New study overturns yet another anti-vaccine talking point

The pseudoscience community has long tried to convince parents that the MMR vaccine (to prevent infection with the diseases measles, mumps, and rubella) causes autism, despite study after study after study after study after study after study after study after study* showing that there is no connection between MMR and autism.

The pseudoscience community’s desperate investment in this myth–and the shaky ground they stand on– is illustrated by how quickly they shift their stories:

“Thimerosol or aluminum, or some kind of ‘toxin’ is the cause!”    Debunked .

“No, I mean, it’s just too many too soon!”    Debunked

“No, but seriously, natural infection is way better because unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children!”   Debunked.

And just yesterday, another study  (Jain et al. 2015 Autism occurrence by MMR vaccination status among US children with older siblings with and without autism) has come out debunking yet another antivaccine myth: that the MMR vaccine somehow “triggers” autism in children who are genetically susceptible to it.

Time reveals the absence of integrity in pseudoscientific constructions.
Time reveals the absence of integrity in pseudoscientific constructions.

Some commenters on my blog have expressed various forms of this idea:

“I’m not saying that vaccines are the cause of autism but I do feel that they can be “the straw that breaks the camel’s back” for some individuals who are genetically more suseptable.”

“And to the poster who mentioned that children could have something in them that predisposes them to develop Autism after the shot, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Same as someone who smokes and doesn’t develop lung cancer vs. the other smoker who does develop lung cancer.”

 

Large genomewide scans of families with a history of autism have shown that there is a strong heritable component to autism, with many different associated genes. (The genetic and developmental mechanisms are still being investigated and are likely quite complicated).  So does having one child who develops autism mean that other children in the family are at higher risk of developing autism, if vaccinated with MMR? This study (with a total sample size of 95,727 children) explicitly examined that question by comparing (retrospectively) children with different vaccination statuses with older siblings with or without autism spectrum disorder (ASD). They report:

“In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.”

 

This finding is particularly important for parents who already have a child with autism, who are told again and again by the pseudoscience community that their decision to vaccinate their child is what caused the onset of autism.   Barraged by this constant message that autism in one of their children must be due to the vaccine (and the implication that it is their fault!), parents desperate to do whatever they perceive is best for their children may delay or withhold vaccination for subsequent children.

This study should set those parents’ fears to rest.

You can read the paper for yourself here, but I also highly recommend that you read Tara Haelle’s excellent summary of the study’s findings in Forbes. She makes the point that

“Although the study’s findings might have been expected by those in the field and anyone who has followed the research, the research still cost money, and those funds, which came from the National Institutes of Health and a handful of major universities, might have gone to any number of other projects.”

 

Even with this latest study, I predict that the small (but vocal) anti-vaccine community will find yet another mythical reason why MMR must cause autism. They are desperate to create the illusion that there is a legitimate scientific debate about the safety of vaccines. In many cases they have a huge financial incentive to do so. Read Colin’s account of his visit to an antivaccine conference, where the organizers hawked natural ‘remedies’ and ‘cures’ for autism. A quick search of any of the leaders of the antivaccine movement, such as Bob Sears, Tim O’Shea and “Thinking Moms”  reveals that they all have books to sell, speakers’ fees to collect at conferences, and advertising to sell on their blogs.  To stay relevant, they have to create fear and uncertainty among parents trying to make the best decisions for their children.

Fortunately, the vast majority of parents understand that vaccination is the best way of protecting their children from infectious diseases, and the voices of the pseudoscientific community are increasingly drowned out by the sheer volume of evidence against them.

 

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*This is a tiny sampling of the research out there–I just did a quick search on PubMed and posted links until I got tired of illustrating this. If you would like to read the papers but can’t access them because of paywalls, get in touch with me.

53 thoughts on “New study overturns yet another anti-vaccine talking point

  1. RichCoulter April 22, 2015 / 7:32 am

    “They are desperate to create the illusion that there is a legitimate scientific debate about the safety of vaccines.”

    Are you saying the three billion paid out by VICP to families of vaccine-injured children is not by itself enough evidence of the legitimate scientific debate about the “safety” of vaccines? Are you suggesting that MMR is the only vaccine people are concerned about and autism is their only concern? You appear to suggest that based on the sentence preceding the one I just quoted.

    “This finding is particularly important for parents who already have a child with autism, who are told again and again by the pseudoscience community that their decision to vaccinate their child is what caused the onset of autism.”

    Yes, if MMR is the only vaccine on the schedule. But it’s not, you can post hyperlinks again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again but none of them are to studies comparing rates of ASDs between fully vaccinated and never vaccinated individuals. Comparing autism rates between those receiving 50 doses of 16 vaccines and 48 doses of 15 vaccines and saying rates of ASDs are the same therefore vaccines play no role in ASDs is blunt stupidity, way beyond scientific dishonestly.

    “A quick search of any of the leaders of the antivaccine movement, such as Bob Sears, Tim O’Shea and “Thinking Moms” reveals that they all have books to sell, speakers’ fees to collect at conferences, and advertising to sell on their blogs.”

    As do Seth Mnookin, David Gorski and Paul Offit. If Sears’ incentive is “huge” how do you define Offit’s?

    ““No, but seriously, natural infection is way better because unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children!” Debunked.”

    Anyone that cites KIGGS is being intellectually dishonest. KIGGS compared health outcomes between never vaccinated and “everyone else”, not never vaccinated and fully vaccinated. It should be easy for the study authors to identify the number of subjects that were fully vaccinated on time as per the schedule and compare only those subjects to the never vaccinated. The “vaccinated” group in KIGGS can comprise those receiving only a single vaccine at any age.

    • reissd April 22, 2015 / 3:38 pm

      A. I would say that the tiny amount of cases compensated by NVICP – 3600 in 25 years out of millions of doses given each year – is in line with the science that shows that serious problems from vaccines are extremely rare. While nothing is 100% safe, there is no real debate in the scientific community that the very, very rare risk of vaccine injury is much smaller than the risks of not vaccinating, and that vaccines meet a high threshold of safety.

      B. Since many anti-vaccine activists blame MMR, debunking that claim is important in itself – and this study does that.

      C. What, exactly, are Offit’s conflicts of interest in your views? He donates the proceeds of his books to charity, and does not currently make money directly from speaking up for vaccines.

      D. Studies of unvaccinated: There are several studies that looked at that. “And just yesterday, another study (Jain et al. 2015 Autism occurrence by MMR vaccination status among US children with older siblings with and without autism) has come out debunking yet another antivaccine myth: that the MMR vaccine somehow “triggers” autism in children who are genetically susceptible to it.”

      But if the claim is that vaccines increase the risk of harm, rates of vaccination are a relevant measure – and the Smith and Wood (2010) and DeStefano (2013) studies address that. If the claim is that any vaccine is harmful, the never vaccinated v. everyone else is a good measure – and that’s what KIGGS did.

      The fact that you did not like the study’s finding does not make it an inappropriate study.

      • Chris April 22, 2015 / 6:17 pm

        “…millions of doses given each year..”

        More accurately hundreds of million of doses each year, over three hundred million vaccine doses in the USA each year.

    • Anonymous June 1, 2016 / 5:51 pm

      ahahahahahaha-no.

  2. JerryA April 22, 2015 / 9:23 am

    I’ve been told by anti-vaccine folks that they’re searching for an answer, “just like scientists do”. Yes, scientists try different hypotheses and discard ones which do not work. However, the huge logical killer flaw in their arguments is that there is no connection between vaccination and autism. None. They’re trying to cram an explanation into a so-called problem that simply does not exist. Autism needs to be explained, but vaccines are not it. Period, full stop. They’re not ‘doing research”, they’re misguided at best or lying at worst.

    Speaking of that conclusion, for people new to reading Dr. Raff’s blog, “richcoulter” seems to be yet another online incarnation of a person who makes the same anti-vaccine arguments in the comments over and over again, no matter how often they are debunked (even in the same blog post!). For example, the “$3 billion” argument shows a total ignorance of both law and statistics.
    Law: A guest blogger (Colin) showed that those families did not need to prove a connection between vaccines and their family members injuries. This was intended to make the vaccine court compensation easier for the families.
    Statistics: Those payments went to about 3,600 people over almost 30 years, out of many billions of vaccinations. Given a population of hundreds of millions of people, the rate is tiny. (I’m not saying no one was hurt or that anyone’s pain was unimportant!, just pointing out the risk of getting hit by lightning strike while being bitten by a shark is still higher than any severe reaction to vaccines.) Before vaccinations, the permanent harm and death rate due to vaccine-preventible diseases over a 30 year time span was more than 1,000x higher. These facts have been pointed out to him several times, but he’s baaaack, so please don’t feed the troll.

  3. jgc56 April 22, 2015 / 9:52 am

    “Are you saying the three billion paid out by VICP to families of vaccine-injured children is not by itself enough evidence of the legitimate scientific debate about the “safety” of vaccines?”

    No, it is not.

    First, consider the number of awards versus the number of vaccine doses delivered. From the inauguration of the NVICP through March 2015 4,022 awards had been granted by the NVICP. During that same time period more than 2 billion vaccine doses were delivered (2,236,678,735 doses as of Dec 31, 2013). Awards to doses delivered is 0.0002% 9and that’s rounding up).

    Second, consider that better than 90% of the awards given were for table injuries, where no causal association between the vaccination received and the injury claimed has either been demonstrated by the claimants nor acknowledged by the court.

    And third, consider that all the awards given have been for adverse events ALREADY KNOWN to be associated with vaccination (e.g., encephalopathy) so if anything the NVICP award record supports the conclusion that our current understanding of the safety and efficacy of routine vaccination, which adverse events are associated with vaccines and the incidence with which they occur, is accurate.

  4. mrsbehaviour April 22, 2015 / 11:14 am

    How is it that a court of law where lawyers who did not study science argue the merits of their client’s personal interest can even be considered as relevant? Lawyers study law. Their job is to present the best case they can to get settlements on behalf of their clients. They can use whatever means they like to do so, including using pseudoscience. If the judge or jury (depending on which court and which jurisdiction you are in) believes you, then your clients get awarded damages. That is no where near proving anything and in a juried scientific article, you could never use that as supporting evidence to prop up your hypothesis; it is not evidence in the wscientific sense.

  5. c0nc0rdance April 22, 2015 / 3:52 pm

    Well written!

    I wonder if it would be more productive to talk about all the KNOWN risk factors. From my minimal research, the heritability of autism seems quite high, it’s associated with maternal and paternal age, birth defects and in utero exposures… none of which is consistent with exposure postnatal. If vaccines were causative, wouldn’t it show up as a covariate in other analyses and need to be teased out?

  6. Dr. Jekyll April 22, 2015 / 4:13 pm

    I wonder if we would even be having this conversation if the study (Wakefield et. al) had never come out. Think about it, we don’t suggest that because there is a much stronger correlation between “organic” foods and autism that “organic” foods are to blame. Yet, people cling to the idea that vaccines are the cause of autism or have some magical effect on the body that causes the onset.

    (and this is where I get on my soapbox, sorry Jennifer)

    There are some huge holes in the argument that “big pharma” is covering something up to make money. For instance say some research team (funded by a pharmaceutical company or not) rushed to the one of the manufactures for vaccines and said “We have definitive proof that vaccines are harmful because of X”.

    That company wouldn’t suppress the information, instead they would produce a vaccine that doesn’t cause (or have) “X” in it, try to patent it and then corner the market. It’s bad business because if the truth ever got out, which it would, another company could get to it first or even make other companies look bad by not fixing them sooner.

    Not that any of this would help profits substantially, vaccines aren’t anywhere near the bulk of pharmaceutical companies profits. Moreover, there is no pharmacological treatment for autism so there would be no point it trying to profit from giving a portion of the population autism from vaccines, there is no money to be made in it. The second the truth ever came out (with actual science to back it up instead of some random guy on the internet) it would ruin the company(ies) trying to cover it up, which is — again — bad business.

    Make no mistake, there was a conspiracy it would come out with some actual proof very quickly, Look at prism, if the government with all it’s mythical power couldn’t hide the fact it was rummaging through our personal information without being exposed how is a lowly pharmaceutical company going to pull it off?

    Lastly (and possibly most importantly) you have extra vocal antivaccination people with little or no formal experience, who have known conflicts of interest, and no actual evidence to back up their claims. They are telling you “Hey, don’t listen to that Doctor, with all his fancy formal training and understanding of complex mechanisms that make up the human body, he’s lying to you because there is a big conspiracy.” “Don’t be a sheep and listen to you Doctor, think for yourself and think what I tell you to think.”

    That is my favorite thing to point out, we are being called “sheep” for listening to the research and coming to the same logical conclusions about that research. Yet, these are the same people following some other random group with no actual evidence for anything they are saying. In other words, same sheep, different flock.

    Now, I think this would be the point I drop my mic and get off the stage.

  7. Hildegard of Bingen April 22, 2015 / 8:50 pm

    Two anti-vax things that have come across my path recently: that all outbreaks are caused by vaccinated individuals who are shedding the virus (or conversely, vaccinated individuals whose immunity has waned and therefore they contracted and spread the disease), and this article, which can’t seem to decide if the vaccines were substandard or not: http://nation.com.pk/lahore/18-Apr-2015/measles-vaccine-kills-3-more-kids
    The second of course is always accompanied by the reasoning that the outbreaks didn’t kill anyone, but the vaccines have. sigh
    It’s hard, even when I’ve read the studies, the safety studies, the numbers, when so many people I know are convinced that vaccines have injured their children or themselves (including people who have been awarded compensation by the vaccine court). It’s easy to want to believe and sympathize with them, and much harder to call it bunk.

    • Chris April 22, 2015 / 9:50 pm

      “It’s easy to want to believe and sympathize with them, and much harder to call it bunk.”

      Why?

      The news story is from a country with a struggling infrastructure. Measles, and MMR, vaccines come as a dry powder that need to be reconstituted with sterile water and used within a few hours. All of requires specific storage conditions, a cold chain. Something that is difficult in a poor country where there are people murdering medical workers.

      Do not equate the conditions in the USA and Europe with Pakistan. Question the veracity of anyone who does this. It is a false equivalency lie, just like the claim that disease rates went down before vaccines but only data on mortality are given.

      • Hildegard of Bingen April 23, 2015 / 1:46 pm

        I should say, hard to call it bunk and expect to ever speak with them again. Usually, I try to keep lines of communication open, even when I disagree about things, because I’ll never change the mind of someone who isn’t speaking to me.
        Thank you for more information on the news article. I don’t know much about how vaccines are transported or administrated in other countries, except some reports I’ve read about how removing the preservatives (ethyl mercury? Did I get that right?) would be financial disastrous for vaccine programs in rural areas of South America. I think it was from Peru. I’m just starting up the learning curve on vaccines because I got SO fed up with misinformation and misrepresentation from the anti-vax side.
        Does anyone know if there is an article or study about any connection (or lack of connection, I’m thinking) between vaccines and food allergies? I’m seeing that accusation a lot, along with the unsubstantiated accusation that vaccines cause SIDS. Imagine me grimacing here–because what parents of a baby who has died of SIDS really need is the anti-vax people guilt tripping them.

        • Chris April 23, 2015 / 2:19 pm

          “Does anyone know if there is an article or study about any connection (or lack of connection, I’m thinking) between vaccines and food allergies?”

          Checked through the Vaccine Safety Datalink (I have a broken arm so you’ll have to scroll yourself):
          http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/library/vsd_pubs.html

          SIDS:
          Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9.
          Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

          There is this huge medical literature called PubMed.

          Cost of vaccines in developing countries: check the World Health Organization

          “Thank you for more information on the news article. I don’t know much about how vaccines are transported or administrated in other countries,…”

          Suggestions:

          Read the article. Look up the country, and news about it. It is troubling that you know so little about a volatile part of this planet:
          https://www.google.com/search?q=pakistan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#tbm=nws&q=pakistan+vaccine

          Get familiar with the vaccines, including transport, storage and safe use. This is available free online via the CDC Pink Book.

          • Hildegard of Bingen April 23, 2015 / 3:09 pm

            Thank you very much! I had started searching pubmed (it was a bit overwhelming until I learned how best to narrow search criteria). The reports from Pakistan are heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time, moreso when one of the articles on the first page is someone claiming vaccines don’t work (and that the polio uptick after WWII was due to incestual rape).

            • Chris April 23, 2015 / 3:19 pm

              By the way broken bones are painful, so I had more than one reason to be prickly. I have been told that my son’s problems were caused by vaccines, except he had seizures as a newborn… long before the HepB vaccine.

              Sorry if I come across as cross.

              • Hildegard of Bingen April 23, 2015 / 8:15 pm

                Not at all! You have been very helpful and I’ve found several abstracts and articles to read. I might never change the minds of those who are strongly anti-vax, but I will at least have plenty of reliable information for people who are teetering on the edge of the rabbit hole. Other people reading discussions could be making up their minds, or doubting their decisions. I appreciate that one of the full articles available is from France, because so many people in the crunchy-all-natural-no-vax camp seem to idolize France (I looked up France’s vaccine schedule once when someone tried the whole “France doesn’t vaccinate and they don’t have ADHD” line.)

              • Chris April 23, 2015 / 8:21 pm

                Thanks, both of you.

                By the way, tiled bathroom floors are more dangerous than vaccines! Bathrooms are perhaps the most dangerous rooms in the house.

                • gewisn May 17, 2015 / 1:26 pm

                  Sorry, Chris, but the kitchen, not the bathroom, is the most dangerous room.

                  The kitchen, not the bathroom, has certainly contributed to my obesity.
                  The kitchen, not the bathroom, has certainly contributed to my risk of heart disease.
                  The kitchen, not the bathroom, has certainly contributed to my risk of diabetes.
                  The kitchen, not the bathroom, is where I’ve been threatened with death if I ever again:
                  – put insufficiently cleaned dishes into the dishwasher
                  – waste all the hot water washing dishes before putting them into the dishwasher
                  – fail to leave the microwave door open in order to let the smell out before the next use
                  – leave the microwave door open
                  – fail to put milk on the list when there is only a small amount left in the carton
                  – put milk on the list when there is still some, if only a small amount, left in the carton
                  – set foot.

                  • Chris May 17, 2015 / 2:27 pm

                    LOL

                    I stand (carefully) corrected. Fortunately my worst kitchen mishap are a few knife cuts and some burns. I’m infamous in my family for setting hot pads on fire. Fortunately, thanks to never smoked, I have the lung capacity to blow them out.

        • Chris April 23, 2015 / 2:26 pm

          “Imagine me grimacing here–because what parents of a baby who has died of SIDS really need is the anti-vax people guilt tripping them.”

          Another reason those anti-vax people are not truthful and lack basic human empathy:

          Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
          Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

          “An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.”

          Lesson: lies kill.

          More here:
          Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

          and here:
          Diphtheria in the former Soviet Union: reemergence of a pandemic disease.

  8. aplested April 23, 2015 / 12:52 am

    Reblogged this on Serious Piffle and commented:

    Jennifer Raff covers yet another blow to the anti-vaccine cause. There is no trigger effect of vaccination in siblings of autistic kids, who should be more susceptible because of their similar genetic background.

    Via David Colquhoun’s Twitter.

  9. caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 10:53 am

    So. Nano bots. I don’t need any damn evidence to know that these exist. So lets say, the population would be easy to control if they have nano bots in em right? Why does the government say they are good when like everything they say is good for us is bad and everything bad is good for us. How about: Use your mind to tell your brain to heal your body, i.e., immune system and fuck all the chemicals, use herbs. did ya know some vaccines and fluoride n shit calcify your denial gland? thats groosssss. Im js, mind power, if the vaccines didn’t dumb us down then maybe we could use it, and wouldn’t get sick at all. The power of the mind i say, thats what this is surprising
    \

    • notnearlyanonymous May 19, 2015 / 3:29 pm

      Caeonamurdoch,
      That’s beautifully written.
      Although your sarcasm seems quite obvious, I’ll bet there will at least one reader who thinks there is someone out there who is simultaneously sufficiently informed on the arguments yet so amazingly clueless that could write what you did and actually be serious about it.

      (the slow clap emoji)

      • caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 5:32 pm

        Not nearly anonymous. Did it really seem like i was trying? i was literally cluelessly throwing some ideas out there. And being sarcastic. Both these things are in my nature, but that doesn’t mean there i not some validity to what i said. What If, very recently, with all this proproganda trying to get people to vaccinate their children, that the government was wrong. I am not lying nor being foolish when i say, I do not trust anything that the media says is good for me or the government tries very hard to mandate in the general population. In fact, most shit that is said is a whole bunch of lies and illusion, so why on earth would vaccines be anything different?
        It may be a conspiracy to you or someone or whatever, but wait until someone realizes its all lies and then proves it! wait, no, prove it to yourself and continue on, I’m sure we will find out if vaccines (which i am not saying is good nor bad, there are cases for each) are actually good or actually bad. Im just saying my instincts and my mind and my heart are telling me they aint doing shit for us but dumbing us down. And for the brain/mind/body thing. Thats true shit, and i do it on a daily basis so i do have my own personal experience healing myself. I do it everyday. Vaccines are not necessary, nor is herd whatever the fuck gunna affect you UNLESS YOU TELL YOUR BRAIN THAT IT IS>>>>>YOUR BRAIN IS IN CHARGE OF YOUR BODY>>>>>YOUR MIND IS IN CHARGE OF YOUR BRAIN!!!!!!!!!!! USE THIS SHIT!

        • Chris May 19, 2015 / 6:22 pm

          “that the government was wrong.”

          Which government? What is your evidence that particular government is wrong?

          “YOUR BRAIN IS IN CHARGE OF YOUR BODY>>>>>YOUR MIND IS IN CHARGE OF YOUR BRAIN!!!!!!”

          Even when someone gets a stroke or encephalitis? Should I yell at my autistic son to not do his stims, speak properly or pace because it shows he is not in charge of his body? What did he do wrong as an infant to have seizures? Is it because his baby body was not smart enough?

          • caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 7:25 pm

            That the government was wrong> The united states government i guess, i shouldn’t even use the term. But yes, thats who I’m talking about, and the corporations and whoever runs Most all of the higher up shit in the government, multiple governments. its a lie to even be separated, basic logic states we are all humans, now divided and conquered. there is too much evidence to say it all here, take 911 for instance. WHAT A HUGE LIE THAT WAS!!!!

            and Actually, that is a thing, your mind does control your brain. I am actually very slightly autistic and have ADHD, but i don’t label it. I do not know what your baby/son is going through, I’m not insulting him nor you so please don’t take the internet seriously. From my point of view, it would be a spiritual problem, things modern science cannot describe. I feel for your anger, i would be angry if the world said by son was abnormal. But really, what if pacing and speaking weird is just another type of normal?
            This also goes into learning about how your mind controls your body, in fact, babys probably know this and would know it all their lives in the right conditions. I can’t give you any answers yet, maybe one day i will be able too.

            What im trying to get at here i our minds control the physical world, there is actually science to prove this! i know it as a fact as true for myself, i use such knowledge every day. As for a stroke or things like that, it was the end product of your mind yes. I have heard from a shaman and another shaman and a ton of people and in my own life and on the internet and literally everywhere i look, people agree that at least 90% of illness is first created as an energy build up that manifests in the body. So, for example, you have a heart attack, the cause would have been your heart stopping. Is this the persons fault? Not really, i wouldn’t blame them, nothing comes from that. However, for whatever reason, this persons heart stopped beating and i would say that energetically that is because 1. they don’t have anything more to live for, or 2. they have suppressed their heart so much it stopped. It is quite simple, when i am angry and spew angry words i develop a sore throat or the like. I feel like i am stumbling through life or can’t hold on to anything, my ankle or wrist is twisted. Your psyche and your body are DIRECTLY INTERCONNECTED. As above so below, what you do to one is done to the other. Therefore, whenever a physical or mental illness comes up, instead of treating the symptoms, i would try to trace back to the cause, physically and in the mind, to see where the block is and then release the block through energy healing or herbs.
            What I’m saying is just what happens in your mind happens in your body as well. And you DO have the power to control your body, google it! there are many things and happye in the right places who talk about it! And good luck

          • caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 7:32 pm

            And one more thing. It would be silly to blame anyone for their shortcomings, why would u punish someone because it seems like they are not in charge of their body? maybe they are. Unless it is you you do not know, and even then you can be deceived. I have done lots of research on this btw, Like a lot a lot. like thats my main activity, researching things.

            • Chris May 19, 2015 / 7:46 pm

              Than why are you doing that with your “mind over body” crud? That is a classic way of blaming the victim for not thinking properly or not being good enough.

        • jgc56 May 19, 2015 / 7:29 pm

          “What If, very recently, with all this proproganda trying to get people to vaccinate their children, that the government was wrong.”

          Then we’d expect to see a substantial body of evidence demonstrating they were wrong, and that vaccines were neither effective or appropriately safe. Needless to say, we don’t.

          “Im just saying my instincts and my mind and my heart are telling me they aint doing shit for us but dumbing us down.”

          The evidence, on the other hand, tells us that far from not doing shit vaccination is one of the most beneficial medical interventions ever developed. If you doubt this, consider the successful eradication of smallpox.

          • caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 7:39 pm

            yes fine points made. however i still don’t trust the media, or anyone else. Someone show me a legit study that isn’t from a university thats funded by big pharma or something. The vaccine industry is huge, like huge. same with all pharmaceuticals. why on earth should i believe that shit?
            how do i know EXACTLY what they are putting in me if i don’t see em put it in there. how, i ask you, or why, would they tell us if they put nano bots in the vaccines
            The mormans are doing fine! Fucking fear mongering. and a whole bunch of convoluted lies. Why can’t we just stick to ‘they’ are in it for the money, not our health and not our safety (GMOS FFS< WHY ALOW THAT IN OUR FOOD). There are a bunch of things about de population and what not., it just seems any time someone sees some nitty gritty evidence they say its a hoax or its covered up before anyone sees! DO you know how much money they would lose if we all stopped taking vaccines? DID you know that there is a herbal remedy for like a bunch of things. the way science is, we could cure shit without sticking needles full of whoknowswhatsreallyinthere in our arms. i just don’t understand

            Please find such a good study i can’t deny they are good for me or tell me how much money they would lose if we all stopped taking vaccines rn. thank you

            • Chris May 19, 2015 / 7:48 pm

              “Someone show me a legit study that isn’t from a university thats funded by big pharma or something.”

              It must be very hard moving all of those goal posts. And quite a tall order for someone who responded with vacuous Google search.

            • jgc56 May 20, 2015 / 10:21 am

              ” Someone show me a legit study that isn’t from a university thats funded by big pharma or something.”

              Like “A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism”, Madsen et al., 2003, which was funded by grants from the Danish National Research Foundation; the National Vaccine Program Office and National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; and the National Alliance for Autism Research?

              Or “Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism”, jain et al, 2015, funded by the National Institute of Mental Health, National Institutes of Health, and the US Department of Health and Human Services?

              There are plenty of studies which were conducted without funding from pharamceutical companies, which include studies funded principally or in part by health insurance companies, who not only would not benefit but whose bottom line would be hurt if they actively provided support for a medical intervention which either did not work or was inappropriately safe.

            • jgc56 May 20, 2015 / 10:32 am

              “DID you know that there is a herbal remedy for like a bunch of things.”

              What things are these, exactly, and what evidence demonstrate herbal remedies are safe and effective cures for them? Be specific.

              “the way science is, we could cure shit without sticking needles full of whoknowswhatsreallyinthere in our arms.”

              The benefit of vaccines, of course, is that we avoid the necessity of having to cure people of infectious diseases by preventing them from becoming infected in the first place.

            • jgc56 May 20, 2015 / 1:16 pm

              “tell me how much money they would lose if we all stopped taking vaccines”

              In the United States, routine vaccination with the following 7 vaccines realizes a cost savings of roughtly 40 billion dollars:

              diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis
              tetanus and diphtheria toxoids
              Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate
              inactivated poliovirus
              measles, mumps, and rubella
              hepatitis B
              varicella

              (see PMID:16330737)

          • caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 7:42 pm

            find a source you like and read it. then, maybe, prove it to yourself. Plus, its kinda subtle

            • jgc56 May 20, 2015 / 10:28 am

              “find a source you like and read it. then, maybe, prove it to yourself. ”

              I’m sorry, caeona, but you must know that isn’t how it works. You made the claim that there’s science which proves our minds control the physical world, so it’s your obligation to provide evidence in support of this claim. It isn’t our responsiblity to hunt for evidence, which in all likelihood does not exist, to support the claim you’ve made.

        • notnearlyanonymous May 19, 2015 / 7:45 pm

          Caeonamurdoch,
          “I’m sure we will find out if vaccines are good or bad.”
          It’s been a couple hundred years now, showing time and time again that the concept works and it works because it is using your natural immune system. We’re just tricking it into recognizing approximations of the real germs before the immune system encounters the real ones. Nothing magic. But like I said, a couple hundred years now that we’ve been using vaccines.
          How long should we wait to make this decision?

          So when we test vaccines on animals, or use vaccines to prevent rabies in dogs, is that their brains telling their bodies that it’s going to work the way vaccines are supposed to work?
          My dogs are clearly not that smart.

          If you don’t trust anybody to tell you what is good or bad for you, how do you make those decisions? Do you eat the mercury from old thermometers, breathe spray paint, eat lead-based paint to find out if they will hurt you? Do you spray millions of tons of CFC’s into the atmosphere to find out if it will affect the ozone layer? Is that you spraying all the chemtrails?

      • caeonamurdoch May 19, 2015 / 5:34 pm

        ALso, thank you. I just had to clarify that i am damn serious and i do fucking know what I’m talking about! and i can rant without grammar and swear too lololol 🙂
        ❤ lots of love you beautiful person

        • Chris May 19, 2015 / 7:49 pm

          “i do fucking know what I’m talking about!”

          Prove it. Provide actual scientific citations, not random Google searches and conspiracy rants.

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