets and now has permanent T-tubes in there.

            So no matter the “argument” (vaccines or whatever else it might be about) I never blindly trust “professionals” anymore.

            I’m hoping I answered your questions but if not please let me know and I’ll try again. :o) Again thank you for being so kind!


              I agree. There are so many doctors out there that feel they know it all – when everbody knows nobody can.


    Agent 666 refers to being the agent of the devil. Don’t know how 666 came to stand for the devil.


      666 is from the New Testament Book of Revelation (= Apocalypse in the Roman Catholic version). Most likely, it was the numerical value of some name, as both Greek and Hebrew letters doubled as numbers (A=1, B=2, etc.).

    mahdi Soodavari June 2, 2014 at 6:46 pm

    in my country,Iran, is a sever low about vaccination and it’s free of charge for every one. and It’s the first time I here that some people in U.S are anti-vaccination!!!! in Pakistan radical Islamist groups, like al Qaeda, are against vaccination, and said It’s for making children non- Muslim!!! an idea that was in my country 100 years ago. but nowadays no one is against vaccination. It’s really surprise me that there are anti-vaccination groups! these groups could easily see what’s going on in some counties like Pakistan and African countries where there is no effective vaccination systems. and as a psychologist, I say that autism is based on prenatal events not vaccination.


    Disgusting. You can be ignorant, but when I have children I will not fill them with 49 shots of filth. This industry, assault on infants and their developing immune systems is horrid and has gotten so out of control you should all be assamed. Study the natural progression of these diseases, how many vaccinated children still become infected, the rise in so many “other” illineses, etc. There is more evidence of wrong doing, deceit, even deaths to justify signifant concern. Your children deserve more than for you to blindly believe what the medical/pharma industry is telling you.


      Anonymous, please explain why vaccines are an assault on the immune system. I’m especially interested in why wild measles and polio viruses are not assaults on the immune system, far more dangerous than the vaccines.


      “There is more evidence of wrong doing, deceit, even deaths to justify signifant concern.”

      Oh, do please tell. In other words: citation needed.

      confusedbylogic June 2, 2014 at 11:56 pm

      Good for you. Stand up for what you believe, whether it makes any sense or not.

      You will have plenty of time to explain it to your kids since they can’t get into the schools in your district without vaccination, because, well, others’ parents read the biology book in High School.


      You need to back up and realize that if my baby dies from whooping cough because you’re ignorant that makes you a MURDERER!!!!


      Thank you Anonymous! Isn’t it amazing how pro-vaccinators are so incredibly rude to those of us who are concerned about the vaccines whereas we are not mean or rude to them?


        I asked you a question. How was that rude?

        I have a now adult child who as a toddler had a massive seizure from a now vaccine preventable disease. This caused permanent neurological damage. This is why I want to know which causes more seizures: the vaccine or the disease?

        At least I did not say it was better that a child was dead instead of autistic like you told patty augeri. How could you say that? Have you never lost a close loved one to death? It leaves a permanent hole of longing in your heart.

        You have your son. He may be disabled, and you will need to make sure there is a guardian trust to take care of him when you are gone. But he is alive. My son is disabled, and I grieve at the thought of his dying (and he almost did due to his genetic heart disorder). He will never live on his own.

        Take joy in what your son is! Stop mourning the child you imagined, but look for the joy that is him. Stop thinking all about yourself, and think about that it is your child.


        “Ignorant”, “assault”, “wrongdoing”, “deceit”. And you complain pro-vaccination people are incredibly rude. I think there is a comprehension problem here, because I think that’s pretty rude, especially from someone too chicken to use a name.


        Isn’t it amazing how anti-vaccinators tell people whose children are dead that that’s not significant and that living with a disabled child is so much worse than having your child die? Isn’t it also amazing how they completely deny all evidence contrary to their opinions and ignore their disabled children and refuse to accep them as they are because they grieve what they could have been? I apologize if we seem rude because we want children to live, whereas you seem to think they would be better off dead.


    For several years I have been following the anti-vax movement. It started with me getting a flue shot 6 years ago. For almost a year I was getting weak to my bones, and just ached after the shot. When I was in working a summer in the Med I stilled followed to topic, but with European sources. The results were about the same when testing was done on what was in most vaccines: anything(including mercury). There was a Scottish medical institution that received the same vaccine from all the planet, and it’s contents varied tremendously. The truth is that the old thoughts about vaccines need to be reevaluated. In the U.S. big pharma has the Food & Drug Administration bought, and drugs get approval without proper testing which normally could take years. Just look whoever the administration is puts into authority over it.
    A news article last week in the U.S. reported a “Measles Outbreak in the U.S.” It turns out there were 20 cases, and after further research over half of those cases were immigrants. Should we figure out what percentage 20 cases are out 310 million people(2010 census)? Do you really think mass produced vaccines for 310+ million can be safe? There are many puzzling things happening in medicine these days. Take the anti-biotic resistant bacteria & viruses for just an example. Also, seriously look at the total number of injections newborns are given. I travel for a living, and have been in the Caribbean, Costa Rica & Equator for the last 6 months feeling great. I was even in St. Maartin during a Dengue Fever outbreak. It’s proven that a good diet really helps. As for taking another vaccine…I believe I’ll just wait till the measles/whooping cough, whatever the “Outbreak” is something to be concerned with. Don’t hate me for my choice, but is after all, mine.


      There is so much here that could be commented upon; but I will stick to one thing.

      “There are many puzzling things happening in medicine these days. Take the anti-biotic resistant bacteria and viruses for just an example.”

      Ok. Well, viruses have always been antibiotic resistant. I won’t go into explaining it here, but you ought to have learned about it around the eighth grade. Drug-resistant bacteria are not puzzling. In a nutshell, they have largely been created by misuse of antibiotics. This misuse includes, but is not limited to: People who begin a round of antibiotics and stop taking them before the round is complete because they feel better; the bacteria is not completely gone, however and therefore learns resistance to the drug. People who demand antibiotics from their doctors (and will “doctor-hop” and lie about symptoms to get the drugs they are convinced they need) for illnesses such as viruses. There are many studies out there that can explain the development of drug-resistant bacteria far than this meager post. Find them and read them. You will no longer be puzzled on the topic.


        Ok, so much for me being a little vague. It’s the number of resistant bacteria and viruses. There are 2 that are not even treatable. I would have to find you another link for those. Just know hospitals are terrified of them. Have a read from the CDC:

        As for the vaccines, some would argue(with all sorts of facts & numbers) that they cause more people to get sick. I could find tons of links, or just Google it.


          “As for the vaccines, some would argue(with all sorts of facts & numbers) that they cause more people to get sick. I could find tons of links, or just Google it.”

          You made that ridiculous statement and it is up to you to provide some of those “tons of links”, to back up your statement.

      confusedbylogic June 3, 2014 at 12:51 am

      “Don’t hate me for my choice, but is after all, mine.”

      Is it? No one else is affected?


        confusedbylogic: when I am sick and affecting others you will be right. Until then it’s logically a mute point.

          confusedbylogic June 3, 2014 at 8:10 am

          And how many times have you passed on a vaccine-preventable disease to someone with a compromised immune system, and didn’t even know it? Do those people at the grocery store, or the mall, or your kids’ school get a say in it?


            Never. I’m tested annually as I am a professional chef feeding billionaires. I am required to maintain an expected level of clean health. Can you say the same? I am in the markets all over dealing with the freshest, and highest quality food I can obtain. I have been doing this for 18 years. I just had a refresher coarse in the Galapagos of Darwin. Not everybody makes it. Accept it. Putting all of your faith in a corrupt medical profession is your choice. Here are a few links to read, and ponder. They are very easily researchable.
            This list the 49 vaccines administered before age 6: Might I suggest having a broader world outlook than what MSNBC/CNN/whatever is trying to call news. George Bush Sr. signed on to this, and every president/prime minister across the globe has also signed since it was implemented in Brazil(1992). You might be interested in learning what is really going on, and what our leaders are saying “YES” to. It’s a global thing really. Fact check till your hearts content. Just don’t reply with a dumb/smart reply for I can shred it to bits if you didn’t fact check anything. This next is a rather plain video on You-Tube that explains why you, your life, and 90% of the the world’s populace need to be removed with the U.N.’s plan. It’s factual, and can be sourced back to a U.N. summit in 1992 that the U.S. government agreed to with most 1st world countries.. It should be news, but is like Fukishima .


              Anecdote is not evidence, but another point towards my claim antivax cranks regret that their loss of opportunity to show off their Badass Immune Systems. If we could bring back measles and polio, their organic food and healthy lifestyle, not to mention charm and good looks, will protect them, while lesser folk who ate at McDonalds die.

              Little surprise that there is overlap between antivax and HIV-AIDS denialist groups.


              What are you blathering on about? You’re a chef and you get “tested every year”?

              Health care workers who have exposure to vulnerable populations in health care settings get “tested” for immunity against vaccine-preventable-diseases BEFORE they are hired. If those health care workers do not have immunity against those vaccine-preventable-diseases, they are vaccinated against them, before they ever have patient contact. And, they are not tested every year for immunities against those diseases. Health care workers should also get a Tdap booster vaccine and yearly seasonal influenza vaccines



      You obviously have no read the details of the multiple measles outbreaks in the United States. Those outbreaks were caused by “imported cases” i.e. the importation of measles by deliberately non-vaccinated Americans who traveled to areas of the world where measles is endemic, became infected in foreign countries and returned to the USA to infect other deliberately non-vaccinated Americans and/or babies too young to have received the 2-dose MMR vaccine (starting at age one).

      Get your facts straight before you post here.


        It’s the Natural News, but has links to share:
        “and they went forward voluntary”…
        Chris your a troll.
        “</b?Therefore do not hire Randal” Seriously a shout out in bold?Look outside the U.S. for answers to problems. Have you ever gone more than a couple of days without fluoridated water?
        Lilady take all the shots. When the new vaccine for the newest plague arises take that 4 month old new vaccine also. It will be what the FDA says to do.
        Good luck. I hope we never find out who is right because either way people will have suffered.


          You don’t get it, do you? Perhaps you would also like to call Andrew Lazarus a troll for saying: “Why, I disagree. This is more like pointing out that since actress Dominique Dunne (Dominick Dunne’s daughter) was killed by a chef, Randal is likely to be a murderer.”

          You cannot prove a vaccination bad by claiming something that is only tangentially related has issues. If we could do that then we can assume you could also be a murderer because another chef killed a person.

          You need to actually provide verifiable evidence that particular vaccine causes enough harm that it poses more of a risk than the actual disease. So just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that a vaccine causes more harm than the disease. Do not post articles from a someone who peddles both dubious nostrums and spam software.

          “I hope we never find out who is right because either way people will have suffered.”

          Like the folks who are now in the hospital from pneumonia due to measles in Ohio? Or the young college who had mumps recently, and may now be painfully sterile. Or the babies who have died from pertussis? Or the pregnant women who got H1N1 a few years ago and died.


            So where’s the verifiable evidence that vaccines are not “bad”? You want me to blindly believe big pharma when they say the vaccines aren’t bad, the same guys that make the big bucks for pumping this stuff into people? You want me to believe the CDC when they say the vaccines aren’t bad, the same government that we can’t believe about so very many things? The proof that all pro-vax’ers “pull out” isn’t any more verifiable than evidence “pulled out” by anti-vax’ers. There are plenty of medical personnel that say it doesn’t cause it but there’s also information that they do/can cause it. Just because you choose to accept what they say doesn’t mean I have to.


              It’s right here. If you ever bothered to do actual research, you would know this. These are all peer-reviewed studies. By the way, since I’m sure you don’t know, peer-review means that independent, unbiased, educated specialists in that field of study tear a paper to bits looking for inaccuracies or bad technique. It’s a very rigorous process where you actually have to prove things and gasp not lie! you might want to try it out.



    FACT: 1 in 1.5 million (20 total) people contracted measles in California this last year. FACT: 1 in 68 children show signs of Autism by 2 years old after 24 required vaccinations – TWENTY FOUR, NOT COUNTING MIXES LIKE MMR. I understand there is no scientific proof vaccinations cause Autism, but there is zero proof of what does. As a parent of an Autistic child, I wish I never did vaccinate my children or at least spread them out over far more years. If your are a betting person, where would you place your chips. For those that lay on vaccination, first live with the fact that measles and other illnesses are recoverable for most. Autism is a life long disability and sadness. Understand your child will NEVER have real friends, NEVER get married, NEVER have children, may never hold down a job, land may never be able to support themselves. Not much of a life to live. Think about that hard before you judge others and their choices. Until you walk in my shoes, you only live in glass houses.


      And sixty just this year, and that data is from less than a year! Please, if you are going to try to make a point, try to make it with accurate data.

      If you want to make the argument that the MMR vaccine causes autism, provide the evidence that it started to cause autism when it was introduced in the USA in 1971. Really, just provide us the verifiable documentation that levels of autism rose in concordance to use of the MMR vaccine, which was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination Program.

      “For those that lay on vaccination, first live with the fact that measles and other illnesses are recoverable for most.”

      What level of death and disability are you willing to accept? About one in five get pneumonia (the most common cause of measles death), and one in a thousand get encephalitis which can result in blindness, deafness, mental retardation and death. So you are cool with one out of a thousand dying, and several more becoming permanently disabled. Read The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review.

      “Autism is a life long disability and sadness.”

      From personal experience due to losing a mother when I was eleven: so is death.

      I have a child who had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease (autism is not the only disability that affects kids). So please provide the PubMed indexed studies from qualified reputable researchers that seizures occur more often with vaccines than with the diseases.

      “Understand your child will NEVER have real friends, NEVER get married, NEVER have children, may never hold down a job, land may never be able to support themselves”

      Citation needed. Because I know a few who are married with kids, and there are several blogs of those who are married, have kids and hold down jobs. They are doing okay, and even have an autism advocacy group.


      This is so NOT true about people with autism. It’s parents who hold back their autistic children that prevent them from leading “normal” lives. I’ve worked with many autistic people who are educated, hold down well paying jobs and love in affluent communities and are married with children of their own. There are even some extremely gifted autistic people out there (like Jacob Barnett – google him it may give you onsite and hope for your own child). There have been more recent studies linking autism to genetics and possibly EXTERNAL environmental pollutants. I will look for the citations and post accordingly. Don’t be fooled by a former porn star who used her fame to spread the lies about autism and vaccines. I’ve known children who are NOT vaccinated and have autism and know children who demonstrate signs of autism BEFORE their first birthday (the MMR vaccine is at 12 months). Do your research OUTSIDE the Internet and please, for the sake of your child, find a good therapist who will work with your autistic child’s strengths and help him thrive instead of holding him back because you “believe” autistic children can’t lead a “normal” life. Shame on a parent who can’t accept their child for WHO they are. :(


        If you worked with autistic children you should know there is a spectrum and many will not lead “normal” lives and that has nothing to do with parenting. I worked at a school for developmentally disabled children for 10 years and EVERY parent at the school I worked at shared that their child was developing normally until being vaccinated. It doesn’t take a genius to to see that children are being over vaccinated. Now days they get 3 and 4 vaccines at one time. 30 years ago this was not only unheard of but warned against.


          “I worked at a school for developmentally disabled children for 10 years and EVERY parent at the school I worked at shared that their child was developing normally until being vaccinated.”

          That is a remarkable statistic. Did you gather up all of the stories, confirm them with the children’s medical care providers and write it up as a case series?

          You should really share the results of your study at Thinking Person’s guide to Autism. That is run by a parents, autistic persons and others who do not think that vaccines are a cause. They would be very interested about where you worked, and that 100% if the children were affected by vaccines.


      Oh and Einstein was autistic. Think about that for a moment, and ask yourself…do you think HE was vaccinated???? Ummm…no!


      try working with your kid. i’m married to an autistic man and know many more. once again VACCINES DID NOT CAUSE AUTISM. it’s a genetic mutation. it happens, just like heart disease and cancer, get over it and help them


      I have 2 autistic children; 1 is classed as severely so. It is likely that, yes, my daughter may never get married or have children of her own, and she may require placement in an assisted-living facility when she’s older. However, she is a generally happy, well-behaved, funny little girl with a lovely sense of humour, and she brings me joy in much greater measures than sadness. More importantly: SHE is happy and healthy, and I would be a terrible parent if I hadn’t had her vaccinated, and she’d developed a life-threatening illness as a result.

      Also, my son may well get married and have kids, and it’s very likely he’ll live independently and have some sort of job–perhaps even a career. He’s a clever little boy, and everyone always remarks on how friendly and upbeat he is; most people tell me how beautiful both of my children are, as well. Maybe my kids are older than yours, and I’m have more time to adjust/my kids have matured more than yours, but for whatever reason, I’m not seeing this life of eternal sadness and drudgery you describe.

      My kids face numerous challenges, including many that “neurotypical” (whatever that means) children don’t have to face; and yet, my 2 are happier than a lot of kids I’ve met, throughout my life.

      Maybe the secret is in whether or not the parents accept and love the children for who they are, instead of wishing they were different.


        I for one don’t wish my son was “different” as I enjoy him every day and he’s shown me many ways to look at the world that I wouldn’t have otherwise. It’s extremely fortunate that your one child will go on and be able to achieve the things you’ve laid out, and that your daughter is happy. But, as is mentioned often, you’ve met one child with Autism you’ve met one child with Autism. I don’t wish my son to be different, I wish my son to be happy. If that’s mowing someone’s lawn so be it. Other things I want for him: a girlfriend, guy friends, a job that he can handle but that also can meet all of his grandiose dreams, a home, a family, the ability to drive, etc. He wants all of this but I can’t give it to him, he has to achieve it himself. I support him 100% in what he wants to do but sadly my support won’t do it for him. And his cognitive abilities won’t do it either, at least for many many years. I don’t want him different unless wanting him to be happy means I want him to be different.


          In fairness, I’ve met about 30 kids with autism (through my kids’ school and a playgroup they used to attend) as well as at least 10 adults with Autistic Spectrum Disorders (several of whom are friends or family members). Of those individuals, half of the adults are currently in gainful employment, and all but 1 of those employed are also married/partnered with children. 2 of those who are not in gainful employment are married/partnered, and 1 of them also has children. If I had to guess, I’d say that about half of the children (or slightly more) will reach adulthood with a good chance of marriage, children, and some sort of job or career.

          In a similar vein: I know *at least* 2 dozen non-autistic adults who are currently struggling to find work and/or maintain romantic relationships, and more who *have* struggled in the past. It seems to me that, going by what I know, having an ASD has much less of an effect on one’s prospects than many, many other factors.

          Autism alone is not as high a risk factor for misery as you seem to think it is; I urge you to focus on your son’s more troubling issues, and get him the required counselling (and probably medication) that might make so much of a difference to his quality of life. There’s no shame in his having a mental illness; but trying to blame it on a condition that so many people have learned to take in their stride, really does do him a disservice. It does the rest of us dealing with ASD a disservice, as well.

          I know I don’t know everyone in the world with ASD; but the only individuals with ASD that I personally know, who also struggle with suicidal ideation, are either those who don’t have the appropriate support networks in place, or who also have severe mental illness. You can make sure that the former, at least, doesn’t apply to your son. I wish you good luck.


      Thank you Ian, I fully agree. I wish I had spaced them way out and/or not gotten them at all for my kids as well. The folks that haven’t been affected by Autism don’t get it and sadly I don’t think they ever will. I’ve read also that people with Down’s Syndrome actually fare better in life than those on the Autism spectrum. There’s so much that people that haven’t been affected by it don’t understand (and some who probably don’t care to understand).


    If you were a betting man, would you place your chips on something with less than 1 in a million chances of actually happening ? I think not.

    Yet, even 15 years ago, reputable studies from the UK showed that the chance that autism was related to measles or MMR vaccine, if such a link existed, was no more than 1 in 750,000 and could be as low as 1 in 1.5 million. Since then even more studies have been completed with the same conclusion and taken together these studies support the view that if their is a risk it is so small that it is indistinguishable from zero risk

    Lyne Marie Larocque June 3, 2014 at 10:45 am

    You forgot to mention that small white or pink little coffins are big business too… as big as Big Pharma bucks.
    Great article. Thanks for writing this.


    Wow…Very frustrating!!
    -It’s impossible to convince people who don’t believe in science to believe in science.
    – It’s impossible to convince the math illiterate that lotteries and gambling are actually a tax on those bad at math.
    – It’s impossible to convince the high school drop-out that maybe homeschooling isn’t the best choice for their kids
    – Some people try to get nutrients from eating the sun instead of food
    -Some also think they are smarter than the experts who are highly educated and believe there is an active conspiracy against the uneducated by academia and corporations.
    They instead turn to the internet where people sell them sham theories to take advantage of them even more. I too believe there are some things science can’t explain – but this one is really a no brainer – and — It’s fine — It’s their choice to make – The problem is when parents uninformed decisions based on junk science impact those who I love — I have a serious problem…My kids are immunized. Why? Because I’ve read the statistics and literally millions of children are alive today in North America due to immunization (not to mention the rest of the world). Do parents have the right to hand the “Darwin award baton” off to their children? What’s going to happen when the offspring of one of these “too-cool-for-school” folks who don’t believe in immunization – e.g. Bring their kids on a yoga retreat in India and come back with an undetected case of polio, measles etc. and unknowingly pass it off to some poor kid with Leukemia or HIV that couldn’t be immunized. (FYI this is hypothetical I have no proof this ever occurred)
    – Is it their fault?
    – Is there no guilt?
    – Can they be sued by the parents of the impacted child?
    Probably not, those incapable of comprehending their actions are not typically culpable.
    What I can say is this:
    I’m glad I live in Ontario, Canada where, when it’s really important to the “greater good”, we protect people from those making uninformed choices and take real action against those who “choose” not to vaccinate. We do this in order to protect those who cannot be immunized for serious medical reasons. In Ontario if you choose not to vaccinate your kids – They can be excluded from school. This is the penalty paid by your children for you not being a “team player” and not buying into the widely proven “herd immunity” theory.
    Of course, Ontarians are not completely heartless. We want to give all children the opportunity to be more educated than their parents. To accommodate this if you happen to be a religious fundamentalist or anti-vax zealot you can sign a sworn affidavit stating you have “Sincerely held convictions based on religion or conscience” notarized by a public notary, judge or lawyer. Even if you sign this affidavit you do so with the understanding that – “I understand that section 12 of the Act provides that the Medical Officer of Health may order that the above named pupil be excluded from school if there is an outbreak or immediate risk of an outbreak of a designated disease” — Here’s the form – It’s the real deal –$File/4897-64E.pdf

    This is a touchy subject on freedoms. I personally believe when your decisions impact other people it is responsibility of government to legislate against the damage you may potentially inflict on your fellow citizens. — We have done that in Ontario – This is what happens when medical professionals & government instead of big drug companies and insurance run the system – It is no conspiracy – It’s common sense!

    If your district, state, province, fiefdom, parish etc. does not provide your children with similar legislated protection. I encourage everyone to site Ontario as an example and get their provincial or state legislatures to get the ball rolling – It’s more important to protect your kids than the freedoms of the uninformed to make “choices”.


    Of course, if you want to inject heavy metals into kids brains, before they even have a blood-brain barrier, go ahead. 95%+ of parents do.

    Of course, if you want to intentionally inject disease causing germs in kids, go ahead. Give them 5 diseases at once with a 5-in-1 vaccine.

    Of course, if the vaccines worked, they wouldn’t need the heavy metals (aluminum, mercury) to provoke an immune response (antibodies).

    Of course, if they provided vitamins and minerals (vitamins A, C, D, minerals zinc and selenium) the proper immune response (antibodies) would be created without heavy metals.

    Of course, the reason for the vaccines is to prevent childhood death among very young children, who do not have a developed immune system to create sufficient antibodies, and deaths from infectious disease are not reduced among young children.

    Of course, you never eradicate these infectious diseases as long as you inject a little bit of them into kids. Vaccine-derived infection is not disclosed as a risk to parents.

    Of course, only `1 in 200 who are ever exposed to polio actually ever develop poliomyelitis, so the vaccine can’t work in better than one-half of 1% of the kids. Now if the rate of vaccine-derived polio is higher than one-half of 1%, then the vaccine becomes the leading cause of the disease. This is what has happened in Africa and some parts of India. Polio vaccination represents a massive over-vaccination program. Public hygiene and clean water will do more to quell polio than any vaccination program.

    Of course, if you like I decide to keep your kids well nourished with supplemental vitamin A, C, D, E, zinc, they will not be as prone to infectious disease.

    When you children get sick and develop a fever or a rash, simply raise the amounts of vitamin C, D, zinc, elderberry syrup to control the fever and let the disease run its course to develop natural antibodies, that provide long-lasting immunity while the vaccines provide temporary immunity and re-inoculation is required.

    Bill Sardi


      These are bizarre statements even by anti-vax standards. I don’t think you know very much about vaccines. For example, you say, “if the vaccines worked, they wouldn’t need the heavy metals (aluminum, mercury) to provoke an immune response (antibodies).” Is it your understanding that thimerosal was included in vaccines to stimulate an immune response? You might want to do some reading on that one.

      Also, you claim that “if they provided vitamins and minerals (vitamins A, C, D, minerals zinc and selenium) the proper immune response (antibodies) would be created without heavy metals.” Are you saying that vitamins and minerals will create antibodies on their own? How exactly does that work? I’d love to hear either a detailed explanation or just get a link to some research supporting your claim.

      Incidentally, you push vitamins and minerals pretty hard as an alternative to vaccines. How are sales of Purity’s Perfect Multivitamin going, Mr. Sardi?


    Id love to reply to the thread of comments I began, but man have there been a lot of posts on this topic. I didn’t realize the turf war here in the immunization world. I did my research when my daughter was born and made my very personal, parental decision about this for my daughter, given her immune system development, our family resources and the law in the state of Colorado. She is now a 12 year old healthy and loving young person.
    I have been attacked for my position, that still stands. Not one study or collection of studies could prove that vaccines lead to a lower incidence of the disease that they are vaccinating against. Before you freak out again you scientists, a few points.
    1,000 clinical trials could not prove a causal link between…..what are we talking about again……measels. Highlight CAUSAL……….at best, these trials can show a high correlation between vaccinating and fewer measels. The lab of human beingness and behavior are such that you cannot control for all the variables a person experiences in a given day, hour, second is my point. Even if you innoculate someone with measels vaccine, and follow them for the rest of their life, and they dont get measels, you have proven nothing. There could be a myriad of reasons that they did not get measels, one of those reasons could be, the vaccine. From reading the CDC paper on measels, it seems that washing your hands and such things might be a better way to not contract measels.
    My other points:
    Epidemiological data on many diseases has begun to show that with many of these kinds of virus’s the better way to look at them is by zipcode….or area of town. I am most familiar the work around HIV/AIDS. There are clear patterns to predicting incidence of this virus. One is risk behavior, and possibly the stronger one is socioeconomic status or race
    As to the ivory walls comment, this was my jab at scientist and researchers who wish they had the perfect experiment that would show causal relationship. Alas, when dealing with human beings. they cannot. This was also a jab at how vaccine research gets done and who’s money is in the pot that funds these research efforts. Let me tell you, it is Big Pharm……because the outcomes to this research directly benefit their bottom line…..oh and yeah they want to help people…..
    It appears there are radical nuts on either side of this issue…..vaccinators and non vaccinators. My father preached “everything in moderation” Vaccinating or not vaccinating your kid is a parent’s choice. So let them,
    Id love to see any the findings about the clusters in this country…..and what seems to correlate to the clusters, other than vaccine rates? Id like us to think differently, but the medical model by its very nature, sees every problem or symptom to be curable or solvable through medical intervention…its what they are trained to do…..


      I’d like to know how only washing your hands protects a baby too young to have been vaccinated against measles, from contracting the virus…which is contracted through airborne/droplet transmission?

      The rest of your comment (“risk behavior and socioeconomic statues”), is proof positive that you have not researched measles or any other vaccine-preventable-disease.


    Keen to educate myself to make an educated decision on vaccination.
    Can u please send me links to all the double blind crossover placebo studies carried out on the MMR & DPT Vaccines


      As you know, we don’t do double-blind trials that would involve exposing people to polio and other deadly diseases. We don’t do human double-blind trials on seat belts either; we use crash dummies.

      Almost 800,000 cases of measles in the USA in 1962. Incidence dropped to unheard-of low levels after vaccination. No other sensible explanation.


      Similar to the ones done in Tuskegee? Are you going to tell the parents their kid got a placebo MMR during a measles epidemic? Or would you lie and withhold that information and protection from measles like they did to those men in Tuskegee, who should have received antibiotics for their syphilis.


    To each his own. I know parents who claim their children were perfectly fine before they were vaccinated. It was after vaccinations that their children become very sick ranging from neurological disorders and autism. Again, to each his own. Free will choice in this world.


      Transmission of contagious diseases is not really a question of free choice, any more than spewing untreated pollutants into the air is an acceptable choice. It isn’t like car seats, where only your own kid dies. You are free-riding on those of us who do get vaccinated, and moreover turning your own kids into a bioweapon aimed at babies, AIDS patients, and the other immunocompromised.

      I note that regressive autism manifests not only around the time of shots, but the beginning of potty training. The parents remember the shots, but they forget their own acts at much the same time. How about if I start a movement that the current schedule of potty training is too much for toddler’s psychological systems, making them autistic? I have just about as much proof.


        The use of disposable diapers has skyrocketed. If you plot the prevalence of ASDs and the use of disposable diapers on a line graph, you’ll find that disposable diapers cause autism. :-)


        My son potty-trained HIMSELF before he was 2 years old. He did it on his own schedule, way before I expected it, so I guess that theory flies out the window huh?


          It’s rather sad you took my suggestion seriously. It was meant to show the gaping correlation/causation error in your argument.


            I was just being a smart-a** Andrew, I enjoyed the second half of your post and was making a smart-a** (but not in a mean way) follow-up comment to it. He did potty-train himself but again I was “harassing” (as in teasing) you. I only “harass” those I like though so no worries that I’ll “harass” you any longer after this comment from you.


      “It was after vaccinations that their children become very sick ranging from neurological disorders and autism.”

      When I have pressed for details on those cases, they get very fuzzy. The Cedillos also thought the vaccine caused harm to their daughter. Then they showed the baby videos in the Autism Omnibus proceedings, and it turned out their daughter was showing signs very early on:

      “Again, to each his own. Free will choice in this world.”

      If that were true, then there would not be any traffic laws, building codes, bank regulations, etc. In the USA you do not have to vaccinate, but there may be restrictions on where your child can attend school. Many private schools don’t care about vaccines, and there is the homeschooling option. All but two states will allow vaccine exemptions, but if there is an outbreak (like for chicken pox), they will require that your unvaxed child stay home, which can last for several weeks.

      Also, someone who was told to stay home when she had rubella decided to use her free will to meet Gene Tierney, who happened to be pregnant. Ms. Tierney’s daughter was born with several disabilities. Agatha Christie used that tragedy as a basis for her book The Mirror Crack’d from Side to Side.


        I don’t remember the Agatha Christie, but I remember from Tierney’s autobiography that years later the woman responsible saw Tierney at poolside (IIRC) and told her she was such a big fan she had snuck out of quarantine to meet her at an autograph signing. Free choice! Child lived in an institution; these mild diseases the Badass Immune Systems always boast they can conquer caused a lot of damage.

        confusedbylogic June 4, 2014 at 5:33 pm

        There are banking regulations??

        How can you tell?


          A few months ago we got a home equity loan to landscape the backyard. Lots of pieces of paper to sign with references to this law and that law.

          Now back to that backyard to weed it… though I have been sidetracked by cutting lavender flower spikes to dry. My hands smell very lovely.

    Gregori Olsen June 5, 2014 at 7:00 am

    The human rase as survived without for quite some time, why do we all of a sudden need it?
    Why should you/we inject kids with all sorts of stuff that out immune system is supposto fix?
    Yes everything CAN be leathal, but you can get in a car crash tomorro aswell.
    There are more cases than not were vaccins just lower the general immunsystem and kids that did not get vaccines generaly are alot less sick.
    Im not saying this is relevant in every situation ofc, got to africa you get a malaria vaccine, but the general normal stuff, atleast i wont get it for my kids.

    If we “can’t” survive as a rase unless we take pills for every little thing in the world were the hell are we than in 1000 years, our bodies will be totaly dependent on it and no longer be able to handle the most basic things unless we take a pill or shot for it.
    Talk about devolving as a rase.

    Excuse my english, its my 5th language.


      Gregori Olsen,
      First, let me say I’m very impressed with a 5th language.
      I’m often unsure I’m competent in one.

      If you’ll permit, I’d like to take your questions and claims one by one.

      1) “The human rase as survived without for quite some time, why do we all of a sudden need it? Why should you/we inject kids with all sorts of stuff that out immune system is supposto fix?”
      The ability to use our understanding of germs and contagious illness (through sanitation, clean water, and vaccines) has produced the majority of the health advances of the last 2 hundred years, because our immune systems often cannot fix these illnesses The race (the human species) did survive before that, with frequent horrific outbreaks and epidemics. Which of the millions of kids who now have access to immunizations would you like to consign to the suffering, sometimes lifelong disability, and sometimes death from the “stuff that our immune system is supposed to fix?”

      2) “There are more cases than not were vaccins just lower the general immunsystem and kids that did not get vaccines generaly are alot less sick.”
      Quite simply, that is wrong. If you read the links in Dr Raff’s article, you will see why that is not true. I remember a similar argument that was frequently heard in the 1960’s regarding seatbelts, “A guy I know was in an car wreck and only survived because he was thrown clear of the accident.” In fact, these UNverified stories were not as common as people thought, but the situation was unusual enough to prompt people to tell the story often. Also, telling the story prompts others who hear it to chime in if they know of a similar (also unverified) story. So telling the story makes you more likely to hear similar stories, without making them more statistically common.
      People telling telling stories in which no preventive effort was made and nothing bad happened does not mean the preventive effort (seat belts or vaccines) is useless. It just means you got lucky.

      3) “If we “can’t” survive as a rase unless we take pills for every little thing in the world were the hell are we than in 1000 years, our bodies will be totaly dependent on it and no longer be able to handle the most basic things unless we take a pill or shot for it.”
      What makes you think using vaccines makes us dependent?
      The alternative is that we let those with the less luck suffer horribly, become maimed or dead, so that only those with super immune systems will survive. By this logic, it would faster and more humane to test children for immune capacity very early and then euthanise those who might be susceptible to the pathogens we can now immunize against. At least that way they don’t have to suffer through the diseases you so blythely reference as “the general normal stuff.”
      I don’t think that is what you want for humanity, but it is the argument you are making: those with normal immune systems should not be protected.

      However, even that argument is false. It is not “weak” immune systems that we are saving with vaccination. It is everyone. Those who get sick with these pathogens are not weak. They are entirely normal. We like to think there is something superior among those who don’t get a sick in an epidemic, but really it is just a matter of luck.
      Using your argument that we are “devloving” the species with vaccination, you are really only going to save the lucky – not those who are somehow “better.”


    Yes, I’m an ass.
    Do you care to comment on the content of the Gregori’s post or my responses?


    I have heard many quotes like the one you cite here. When I contacted the physicians or other people who tell stories like this and ask them for details, it usually turns out that there is no hard facts – it is not true. They combine things they hear from other physicians with stories they remember from university – or something else. Most of them repeat the stories because they want to do something good: Preach for vaccines like others preach for salvation. But nevertheless – its stories not facts. And it is not science based to repeat anonymous quotes like this. It is simply naive.


      When I contacted the physicians or other people who tell stories like this and ask them for details, it usually turns out that there is no hard facts – it is not true

      Odd. When Dr. Raff investigated, she found a vast amount of published hard research supporting the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Is the one-sided nature of the scientific research on this question the reason you polled people verbally rather than reviewing the literature?


    My comment was on the anonymous quote at the begin: Jennifer found it particularly interesting.


      Bert, let me Google that for you: “Over 9,000 cases of pertussis were reported in California during 2010, the most in over 60 years, including 10 infant deaths.

      Now, the miracle cures you and your friends have, fixing glioblastomas with Vitamin C—those I never see documented. Deaths from vaccine-preventable diseases? We had thousands of such deaths every year in the pre-vaccine era, so why is it surprising that they would come back?


    If You are a scientist, You have to know that nowdays everything have to be “evidence-based”. Where are Your evidence, pro and contra?


    A request… Everyone who claims that the mercury/lead in the vaccines doesn’t contribute to Autism and/or other problems, how about you ingest the amount of lead that was in the shots when my son had his vaccines in the early 90’s, and then come back and post? Or heck, just bust open one of those old thermometers and let the mercury roll around in your hand.

    And a question… Why was it mandated by the government that lead be removed from paint if lead isn’t harmful?

    And another question… Why did the government start making shots without lead if lead isn’t harmful?

    Oxymoron anyone?


      Fact of the matter is, you (the collective you, not anyone in particular) can’t win in political arguments, you can’t win in religious arguments, and you can’t win in vaccine arguments. This will be an argument until vaccines and/or people no longer exist.


        I respectfully disagree with your statement. It is apparent that more and more people in the world are awakening to the reality that vaccines are dangerous and do not provide the immunity that is sold to us as evidenced by the recent outbreaks of mumps, measles and pertussis among the vaccinated. There is a grass movement that will make positive change for the good of mankind and 50-100 years from now vaccination will be classified with bloodletting.


          JDY, the outbreaks of these diseases among the vaccinated are a tiny fraction of the outbreaks we had before vaccines, which for many of them is in my lifetime. What about the widespread epidemics, with deaths and permanent damage, do you miss, exactly? Or are you just sad that you can’t show off your Badass Immune System until vaccine-preventable diseases are endemic.

          When the success of the polio vaccine was announced, people rang church bells.


      Good grief. You really are quite addled when it comes to basic chemistry.

      Your turn now, to produce any link to any citation about lead ever being incorporated into any vaccine.

      Go back to school and take some classes is organic and inorganic chemistry.

      Autism is genetic i.e. you are born with it.


        My blow it, I’m sorry about that statement about lead. I was lumping together mercury/thimerosal/lead and should not have.


        Please provide the credible evidence to back up your insane statement instead of just parroting what you hear. You need to supply the science that shows this and it must have no link or financial ties to the pharmaceuticals or governments.


          “no link or financial ties to the pharmaceuticals or governments.”

          Who would you consider credible researchers? Where would the funding come from? Because not allowing public health agency studies is pretty much moving the goalposts out of the stadium and over to the next country. Pretty much what is left are health insurance companies and some foundations like the Gangarosa International Health Foundation and Sabin Foundation.

          To help us understand why the studies by public health agencies are bad, please go through this list of studies and explain the shortcomings and errors of each one:
          Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence


          Should we also totally disregard anti-vaccine information from people who have a financial stake in “alternative” treatments (e.g., Mercola, NVIC)? That might be a decent trade!


      Citation needed for the lead. Also, you made a claim that it was the MMR vaccine which never contained thimerosal.


      So you said:

      My situation (my son’s situation) is that at 3 months pregnant I almost lost him; at birth he went emergency C-section and had 2 hours of respiratory distress (that interestingly the all-knowing doctors [that's not directed at you] didn’t tell me about, I read it in his chart); he had massive ear infections which resulted in 4 sets of tubes and now in 2012 he had a permanent set placed; at 13 months he became incredibly ill and at 15 months they finally diagnosed him with Kawasaki Disease and placed him in the hospital and gave him Immuno-Globulin overnight.

      During this time frame, before he was diagnosed, I had the paramedics at my house so many times for him because he was so sick he was having febrile seizures and stopping breathing and all kinds of stuff. One time the 911 operator asked me to describe what he looked like and she said “you just described a dead person to me”.

      He then went on a minimum 3 month aspirin regimen and had many EKG’s/chest X-rays/etc.

      During all this time he was “fine” in regard to milestones, even ahead in some of them. They held off his MMR until he was 22 months old (late October) because they were concerned about his system and how he would handle the shots.

      And then you look at the shot record after all of that and blame the MMR vaccine? Which never contained thimerosal! Your child had major medical issues before the vaccines, and you really don’t have anything but your speculation.

      My son’s had his major seizure which required him to be taken by ambulance just two weeks after his MMR at fifteen months. Why don’t I blame the MMR? Well it is because he had spent the previous week suffering from another virus for which the vaccine was not yet available. And the neurologist then told that particular disease can cause seizures. Which is why I ask if the vaccine or the disease has a higher probability to cause seizures.

      I am so sorry your son has all of those medical and psychological issues. But you need to use your energies on him, not on spurious speculation without any real evidence.


        Hi Chris, please read back further to see that I have listed several different possibilities of what could have happened. Yes the MMR happened at 22 months and signs of Autism presented themselves shortly thereafter. However, if you look at all the stuff that was pumped into his body within such a short period of time (even the chicken pox vaccine), it could have been any one of those things or a combination of things. Heck who knows, this stuff used to be in Immuno-Globulin from what I’m finding (may still be, I don’t know) and he had that so who knows, maybe it was that that triggered the marker or maybe a combination of that and vaccines or maybe brain damage due to the febrile seizures or the horrendous head slamming, or maybe the 4 times of anesthesia from the ear infections/operations, or maybe the drugs they gave him when they had to do his “chest work” after the Kawasaki, who knows. The signs started showing shortly after he had his MMR shot. Maybe it (the Autism) was just a delayed reaction to something else or maybe the Kawasaki triggered it. I don’t know, and probably never will, but I will never shout down any parent about their vaccination decisions as so many here have done. I will never degrade or put down or insult someone because of their decision on vaccines, whether yay or nay. I will never shout down someone who feels that a vaccine caused their child’s autism. I will however shout down anyone who shouts me down. Until the honest to goodness cause is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (which may never be possible at this point) I whole-heartedly support every parent’s/caregiver’s decision on whether or not to vaccinate. The comments being made about focusing on him, etc. from you and others… You all have absolutely no idea what my life and relationship consists of with my son. Trust me (or not), my energies are focused on him even more so than on my work.

        All that being said, thank you Chris for your sentiments toward my son. :o)

    Randal Hughes June 18, 2014 at 2:39 pm

    I have been intrigued following this thread. The VAX vs Anti-Vax, but there is one constant that science & medical professionals or anybody for that matter: why is autism at epidemic proportions compared to 25 years ago in the U.S.? The rest of the world doesn’t have the problems. Look up autism levels in France for instance.


      “Look up autism levels in France for instance.”

      You just made a claim, so you need to support that claim.


        Here is a link written in regards to the world’s level of autism per country. I also found several links asking the question: why does the U.S. give 36 inoculations to children under the age of 5 with stats supporting it. Either way, health care providers across the globe are scratching their head as to the 36 shots.

        The rate of autism is getting worse very quickly without the medical community coming forward with any answers. Here is a more recent article. 1 in 68 American children will develop autism:
        You asked for links, and here they are. It wasn’t hard really. Don’t be a lazy troll. Research for yourself. You might be surprised what you may find out there.


          Which Vaccine-Preventable-Disease would you eliminate from the United State’s Recommended Childhood Vaccine, Randal?

          Give it your best shot and explain why you would eliminate any of those vaccines, providing information from *reliable scientific sources.

          * Age of Autism is NOT a reliable source.


          … and on the “rightdiagnosis” website it says for France: “WARNING! EXTRAPOLATED STATISTICS ONLY! Not based on data sources from individual countries.”

          The reason that France has low numbers is because they refuse to count them, or provide education for those children:


          Hilarious. Or it would be if it didn’t have serious consequences. I mean it’s crazy when you consider that this all came from one made up study from one thoroughly discredited doctor who:

          * was not able to repeat his results

          * was using deeply flawed methodology

          * was being paid by an ambulance-chasing lawyer to find a particular result

          * was marketing his own vaccines which were in competition with the MMR vaccine.

          So confronted with a choice between the entire medical community throughout the world, and this one guy who we know really was motivated by his own financial gain, some people prefer to believe in a truly enormous (and therefore highly unlikely) conspiracy involving everyone, rather than a small conspiracy that has been demonstrated to have existed, and choose the former. I mean Christ, surely Occam’s razor tells you they can’t ALL be in on it?

          The rate of autism is getting “worse” because as we understand more about autism, we can recognise it more easily and thus identify people as having it who would not have been identified, but would still have had it, before. By way of analogy, my 59-year-old mum has just realised she probably has ADHD all her life, but now we have a name for it, we can diagnose it. This does not mean that ADHD is increasing in prevalence.


          The epistemology of antivax crusaders (and their cousins in Holocaust Denial and Creationism) is that they copy and paste links without the slightest regard to their contents. The study on autism rates per country emphasizes that different levels of diagnosis are significant, and that these are related to the availability of treatment programs. Arizona has twice the autism rate of Arkansas. That isn’t explicable by any variation in vaccine coverage, an excellent data point against the vaccine-autism hypothesis.

          There isn’t a scientific question here. There are interesting questions in morality and theodicy, but not science.


      One reason is that we’ve become pretty aggressive in labeling kids. Some of this is to get them, and their families, better educational support. I don’t know if the French school system is doling out extra money and personnel based on the number of ‘classified’ kids in a classroom. There were two kids in my school growing up who would unquestionably be called autistic now (classic behavior) but we just called them weird, or even nastier names.


        Actually, I did look up autism in France and was reminded that it is deplorable because their system wants to ignore it:
        “This issue has also been addressed by the Council of Europe, which last month for the second time condemned France for failing to put 80 per cent of autistic children in school.”

        Sure, the numbers are low when one chooses to just not count the kids with disabilities.


          The school system is no better in the USA. We have a vaccine damaged son with ADHD and he cannot compute long division, multiply, divide and yet he takes these day long tests a couple of times a year that is supposed to evaluate them and he always scores well. I brought the facts up that he cannot perform basic math, tell time or figure out change to give to a teller to the principal of the junior high school (Pacolet junior High in Pacolet SC) and apparently he did not like what I had to say and I was not allowed back into the school. Again it is all about money. They receive bonuses from the federal government to pass every special needs child whether they can perform the basics are not. Plus I learned he will not receive a diploma but only a certificate. You need a diploma to even work in a burger joint. The government and school systems do not give a damn about us or our children.


            So he was denied access to any school? Just like this mother’s child: “Earlier this month, an outraged mother spent a day protesting atop a crane in the southern French city of Toulouse condemning the reported removal of her 8-year-old autistic son from school.”

            Wow. That harkens back to the days before the Individual with Disabilities Education Act when US schools would exclude children. You really need to find a lawyer to get your child back into a school You should start with this website:

            Good luck.


            And again I have no desire to make light of your son’s disability, you have my sympathy. But I find your determination that he must have been damaged by vaccines to have developed ADHD distressing. Is it so hard to believe, so unthinkable, that your child could just be disabled? Sometimes these things just happen. There isn’t always a cause. Some people get cancer, some people get MS, soome people get hay fever, and some don’t; some of these things are the results of things that have happened to them, or their genetic heritage, but sometimes it’s just variation. It’s not necessarily anyone’s fault. Very sad, but not anyone’s fault.


    Always freedom of election. Never a individual dose identity. If authorities recommend a vaccine they and his family must get it first. Medical class included. Everybody same product, no differents.And after always freedom of election…


    Very nice post. I just stumbled upon your blog and wanted to say that I have truly enjoyed surfing around your blog posts.
    In any case I’ll be subscribing to your rss feed and I hope you write again very soon!


    When my daughter received the first vaccination for whooping cough, she had a severe reaction and had to be hospitalized. It was suggested that she not get the follow-up vaccinations which made perfect sense. However, later she contracted whooping cough. It is a devastating disease. She was sick for months, was hospitalized for two weeks. I had to sleep beside her for weeks because she would cough until she vomited and there was a danger of aspiration. She was so sore from coughing, it was heart wrenching. How I wished she could have received all the vaccinations!


    My biggest reason for begging people to get vaccinated, especially their flu shots? The urn of my father’s ashes.

    You see, from the time I was five my father struggled with lung disease. Home Oxygen, Nebulizers, inhalers, and steroids that made his bones so brittle that he could simply break a rib coughing were the norm. I knew what a ventilator was from the time I was six years old, and knew any day my father could simply not wake up.

    Ten years ago, a loving wonderful family gave my family a gift I can NEVER repay. When their loved one suffered catastrophic brain damage in a car accident, they donated their organs. Dad was the recipient of a double lung transplant. For the first time in close to twenty years my father was the man I remembered from my younger years instead of the sick man I’d come to know.

    However even transplants have their drawbacks, in this case immunosuppressant drugs that warded off rejection. With these drugs my father was forever more unable to get a vaccine, even something as simple as a flu shot. For 9 years we dodged the bullet, us kids were smart enough to get vaccinated every year, the rest of the family would do the same.

    Then last year disaster struck, somehow, somewhere my father came in contact with someone who hadn’t been vaccinated. He caught the flu, which turned into pneumonia, and in the end the ventilators were unable to save him. We signed the papers to remove life support February 13th 2013.

    I was numb for a long time after my father’s passing, and it’s only been recently I’ve started to get angry. Thanks to the Anti-Vax community more and more children will be around people like my father who couldn’t be vaccinated, and more and more people will start dying.

    So here’s my plea, next time you read a poorly researched article on Mercola or Natural News, the next time you claim that not vaccinating your children harms none, the next time the thought crosses your mind that the flu doesn’t kill, remember my father. Remember a man who never got to see his daughter get married, hold his first grandchild, or see his youngest child turn 21.

    Remember that urn of ashes that sits on my mantle the only piece of my father I have left other than the memories.


      I am sorry for your loss as any one would be but your idea of blaming the unvaccinated is very much a reaction of emotion rather than fact or logic. This is what makes the vaccines debate so paralyzing. If you can get rid of the emotional part and think logically and rationally you would come to the conclusion that vaccines are dangerous, they weaken the immune system and cause many illnesses, lifelong disabilities and death with risks that far outweigh the fictitious benefits. First of all the flu virus is around us 365 days a year. there is no such thing as a flu season. It is because that certain times of the year the suns angle is such that very little UVB rays reach the earth and the lack of vitamin D3. It is the lack of D3 during the colder winter months that weakens our immune system allowing some to succumb to the influenza virus. A solution that will improve and strengthen the immune system is to either tan for 15-20 minutes a day or supplement with at least 10,000 IU of D3 daily . Your goal should be to bring the D# blood serum levels up to a minimum of 50 ng/mL and preferably60 n/mL up to 100 ng/mL. i have done this for years and have not received the dangerous vaccines since my childhood of over 40 years ago and than we only had a dozen vaccines throughout our first 18 years not the 49 vaccines by age of 6 as of the last 10 years. I had all the mild diseases what the fear mongers call deadly, chicken pox, measles, mumps and have a strong lifelong immunity because of acquiring the diseases naturally something that is not possible with a vaccine. All my siblings and friends had most of these diseases as well as the children we all went to school with. No one ever died from these e mild diseases. Fear is the best sales man for these worthless and dangerous vaccines.


        Are you suggesting that all vaccines are bad for you? OK – let’s start with polio. Are you suggesting this is a mild disease? Do you think it’s a good thing that children should be exposed to polio so that they build up a lifelong immunity? What “fictitious benefits” does the polio vaccine give that are outweighed by just casually building up immunity by having the full blown disease?

        Have you had polio? Has it done you any good? Did it make you a “better” person?


          Yes, all vaccines are bad for you and have never been proven to work let alone ever been safety tested. First of all I never implied that Polio was a mild disease. Please stop reading into something that is not there. Lets look at the facts and throw your assumptions and emotions. First of all Polio was never eradicated in America or anywhere. The diagnosis criteria was changed 1954 and Polio could now labeled under new diseases because of very similar symptoms such a 1. Enteroviruses such as coxsackie and ECHO 2. Guilllain-Barre syndrome 3. hand, foot and mouth disease 4. lead poisoning and 4. transverse myelitis of which there are 1,400 new cases every year. It was with the stroke of a pen that Polio was erased off the books not by a vaccine. The use of DDT and Arsenic in our food supply also caused similar symptoms that was mistaken for Polio before the change in diagnostic criteria. The major reasons why all diseases had declined 90-95% by the time vaccines were introduced was because of 1. Improved sanitation 2. Clean drinking water 3. Improved nutrition to build up the immune system. All three of these requirements for eradicating disease are what is lacking in the third world countries and why disease still persists at larger proportions than in the developed countries.

          Polio was the first massive vaccination campaign and the powers in charge would not let it fail no matter what the cost because everyone stood to make a lot of money.

          In 1948 Dr. Klenner cured 60 out of 60 Polio cases with high dose IV vitamin C. This critical information was suppressed because the pharmaceuticals can not patent Vitamin C and therefore cannot make large profits. The government, medical community are all led by the fox(pharmaceuticals) guarding the hen house and are merely puppets of the industry but all are making huge profits from the epidemic of diseases, allergies, autoimmune diseases, lifelong disabilities and even death so their is no incentive to have critical thinking and perform independent research on their own. The ones that do perform this critical thinking and independent research have been subjected to being discredited, stripping of license and attempted to silence them so as not to expose the facts and truth. There are some who know of the damage they are causing but again profits supersede any ethical or moral thinking. After 50 years the CDC finally admitted on their website that the Polio vaccine was contaminated with the SV40 virus which was determined to cause cancer up to 30 or 40 years after the initial polio vaccine. The CDC page went viral and that is when the CDC removed the page from their website. Many other vaccines are contaminated with other disease causing viruses.

          Please listen to and read the following so that you may learn the facts and truth,
          1. Dr. Suzanne Humphries, MD presentation on the accurate history of Polio
          2. Dr. Suzanne Humphries, MD on Polio interview
          3. How the oral Polio vaccine is causing acute flaccid paralysis

          I did my research and critical thinking along with many others who are waking up to the truth and I created a power point to encourage you and others to research for yourself so that you may come to your own conclusion and not take the word of someone trained and brainwashed( a physician is taught 8-10 hours of nutrition and 2 years of pharmacology and than undergoes sleep deprivation during internship) by the pharmaceuticals


            “Yes, all vaccines are bad for you and have never been proven to work let alone ever been safety tested.”

            Why should we believe you? Those are not proper citations, and from credulous sources. What part of “PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers” did you fail to understand?

            If vaccines have never proven to work, then look at the following data from the US Census Bureau. Now tell us with actual PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable credible researchers on what caused the rate of measles incidence (morbidity) to drop 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970. Do not mention deaths (mortality), do not mention any other decade and do not mention any other country (neither England nor Wales are American states). Prove to us that you have done real research:

            Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
            1912 . . . 310.0
            1920 . . . 480.5
            1925 . . . 194.3
            1930 . . . 340.8
            1935 . . . 584.6
            1940 . . . 220.7
            1945 . . . 110.2
            1950 . . . 210.1
            1955 . . . 337.9
            1960 . . . 245.4
            1965 . . . 135.1
            1970 . . . . 23.2
            1975 . . . . 11.3
            1980 . . . . . 5.9
            1985 . . . . . 1.2
            1990 . . . . .11.2
            1991 . . . . . .3.8
            1992 . . . . . .0.9
            1993 . . . . . .0.1
            1994 . . . . . .0.4
            1995 . . . . . .0.1
            1996 . . . . . .0.2
            1997 . . . . . . 0.1


        “If you can get rid of the emotional part and think logically and rationally you would come to the conclusion that vaccines are dangerous, they weaken the immune system and cause many illnesses, lifelong disabilities and death with risks that far outweigh the fictitious benefits.”

        Citation needed. Provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that a vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm that the actual disease.

        “It is the lack of D3 during the colder winter months that weakens our immune system allowing some to succumb to the influenza virus. A solution that will improve and strengthen the immune system is to either tan for 15-20 minutes a day or supplement with at least 10,000 IU of D3 daily ”

        Citation needed. Again, this means that you must provide PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support your claims.

        “I had all the mild diseases what the fear mongers call deadly, chicken pox, measles, mumps and have a strong lifelong immunity because of acquiring the diseases naturally something that is not possible with a vaccine.”

        So what? Even if you were not effected many others were. So you really don’t care if several hundred children died from measles in the USA before 1963, and that thousands became deaf from mumps. Only a sadistic monster would not want to prevent those diseases. And only a parasite would ride on the community immunity provided by the responsible families that do vaccinate.

        Also, you don’t have “lifelong immunity” from shingles. You still have varicella viruses in your system just because you had chicken pox, it may reactivate when you least expect it. Enjoy that.


        jdy61 – where in the wide world did you get the idea that just becuase you were fortunate enough to only be mildly affected by the prevailing childhood diseases of your day that these same diseases aren’t deadly to other folks. A common cold can be deadly to a person who is immunosuppressed – this isn’t a folk tale, this is hard, cold fact. My G-grandfather had 11 kids, 4 of them died (3 in infancy) from these “mild” childhood diseases because vaccines were not available in the late 19th century – hard, cold fact. I’m a nurse and I administer vaccines to kids and to date, not one kid has suffered more than mild fever of 100.5F – and that was one out of hundreds I have dealt with. The only fiction I have to deal with is the nonsense, aka quack medicine that illogical, ineffectual “believers” such as yourself haphazardly dispense. Just in reading your post, it’s readily apparent that your knowledge of the health sciences as they relate to the human body and also the flu cycle is badly deficient and your knowledge of physics as applied to the emissions of the Sun is abysmal. I hope you don’t go around trying to convince mothers of small children of the merits of your “experience” because you’re giving out bad, dangerous advice that could result in someone’s death.


          Survivorship bias. The kids who died from measles (or became extremely disabled) didn’t have the chance to reproduce anti-vax pro-disease cranks.

          I know someone lame from polio and someone else mostly deaf from measles. I guess they didn’t have sufficiently badass immune systems, unlike jdy61. Or, jdy61 is protected by herd immunity, but the idea he (she?) owes good health to us sheeple is just unthinkable. Better to rely on magic amulets.


          Again you are relying on the false assumption of Herd immunity which does not exist with vaccination for reasons I explained earlier. What fictitious credentials do you have to throw out in the wind as to believe that you know something about the flu cycle or of the rising and setting of the sun. I did my research where as you verified you have not and are just throwing out the first blurbs that come to your mind. I explained the reason why we are more susceptible to acquiring influenza at certain times of the year. if you choose to ignore this simple information than go on and depend on your chemical cocktails that do much more harm than good. Tell me, if you believe that vaccines are harmless and work as propagandized than why hasn’t the most elementary science been conducted of a population of non-vaccinated versus the health of a vaccinated group? The simple reason why the pharmaceuticals know that the vaccinated will be much more sickly than the unvaccinated.


            Your explanations all lack some crucial features: data and evidence from qualified sources to back them up.

            And example you might try to emulate; Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States


            jdy61 What credentials do you possess that would give you any kind of credibility at all? My training as a nurse has been at the college & university level – and the campuses I attended are among the very best in the nation as compared to their peers.. I am willing to bet that I have had more formal training in science at the college and university level than you, with additional training in the nuclear field courtesy of Uncle Sam and the U.S. Navy. As others have inquired, where are the factual studies to back up and affirm what you have been posting? As far as I am concerned, you are a dangerous individual who seems to be determined to get someone killed with your misinformation, that or you are seriously deluded – but just as dangerous to others.

            The vaccine studies that you claim do not exist actually do and are available to anyone with an interest in determining the truth. You, on the other hand, have an agenda and do not seem to care in the least about determining the truth. I also suspect that you are not able to discern the truth given your apparent lack of critical thinking skills and claims lacking any substance.


            We don’t usually see control groups for vaccines because, frankly, it would be highly unethical to let the control group get life-threatening diseases. But I can think of one example: the first polio trial. The results were so extraordinary church bells rang.

            We also have the before-and-after introduction effect. Chris has asked jdy61 repeatedly to explain the 90%+ drop in measles incidence between 1960 and 1970, and even though Chris specifically asked to discuss incidence and not mortality, he(?) came back with mortality numbers. I conclude jdy41 doesn’t have the slightest clue what’s really going on, and is left to copy and paste the same lies and deceptions from anti-vax sites, and when asked a question these sites don’t, and can’t, answer, he is pretty much stuck.


              I suspect that he has some kind of entrenched learning disability that affects his reading comprehension. He simply does not understand what he is reading.


        Vaccines are very rarely dangerous, and usually only for those who are contraindicated like my father. However it’s been proven time and time again people do and did die from VPD in alarming numbers before vaccines came out. I’m epileptic, however I’m also fully vaccinated and my children are too. Why, because I know that my seizure disorder came from genetics rather than vaccines.

        I’m glad you survived all of these childhood illnesses intact however many many others didn’t. I still have the chicken pox scars almost thirty years later to prove it. The fever that came with the disease also lead to the my first seizure and almost caused the doctors to misdiagnose my epilepsy.

        As for the Vitamin D3 and flu, you do realize that that theory was pushed by Mercola, he’s nothing more than a dangerous 2 bit quack who is trying to make money off of his supplement line, so of course he’s going to push that “theory”. It amazes me what these modern day snake oil salesmen can get away with.

        Those who are afraid of Big Pharma will tell you that these companies make a killing off of vaccines, when in all reality they don’t. Vaccines have one of the lowest profit margins in the entire pharmaceutical world. You know why? Because they would make more money selling drugs to either mask or cure the symptoms rather than making sure people never got the disease in the first place.

        I’m sure FDR would much rather have taken a quick and easy drink of medicine rather than suffer with the after affects of Polio all of his life. I’m sure Roald Dahl would much rather have given his oldest child a shot rather than see her die of measles. Wouldn’t the millions who died in the Spanish Flu epidemic rather have gotten a simple shot?

        Finally, don’t ever tell me to put the emotional part of my father dying to the side. Until you’ve had to stand there, sign the papers that are essentially killing someone you love, then watch as their heart starts to slowly quit beating, then you know nothing of putting the emotional part to the side.


    It’s fantasztic thnat you are getting ideas from his
    article as well as frlm oour argument made at this time.


    I am an advocate for vaccinations, as I am sure they do more good than bad.

    However, I do not believe in any statistics any more, since I tried to report a possible side effect to an influenca vaccination. First, I informed the doctor who had given me the injection. She just said that my sudden hearing loss would definitely not come come from this vaccination (there had been no other conceivable source, and it made me wonder: how could she know at the blink off an eye?). So I went to my GP: Same result. So I went to the pharmacy from where I had bought the vaccination. They at least opened some site on their computer to find out that it did say something about ears, but, no, he did not THINK there was any connection. END of the story? For most people, they would not have gone through all these steps, would they? But thanks internet I wrote an email to the producer. After a rather long delay (the person in charge had been on holiday) I did get a response: They considered it possible, and had put the case down for, well what? evidence.

    Whom, I have asked myself ever since, can we trust, if they quote data about side effects?


    Dear Docs,
    here in Austria, Europe we have had nearly 100% vaccinated kids, small illnes after were usual, like a bit fever..
    When I was young, we got vaccinated each for each illnes, when my daughter was born, she got allways 3 vaccinated at the same time, more kids have had problems with feever, feeling ill, aches,…
    This days Babies are getting vaccines for 6 diases at the same time, and more Problems after are happend. So lot’s of parents wont vaccine their babies now!
    Please go back and do it 1 by 1, just a little is rasier to handle for the small body! Sorry for my english!
    Oh and äs a mom and daycarer, I know a lot of kids, non here went sick from vaccinats.

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