The truth about vaccinations: Your physician knows more than the University of Google

“A cousin of my mom’s survived Polio and lived the rest of his life with its effects. He was not expected to live past his teens but made it to his 40s. I am grateful that modern science can protect us from Polio and other diseases and I choose to take advantage of modern science to give my kid better odds of not dying from a preventable disease. I had heard a lot of noise from people claiming vaccines caused Autism, but never saw any clear evidence. It just seemed to me like people really wanted to point to something as the cause and they latched onto vaccines.”–Jennifer

I have been getting into a lot of discussions about whether vaccines are safe in the last few days. I’m not sure if it’s because of a post going viral about a (terrible) Italian court ruling last year (In contrast, American courts side with doctors and scientists on vaccine safety) or Jenny McCarthy’s recent hiring as co-host on “The View”, or simply (as a friend suggested to me today) the fact that a new school year is starting soon and parents are having to provide vaccination records to schools.

“(I got my children vaccinated) because the science supports it and I don’t want my kids to die. And civic reasons. It’s so straightforward.”–Britta

Whatever the reason, this week I’ve been in many conversations with individuals staunchly against vaccinations, parents who are very upset at the idea of unvaccinated children putting their own kids at risk, and parents who are confused and worried and want to know how to make the best decision possible for their children’s safety. I’m writing this for the third group of parents.

What’s going on?
There has been a very steep decrease in the rate of vaccinations recently, particularly (but I want to stress not only) within communities of affluent, well-educated parents. [UPDATE: Keep in mind that there’s considerable diversity among anti-vaccine proponents. A conservative religious community here in Texas, opposed to vaccines because “faith should be enough”, is currently experiencing an outbreak of measles].

“It’s that whole natural, BPA-free, hybrid car community that says ‘we’re not going to put chemicals in our children,’” Shapiro told Salon. “It’s that same idea: ‘I’m going to be pure and I want to keep my child pure.’”

California law mandates that all students get vaccinated, but it also makes it easy to get exemptions for personal beliefs. And parents in tony places like Marin County are taking advantage of it in seemingly growing numbers. One public elementary school in Malibu, an affluent beach town just north of Los Angeles, reported that only 58 percent of their students are immunized — well below the recommended 90-plus percent level — according to Shapiro.

And it’s even worse in some of L.A.’s private schools, where as few as 20 percent of kids are vaccinated in some schools. “Yes, that’s right: Parents are willingly paying up to $25,000 a year to schools at which fewer than 1 in 5 kindergartners has been immunized against the pathogens causing such life-threatening illnesses as measles, polio, meningitis and pertussis (more commonly known as whooping cough),” she wrote. –from http://www.salon.com/2013/08/14/whats_with_rich_people_hating_vaccines/ (Emphasis mine)

This is particularly frustrating when there is overwhelming evidence that vaccinations DO NOT cause autism. As the wonderful blog Science Based Medicine puts it:

“At this point, the evidence is so utterly overwhelming that there is not a whiff of a hint of a whisper of a correlation between vaccines and autism that it has become irritating that antivaccine activists keep pressuring scientists to do the same study over and over again, coming up with the same results over and over again, and then seeing antivaccinationists fail to believe those same results over and over again. Apparently, antivaccine activists think that if the same sorts of studies are done enough times, there will be a positive result implicating vaccines as a risk factor for or contributing cause to autism.”

Why are parents choosing not to vaccinate their children?
I think there are several reasons, but they all may have some connection to misunderstanding of what the scientific evidence on this issue is, or resistance to perceived authority. In Western cultures, we’re accustomed to framing every public issue as two-sided. People who refuse to acknowledge that there’s legitimacy to the other side are “unfair.” I think this viewpoint is really muddling the vaccine safety conversation. When the media presents scientists on one side, and Natural News on the other, it’s creating a false equivalency. The anti-vaxxers have no credible scientific evidence supporting their position, but placing them opposite a scientist makes it seem like there are two legitimate sides to this debate. There aren’t. The simple fact is that there’s overwhelming scientific consensus that the MMR vaccine doesn’t cause autism.

“I unapolagetically vaccinate my kid, and it’s not just because that’s what you do, it’s because I really looked at what the science said and made a decision based on facts, evidence, and rational weighing of risk-benefit. I think the problem is that it’s easier to feel off the hook for risking your kids via inaction rather than action. But realistically, the risks of vaccination are so much less than the risks of what could happen if your child does get a vaccine-preventable disease, and you are also protecting those who *can’t* be vaccinated. That’s why I get a flu shot. Not because I am going to die of the flu, but to protect the elderly, infants, and immunocompromised folks I might come into contact with.” –Melissa (emphasis mine)

Do vaccines work?

Yes. Here are some of the diseases prevented with vaccinations:

 
   

from “Demographics of Unvaccinated Chidren”, National Network for Immunization Information.

Do vaccines cause autism?

No. As a starting point for you, here’s a roundup of trustworthy scientific resources for you to read on your own (everything is peer-reviewed, or contains links to peer-reviewed articles):

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK25349/

Vaccine Safety studies (a bunch of studies, with notes about what they mean): http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

Concerns about vaccine safety (this is really great, and written in layman’s language) http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-safety/concerns-about-vaccine-safety

How do we know that scientists and doctors are right?

I’ve been asked about this quite a bit lately. One person asked me “why aren’t we getting peered reviewed research from other points of view?” The reason is quite simple: there isn’t any.

Scientific research works like this:
You start with the specific questions “Does the MMR vaccine cause autism?”, “Does the MMR vaccine increase the risk of inflammatory bowel disease?” and so forth. You then design a study to test that question. It’s not starting from one “side” or the other, trying to seek proof for it. That’s the way politics works, not science. When you get an answer, it’s either “yes” or “no” (actually it tends to be “there is a statistically significant association between this drug and this disease” or “there is NOT a statistically significant association between this drug and this disease.”) Your results are submitted to experts for peer review. These experts then go over your results and methods with a fine-toothed comb, trying to find weaknesses in your approach, or over-interpretation of the results. They evaluate your statistics to make sure that they’re correct. If they decide that it’s acceptable (and this is usually a very hard test to pass), your paper gets published and is considered “peer-reviewed.” But that’s not the end.

Studies are then done by other research groups to both test and build upon your results. While the initial screen by peer reviewers is very stringent, it doesn’t always catch mistakes, and can miss identifying faked data (for example, Andrew Wakefield’s paper got past peer review because the reviewers didn’t catch that his data were fraudulent). However, all scientific research is iterative–that is, it builds upon a foundation created by other research. So if your results are wrong, or faked, it will quickly become obvious to other researchers who try to replicate or use them. Scientific consensus is VERY hard to achieve. So when it happens, pay attention.

Why do I (and others) keep harping on “peer-reviewed” studies? Why do I (and others) refuse to acknowledge the truth of what X blogger says?

Science operates based on the philosophy that the truth is knowable if we design experiments correctly, and we do enough of them to rigorously test our hypotheses. And I hope that you know by now that anyone with a keyboard can make stuff up. Peer review is how we test that someone isn’t making things up. Experts in your field have to agree with your conclusions.

But what about Andrew Wakefield’s research?

“I got my son vaccinated after doing research about it. I had been going through birthing classes that were against it, but the scientist in me questioned what they were saying. I found the info about the falsified info about autism. I still couldn’t believe (and still can’t) that parents would hold chicken pox parties. I’d had chicken pox as a kid, and I know about shingles. It just made sense to me.”–Charity

Andrew Wakefield faked his data for profit. His medical license has been revoked as a consequence. It’s important that people know that the the link between vaccines/autism is based on an outright lie–most of the other authors on the paper have removed their names from it. You can read more about this story here:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/14/andrew-wakefield-great-science-fraud/

What are the consequences of not vaccinating your children?

“We chose to vaccinate Vera on a regular schedule, and to be honest I did not do extensive research. I read enough to know that the studies showing an autism link were bad science and I found a pediatrician I really trusted and talked to her about it. I also really do believe that those of us with healthy kids should vaccinate to protect children who have compromised immune systems.”–Faye

Harm to your child:

Penn and Teller illustrate this beautifully (if profanely: language NSFW)

To put it simply, your child is at risk of contracting a preventable disease.

Image from http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/1404.jpg
Many of us (myself included) don’t remember polio epidemics. This was the treatment. Image from http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/1404.jpg

What happens in the absence of our vaccination program? Read about it here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

Harm to other children:

“Unvaccinated children are concentrated in particular states, increasing the risk of transmitting vaccine-preventable diseases to other unvaccinated children, undervaccinated children and fully vaccinated children.” http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/demographics-unvaccinated-children

One person with whom I was discussing this issue (he has not vaccinated his kids, but does homeschool them) put forth a hypothesis:

“but if you are correct, i guess in the near future the progressive states will have noticeable outbreaks (and not just the ones you read about), ones that touch somebody you know, as more and more hippy parents stop vaccinating their kids. stay clear of the pacific northwest or perish. ahaha. nah, we are growing super strong natural kids for the future here, and not ones reliant on medicines from a lab. we are sprouting wings and soon we shall fly to furthest regions of the universe and beyond”

I agree with that hypothesis. Unlike the rest of his comment, it’s quite scientific. IF vaccines are protective, and IF parents are choosing not to vaccinate, we should be seeing outbreaks of those diseases in states where the rate of non-vaccination is highest.

This is indeed the case. Here are two examples:

Incidents of whooping cough (pertussis) are significantly higher in states that easily allow parents exceptions from the vaccination. In Washington state alone, there was a 1,300% increase in cases.
Have you ever taken care of a child with pertussis? I have. This is what it’s like (warning: video of children in pain):

And cases of measles infection in the United States have already doubled since last year.

That’s just the beginning. This post is already too long, but I urge you to go to the CDC’s website and read about recent outbreaks. They are tied to regions where vaccine rates are low.

Final thoughts

Googling and listening to what people tell you over on parenting message boards, “Natural News”, and similar sites is not the same thing as advice from a trained physician. I really believe that the vast majority of parents who are leery of vaccinating their kids are simply confused because they’ve been given bad information.

“We live in a society, and our actions have consequences for others. It’s our responsibility to protect our children and our neighbors’ children. Plus our ancestors could only have dreamed of something that would protect their children from these horrible diseases.”–Mary

Vaccination is not just to protect your own child. It’s also a moral and civic issue. Remember that we are incredibly privileged in our society to have access to vaccines. In many places around the world, people don’t have easy access to them, and there are even some places where aid workers are killed for trying to administer vaccines. Our privilege confers responsibility as well. By vaccinating your children, you are also protecting other children (and adults) who can’t be vaccinated. Here is a really great explanation of this, and the concept of herd immunity.

“I chose to have my first child vaccinated because I paid some attention in science classes and it works. I paid better attention in history classes and have a sense of the suffering various preventable diseases have caused in the past and I didn’t want that for my child. After my first born spent a week in the hospital with an infection, I feel much more strongly about having my second child vaccinated. In that case, it wasn’t something that could have been vaccinated against, but there is no reason and no excuse for subjecting your child to the risk of that kind of suffering over a preventable disease. It’s irresponsible and cruel.”–Eric

Wakefield, McCarthy, Kennedy and other leaders of the movement are deceiving you. They bear responsibility for the deaths of children. That’s why I keep speaking out on this issue.

I hope that I’ve provided you with a starting point from which to do your own research. If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask me here, or on twitter, or by email (link at the top of this page), or–even better–ask your physician!

UPDATE: I wrote a tutorial/example of how to critically read a vaccine safety study here. If you wish to do your own research, I suggest that reading the primary, peer-reviewed literature is a vastly better approach than relying on books/Facebook memes/discussion forums. Hopefully the tools you’ll find in that post (and this one) will be helpful.

—————————————————————————-

Edited to remove Lyme disease from list of vaccine preventable illnesses. There’s a vaccine currently in clinical trials, but it’s not fully tested or available yet. Thanks to “justreadingyourblog” for pointing that out to me.

2,038 thoughts on “The truth about vaccinations: Your physician knows more than the University of Google

  1. mubarak December 7, 2015 / 4:56 pm

    haii i have one doubt about vaccination in hiv
    in ELISA method for hiv we r detecting hiv antibodys by using of antigen so if we inject the hiv anti gen in to a host then he can produce anti body aginest the hiv if it is possible
    my emil id mubarakmubbu810@gmail.com

    • Chris December 8, 2015 / 3:26 pm

      There is no vaccination for HIV. The difficulty is that is likes to hide from the immune system, and it is always changing.

    • Scott Nelson December 8, 2015 / 3:36 pm

      That method has been tried. Unfortunately, when T cells respond to HIV, they become infected, and the process of responding actually activates the HIV virus. Additionally, the HIV virus has an extremely high mutation rate, so even if you do respond and make neutralizing antibodies, the virus quickly mutates and resistant forms take over.

      A lot of research is going into finding invariant parts of HIV that human are capable of raising antibodies to-but given the variability of the virus and the variability of humans, its not easy.

      The HIV ELISA does look for antibodies to HIV proteins (typically p24) but the antibodies that are produced do not slow the virus from infecting cells

  2. Scott December 11, 2015 / 3:33 am

    You are part of the collective fear programming. There are so many to live a healthy life of which few western medicine doctors know. There is not even nutrition curriculum at medical schools.
    Western medicine is archaic and vaccinating your child is feeding them poison.
    Your research is only based on studies?
    Have you read dr. Mercola, dr. Schulze, listened to other brilliant minds on vaccines? Or do you only listen to people that have letters after their names md, Ph.D. Etc..
    I have countless stories about the horros of vaccines, heavy metal poisoning etc. perhaps you think male circumcision is a must as well?

    • Scott Nelson December 11, 2015 / 9:52 am

      So Scott, since you don’t believe in modern chemistry, biology ect…. I trust that you think that sewage is perfectly safe to drink and eat and that diseases are caused by disfavor by the gods. The people you mention have degrees after their name (as do I)(that’s the Dr. part) but have thoroughly sold themselves out and have based their beliefs on the almighty dollar or pound. Ask them for some peer reviewed and replicated studies of their beliefs-they’ll be very hard to come by.

      As for people living perfectly healthy lives without modern medicine, that’s true-they tend to be quite healthy until they die of a bacterial infection, vaccine preventable disease or trauma-three things that modern medicine is quite adept at treating. Before modern medicine, you were quite lucky to make to 15, giving a lifespan at birth of ~20-30 yrs, although if you made it past 15 yrs you might live quite a while. Those numbers didn’t budge much until the introduction of vaccines and sewage control (mid-1800’s)

      • Chris December 11, 2015 / 7:39 pm

        Because I looked for a “Dr. Schulze”, I now have popup ads for that idiot “HerbDoc” popping up on my screen. Le sigh.

      • Scott December 15, 2015 / 11:37 pm

        Yes western medicine can and does serve us. But Modern Western Medicine is based on a narrow “scientific” model, and arrogantly ignores and rejects therapies and entire medical systems that don’t fit this model.
        Instead of treating the underlying causes or imbalances, Doctors often merely manage symptoms.
        One of the biggest issues is that doctors see the human body as a machine with separate parts that can be treated independently rather than as an integrated whole. In addition the mind and body are also seen as separate independent entities and emotions are often ignored.
        Have you read anything about the mind body connection?
        How do you eat? Do you follow a typical American diet of non-organic genetically modified food?

        The damage caused by vaccines can no longer be ignored, nor can it be dismissed as a necessary evil. By 2010, the U.S. Court of Claims had awarded nearly $2 billion dollars to vaccine victims for their catastrophic vaccine injuries. Currently, this number is believed to now be $3 billion dollars.

        Did you know that most of these crap vaccines are made in China? Do you have any idea how toxic this crap is?

        Some vaccine ingredients (listed by Dr. Mercola) include the following (however, more ingredients as listed by the vaccine manufacturer’s themselves) may be found at http://www.vaccine.procon.org:

        aluminum hydroxide

        aluminum phosphate

        ammonium sulfate

        amphotericin B

        animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, sheep blood, rabbit brain, dog kidney, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, calf (bovine) serum, fetal bovine serum, casein, porcine (pig pancreas), hydrolyzed gelatin

        betapropiolactone

        formaldehyde

        formalin

        glycerol

        human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)

        monosodium glutamate (MSG)

        neomycin

        neomycin sulfate

        phenol red indicator

        phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)•

        potassium diphosphate

        potassium monophosphate

        polymyxin B

        polysorbate 20

        polysorbate 80

        MRC5 proteins (from human cells)

        sorbitol

        sucrose

        thimerosal (ethyl mercury)

        tributyl phosphate (a plasticizer)

        Please explore more..

        “There is no such thing as a safe vaccine.”

        Movie: Silent Epidemic; The Untold Story of Vaccines by Gary Null

        (50 Vaccine Facts): http://vaccinationdanger.blogspot.ae/2012/10/50-vaccine-facts.html

        Peer-Reviewed Papers on Dangers of Vaccines:

        http://www.vaccines.net/newpage11.htm

        • Scott Nelson December 16, 2015 / 8:13 am

          Scott-First, let me advise you to take a course in chemistry. “Dr.” Mercola like to throw about big words to scare people, if you know what they mean, they lose all their power. Aluminum salts are almost certainly higher in freshly grown, organic produce than anything else-they are the common components of dirt. Various phosphate salts are routinely used buffers in your body, by your body. There has been EXTENSIVE explanation of this throughout the comments of this article.

          There is absolutely NO evidence that transgenic crops are any danger to anyone, and in many cases have fewer pesticide residues on them than traditional crops, owing to the fact that the crops do not require pesticides to protect the crop-because they protect themselves. Organic crops may also have considerable pesticides residues on them-they are just organically acquired, and they can be very potent-such as rotenone.

          As to the allegation that western medicine doesn’t use other modalities, that is just pure crap. If you have hypertension, your doctor will almost certainly advise you to reduce your stress level, lose weight, exercise, and eat more vegetables-before they start drugs. Ditto for hypercholestemia, unless your genetic make up is such that these things won’t help. There is an entire branch of medicine called behavioral medicine.

          Medicine is actively investigating meditation as we speak, and in fact the Dali Lama (along with numerous other people who practice meditation) has been in a fMRI machine several times so that scientists can investigate the effect of meditation on the mind and body. There are many investigations going one investigating the interaction of the various organ systems in the body, I’d be glad to point you to entire journals such as Pyschooncology and Pyschoneuroendocrinology. Do you know what they alternative medicine that works? MEDICINE

        • Chris December 16, 2015 / 9:58 am

          “The damage caused by vaccines can no longer be ignored, nor can it be dismissed as a necessary evil. By 2010, the U.S. Court of Claims had awarded nearly $2 billion dollars to vaccine victims for their catastrophic vaccine injuries. Currently, this number is believed to now be $3 billion dollars.”

          Here is a little math problem for you: go to the first table of the latest NVICP statistics. Look at the last row labeled “Grand Totat.” Find the number for the total vaccines given during the set time period (2,532,428,541 vaccines). Then run your finger over the compensated claim column, and get that number (2068 paid claims). Now take the first number and divide it by the second number. What is the result, and what does it mean?

          “Did you know that most of these crap vaccines are made in China? Do you have any idea how toxic this crap is?”

          But I thought you liked things that were not “Western.” Are you now moving that arbitrary line between the “Western” and “Eastern” part of this globe? So what happened to all those people who were working in the vaccine manufacturing plants in North Carolina and New York state? Or is that just another made scare tactic?

    • Chris December 11, 2015 / 11:46 am

      “Western medicine is archaic and vaccinating your child is feeding them poison.”

      Is medicine from Japan okay? They were the ones who came up with colonoscopies, statins, the DTaP and varicella vaccines. Or is the arbitrary line of what is “Eastern” versus “Western” somewhere else on this round planet?

      Also, please tell us which poison in any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule is more dangerous than tetanospasmin.

      “Have you read dr. Mercola, dr. Schulze, listened to other brilliant minds on vaccines? Or do you only listen to people that have letters after their names md, Ph.D. Etc..”

      A word of advice, Scott, do not trust “doctors” who have a tiny picture of a shopping cart on their webpage. They don’t care about your health, just how much you pay for the stuff they sell. Or have you already bought a tanning system from Mercola and a colon cleanse kit from Schulze?

      Also Mercola does have a “DO” after his name. He did graduate as a osteopathic doctor (which in the USA is equivalent to an MD). Schulze, on the other hand, “trained” with naturopaths so he is “Not a Doctor.” And depending on his genetic heart disorder*, he can live for for a long time, but even with the herbs, special foods, supplements, etc… it could literally break at any time.

      parent of someone who has one variant, a type that sometimes diagnosed in people from age two to sixty only after “sudden cardiac death.” Our kid’s was found due to a heart murmur at the appointment for a tetanus booster. He did get surgery after a few years, especially the one year where there were a few 911 calls to our house.

    • rosross December 12, 2015 / 7:26 pm

      It is the modern pastime to spread the propaganda that modern medicine has saved us.

      Crunching numbers to come up with the fantasy that the human organism did not live as long in the past as now, falls into the realm of lies, damned lies and statistics.

      Where I lived in Africa the average longevity was 42. Did everyone die at 42? Nope. Plenty lived into their eighties and nineties. The figure of 42 comes from crunching the numbers for child and infant mortality and the impact of malaria and HIV/Aids….. all of them much greater because of poor nutrition, sanitation and hygiene.

      Engineers, not doctors were responsible for improvements in health and longevity – and farmers – better nutrition, sanitation and hygiene, where applied, saw infant/maternal mortality figures plummet, along with the disappearance of epidemics and a major decline in mortality from disease.

      Where modern medicine made a difference was in accidents/trauma/crisis, but if you take out those stats, not wanting to prejudice the final picture, then modern medicine has played very little part in improved health and longevity.

      Research done on Egyptian and South American mummies showed that many people lived to very, very ripe old ages and one presumes they did so because they had good nutrition, sanitation and hygiene. They probably also had good forms of holistic medicine and the Egyptians were talented surgeons as well.

      The irony and tragedy is that we now have higher and rising levels of chronic and serious disease, more so in children, in this over-medicalised, and over vaccinated age.

      We have children and young people experiencing cancer, the biggest killer being brain cancer, in ways never seen before along with heart disease and strokes.

      We have epidemics in children of Diabetes, Autism, Asthma, Coeliac Disease, Behavioural and Learning Difficulties, Auto-immune Disease, Allergies.

      Whatever part Allopathic or modern medicine is playing it is not diminishing disease and it is not making or keeping people healthier.

      What is most criminal is that it is the third and heading for second, biggest killer after heart disease and cancer, and yet points the finger at other medical systems like Homeopathy, Nutritional and Herbal medicine and Acupuncture which heal and cure without the kill and injure rate of Allopathy.

      • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 8:30 pm

        Are you badly-educated that you’ve never heard of averages?

      • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 8:31 pm

        It has been pointed out to you before that cancer is not the leading killer of children. Short-term memory issues, or merely a commitment to superstition so deeply ingrained that you feel you must lie for it?

      • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 8:32 pm

        Oh…neither are heart disease, strokes, or “allopathic” medicine?

  3. shay simmons December 11, 2015 / 8:36 am

    the rigorous scientific approach

    Ah yes, “we don’t know how it works but it does!” is a rigorous scientific approach.

    • rosross December 12, 2015 / 7:14 pm

      We don’t know how it works but it does —— like gravity!

      Yep, that kind of rigorous scientific approach. You observe, you gather data empirically, you make use of what you learn but you don’t actually understand how it works. Same for Homeopathy.

      Quote: We know more about what’s inside an atom than we do about why a ball comes back down when we throw it in the air. For all science knows, it’s because of ghosts.

      http://www.cracked.com/article_19442_8-simple-questions-you-wont-believe-science-cant-answer_p2.html

      • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 7:17 pm

        There are many questions for science still to answer — but those answers can’t violate the basic laws of mathematics, chemistry, biology and physics.

        You’re like the people who were rushing around at this time last year insisting that the Ebola virus was airborne.

        • rosross December 12, 2015 / 7:29 pm

          And if the answer to how gravity works did violate the basic laws…. no, let’s be correct …. did violet what science currently believes are the basic laws of mathematics, chemistry, biology and physics – what then?

          I had not realised it was a scientific criteria that no advance could be made unless it validated the currently held beliefs in regard to ‘basic laws.’ How is that rigorous science?

          • rosross December 12, 2015 / 7:30 pm

            Violate not violet – wish this had an edit function – but hey, violet can work as well.

          • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 8:29 pm

            It doesn’t.

        • rosross December 12, 2015 / 8:33 pm

          To be correct, you need to say, the ‘basic laws’ as understood at this point in time of mathematics, chemistry, biology and physics.

          There were plenty of things which ‘violated’ and by that you mean challenged, the ‘basic laws’ as understood at the time in the past.

          Who says what a ‘basic law’ is beyond a current belief?

          Quantum mechanics upset, or violated, quite a lot of what was considered to be ‘basic law’ and science managed to get over the shock and horror of that, even if Einstein never quite managed it before he died.

          It is ridiculous to even talk about basic laws when so much is unknown.

          Basic laws are in essence meaningless since unless you fully understand absolutely everything about this world, there are no ‘basic laws’ to be determined. There are in fact no laws.

          If it is discovered that this world, as a great physicist, astronomer and mathematician, James Jeans, described it – is a ‘great thought.’ then all the basic material laws become as nothing in any absolute sense.

          If all is thought, mental, and that determines the material world, then all basic laws pertaining to materiality can change.

          Quote: What we perceive as our physical material world, is really not physical or material at all, in fact, it is far from it. This has been proven time and time again by multiple Nobel Prize (among many other scientists around the world) winning physicists, one of them being Niels Bohr, a Danish Physicist who made significant contributions to understanding atomic structure and quantum theory.

          “If quantum mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet. Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.” – Niels Bohr
          http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/09/27/this-is-the-world-of-quantum-physics-nothing-is-solid-and-everything-is-energy/

          It is amusing that science can accept that ‘everything is energy’ and yet reject Homeopathy because it claims to work on the material, through an energy level.

          Double standards, methinks.

          The irony is I have far greater trust in Science than any of you and am the true sceptic. I question everything, including what science says, but I also know that as a system it is designed to grow, change, develop and evolve, albeit more slowly given the Luddites who currently ‘staff’ it, but it will get there and I am sure many, many, many things will be violated.

          It was ever thus and it is required.

          • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 8:34 pm

            “If all is thought, mental, and that determines the material world, then all basic laws pertaining to materiality can change.” To bad for you it doesn’t determine the material world.

            • rosross December 12, 2015 / 8:54 pm

              Yeah, thought that might be a bit too complex for you.

              • shay simmons December 12, 2015 / 8:57 pm

                No — woo is woo. Not hard to recognize. No wonder you are completely unable to answer any of the questions you’ve been asked about immunology, homeopathy, and biology.

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